269 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Indeed. They used the krogan to clean up their own rachni mess. The krogan is entierly their fault. But the genophage was a necessary step to prevent a huge problem from becoming an unsolvable problem, self inflicted or not.

I admit, because of the many failures that occured the First Genophage was needed. However, the actions of the Council Races after the Genophage and their hellbent policy that the Genophage, as it is, will always be needed is something I don't agree with since it generalizes all Krogan as warmongers. I mean, they would easily make an alternative to dead babies by simply making the chances of a Female Krogan being born far less likely.

[Bebbe777]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Bebbe777 wrote...

But he is uniting the clans and with Grunt at his side he may very well succeed. RIght now he is the leader of the strongest clan and he is directing all focus on breeding, non-violent research and diplomacy. 

What happens when all the krogan elsewhere that he doesn't control decide they want more living space? Krogan aggression isn't a choice, it's a matter of genetics. Unless the salarians can somehow fix the inherit aggression of the krogan, they will forever be a threat. Krogan are tribal, and while he has the numbers now, if the 'phage was cured the numbers of opposite krogan would be equal.

As I said before. Change the genophage so that Krogan gets the same birth rate as humans or turians. That way we have eliminated the one thing they have against us and their race wont die out. 

[Count Viceroy]

Elite Midget wrote...

I admit, because of the many failures that occured the First Genophage was needed. However, the actions of the Council Races after the Genophage and their hellbent policy that the Genophage, as it is, will always be needed is something I don't agree with since it generalizes all Krogan as warmongers. I mean, they would easily make an alternative to dead babies by simply making the chances of a Female Krogan being born far less likely.

I think the krogan sort of became a non issue after they were neutered. They don't contribute with anything vital in the galaxy appart for super reslilient soldiers and thus the incentive to even touch the krogan issue, which I think many of the other species see as 'dirty business' is rather non existant.

[ReiSilver]

Elite Midget wrote...

Yet the Council Races didn't try to help the Krogan adapt to Galactic Society after they rapidly uplifted them as vanguard against the Rachnii and they didn't try to help the Krogan adapt to Galactic Society after the Genophage. Nor after the Second Genophage either.

You say it like changing the way a society works is easy, especially from the outside. We don't know if there were some members of council races that tried to help out in that way, there might have been, there might still be some trying to influence a change. But just look at the resistance Wrex is facing and he's a Krogan himself.
Changing the way a society works take a long, long time and it's very hard.

Modifié par ReiSilver, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Count Viceroy]

Bebbe777 wrote...

As I said before. Change the genophage so that Krogan gets the same birth rate as humans or turians. That way we have eliminated the one thing they have against us and their race wont die out. 

That is exactly what the 'phage is doing. It's not a sterility plauge, Mordin says this outright. It adjusts the viable birthrate to pre-industrial levels. You want to open the taps just a bit more? How is that any less morally repungant? They'd still be neutered. It's krogan behaviour and culture that's actually killing them, their birthrate before the 'phage made this a non issue though.

Even if they were in line with our birth rate, they'd still be just as aggressive and warlike. And still a problem.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 16 novembre 2010 - 03:02 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

The krogan did invade, when they tried to "colonize" already inhabited worlds. Calling it a rebellion is giving them a bit too much credit. 

I imagine the krogan tell the tale a bit differently.  I'd like to hear both sides.

[Elite Midget]

That had many years to go at it. Things would have been much different if they didn't ignore the Krogan afterwards since they had the Turians to replace them as the Military Arm of the Council. That and the amount of money they threw at the Second Genophage shows that they have the will, influence, and cash to throw at any problem they have untill they get results. Not to mention the many secret missions the STG conducts on the Krogan homeworld.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, I don't think they would. They see nothing wrong about war, and softening their position would just be making them seem weaker.

[Count Viceroy]

Elite Midget wrote...

That had many years to go at it. Things would have been much different if they didn't ignore the Krogan afterwards since they had the Turians to replace them as the Military Arm of the Council. That and the amount of money they threw at the Second Genophage shows that they have the will, influence, and cash to throw at any problem they have untill they get results. Not to mention the many secret missions the STG conducts on the Krogan homeworld.

It's easier to repair and maintain something than it is to rebuild it from the ground. Why would they risk curing the krogans? What gain is there? And does it outweigh the enormous risks? I'd say not at this time. The 'phage is only a temporary solution certainly, but curing it now would result in the same issues again.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 16 novembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Elite Midget]

The gain would be establishing them as a Council Race that contributes to the Galaxy as a whole. I mean, they're spending trillions of credits doing nothing but making sure they're uner a constant Genophage. I would say it's worth a try to slowly ease up on the Genophage and uplift them culturally and not just militaristically like they have been doing since finding the Krogan.

[Bebbe777]

The most important issue right now is to ensure that the Krogan species survive. To totally cure the Genophage right now is bad, I agree on that.

[ReiSilver]

Elite Midget wrote...

That had many years to go at it. Things would have been much different if they didn't ignore the Krogan afterwards since they had the Turians to replace them as the Military Arm of the Council. That and the amount of money they threw at the Second Genophage shows that they have the will, influence, and cash to throw at any problem they have untill they get results. Not to mention the many secret missions the STG conducts on the Krogan homeworld.

Where is your proof that they ignored them? Where is your proof there are no members of council races working on it?
You think changing a the way a society a society works should only take a few years? Take a look at Earth, people have been fighting to chance society's views on women, the disabled, the poor, people of different races for years and guess what? They're still fighting for change and there are still people fighting to get us back to the 1950s.

[Elite Midget]

If they had tried than why isn't it ever mentioned? Hell, the Krogan even mention that they were used, neutered, and than abandon. If the other races bothered to try than why is it that no Krogan ever mentions it? Maybe it's because they aren't doing anything at all other than monitoring the Genophage. Yeah, that sounds like it.



Also, who said a few years? The Genophage hit a LONG time ago. What did the Council races do for all that time? They ignored the Krogan, that's what. Only when did the Krogan started resisting the GEnophage did they start paying more attention. Not good attention, mind you, since they just wanted to keep the Krogan as they were an under constant Genophage.

[Count Viceroy]

Elite Midget wrote...

The gain would be establishing them as a Council Race that contributes to the Galaxy as a whole. I mean, they're spending trillions of credits doing nothing but making sure they're uner a constant Genophage. I would say it's worth a try to slowly ease up on the Genophage and uplift them culturally and not just militaristically like they have been doing since finding the Krogan.

This is all well and good, if the krogan had any desire in it, which they don't. The only reason there's krogan even willing to talk at the moment is because they've actually realised that they can't act the way they'd do normally because of the 'phage. Wrex clan does what he says and think what he thinks cause he's the strongest, for now. 

Solve the krogan aggression and I'd gladly welcome them into the galaxy.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 16 novembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Elite Midget]

The Krogan never deny the Rebellions either. Hell, they don't even apologize for it because they did what they would normally do on their homeworld and what they were taught by the Council races for the Rachnii War.

[ReiSilver]

Elite Midget wrote...

If they had tried than why isn't it ever mentioned? Hell, the Krogan even mention that they were used, neutered, and than abandon. If the other races bothered to try than why is it that no Krogan ever mentions it? Maybe it's because they aren't doing anything at all other than monitoring the Genophage. Yeah, that sounds like it.

Also, who said a few years? The Genophage hit a LONG time ago. What did the Council races do for all that time? They ignored the Krogan, that's what. Only when did the Krogan started resisting the GEnophage did they start paying more attention. Not good attention, mind you, since they just wanted to keep the Krogan as they were an under constant Genophage.

We also never see any female Krogan, or female Turians but they apparently exist.
The Krogan have plenty of reasons to be bitter and they probably wouldn't see aliens trying to change their world view to be helping. That's why Krogan wouldn't mention it, the only reason we know Wrex tried to change things earlier than ME2 is because he told us he did, none of the other Krogans we meet ever talk about what happened with his father.
It's also not centrally important to the game so it's not included. You have no proof they arn't trying.

If we were to take your logic there would also be no innocent/successful Cerberus operations because all we ever see in the game/in the novels is when they end in a blood bath or when they're using unwilling human test subjects from torturous experiments. Yet Cerberus supporters keep claiming it must be so.
Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it can't be happening. All you have is a theory, I'm offering you a different theory.

[Count Viceroy]

Elite Midget wrote...

The Krogan never deny the Rebellions either. Hell, they don't even apologize for it because they did what they would normally do on their homeworld and what they were taught by the Council races for the Rachnii War.

Exactly, if someone else have something you want, you fight over it and the winner gets the spoils.

[Elite Midget]

Count Viceroy wrote...

This is all well and good, if the krogan had any desire in it, which they don't. The only reason there's krogan even willing to talk at the moment is because they've actually realised that they can't act the way they'd do normally because of the 'phage. Wrex clan does what he says and think what he thinks cause he's the strongest, for now. 

Solve the krogan aggression and I'd gladly welcome them into the galaxy.

Female Clans and Wrex's united Clans agree with a path outside of war. They're still Krogans yet they proven that their race isn't only defined by their aggression. Wrex gained power for a reason. After all, he didn't even have standing in his Clan anymore intill he returns in ME1 and shows them a way outside of constant warfare. After all, when humans were cavemen they were just as aggressive as the Krogan were except they weren't given nukes before their time.

[Elite Midget]

ReiSilver wrote...
We also never see any female Krogan, or female Turians but they apparently exist.
The Krogan have plenty of reasons to be bitter and they probably wouldn't see aliens trying to change their world view to be helping. That's why Krogan wouldn't mention it, the only reason we know Wrex tried to change things earlier than ME2 is because he told us he did, none of the other Krogans we meet ever talk about what happened with his father.
It's also not centrally important to the game so it's not included. You have no proof they arn't trying.

If we were to take your logic there would also be no innocent/successful Cerberus operations because all we ever see in the game/in the novels is when they end in a blood bath or when they're using unwilling human test subjects from torturous experiments. Yet Cerberus supporters keep claiming it must be so.
Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it can't be happening. All you have is a theory, I'm offering you a different theory.

Krogan females are constantly mentioned and we aren't ever told if a Turian woman looks any different from a Turian Man. We do know of their existence because they're mentioned and Garrus even has a funny story about a Turian Woman. However, no Krogan ever mentions any goodwill done on their behalf by other races and not a single Council Race mentions doing good for the Krogan. Simply put, no goodwill has ever occured and they view the Krogan as Outcasts and a mistake just like the racism exihibited against the Quarians.

Actually, Shepard and the Normandy SR2 are proof that Cerberus has success in the ME games. Thus it's proof that Cerberus doesn't fail at everything though it also proves they only do things that benefit Cerberus.

[Count Viceroy]

Elite Midget wrote...

Female Clans and Wrex's united Clans agree with a path outside of war. They're still Krogans yet they proven that their race isn't only defined by their aggression. Wrex gained power for a reason. After all, he didn't even have standing in his Clan anymore intill he returns in ME1 and shows them a way outside of constant warfare. After all, when humans were cavemen they were just as aggressive as the Krogan were except they weren't given nukes before their time.

All of that is because of the 'phage. If it didn't exsist, neither would coexisting clans and 'peacetalks'  There's absolutely nothing that points or even suggest that krogan would continue this line of behaviour if there wasn't a necessesity for it.  If the phage goes it's back to square one. 

And the krogan are even less likely to respond to outside influence after it got them into this mess the first time.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 16 novembre 2010 - 03:33 .

[Elite Midget]

I already said the First Genophage was needed because of the many failures that occured after discovering the Krogan. Also, I'll point to human cavemen again. At their time nothing suggested they would ever get past their warmongering lifestyle yet here we are with Modern man who has tamed their inner beast. Should Cavemen have been given a Genophage had they ended up as the Krogan and followed their warmongering instincts after getting nukes too early?



The Genophage can be cured over a period of time. By that time the Council could be offering silent support for Wrex and the Female Clans while providing them with aid to tame the inner beasts of the Krogan people.

[ReiSilver]

Elite Midget wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...
We also never see any female Krogan, or female Turians but they apparently exist.
The Krogan have plenty of reasons to be bitter and they probably wouldn't see aliens trying to change their world view to be helping. That's why Krogan wouldn't mention it, the only reason we know Wrex tried to change things earlier than ME2 is because he told us he did, none of the other Krogans we meet ever talk about what happened with his father.
It's also not centrally important to the game so it's not included. You have no proof they arn't trying.

If we were to take your logic there would also be no innocent/successful Cerberus operations because all we ever see in the game/in the novels is when they end in a blood bath or when they're using unwilling human test subjects from torturous experiments. Yet Cerberus supporters keep claiming it must be so.
Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it can't be happening. All you have is a theory, I'm offering you a different theory.

Krogan females are constantly mentioned and we aren't ever told if a Turian woman looks any different from a Turian Man. We do know of their existence because they're mentioned and Garrus even has a funny story about a Turian Woman. However, no Krogan ever mentions any goodwill done on their behalf by other races and not a single Council Race mentions doing good for the Krogan. Simply put, no goodwill has ever occured and they view the Krogan as Outcasts and a mistake just like the racism exihibited against the Quarians.

Actually, Shepard and the Normandy SR2 are proof that Cerberus has success in the ME games. Thus it's proof that Cerberus doesn't fail at everything though it also proves they only do things that benefit Cerberus.

Remember waking up the the defense drones killing everyone? Seems only thing Cerberus can do without a catastrophy happening is upgrade a ship from existing plans. Even then we don't know how many accidents occured while making it resulting in lost lives...

I would love if Turian females looked no different to the males (I even like to pretend the Salarian council member is a female) but we have yet to have even one on screen turian refferred to as female. Thus no proof that we have ever seen one.

Again if we were to take your logic the council would be doing nothing but sitting down twiddling their thumbs 99% of the time. Yet since they are a large governing body we can assume they are very busy with all sorts of things. One of which could be working to help Krogan society. There were Asari inviting Krogan to join in a demonstartion during a news report in ME1, they still had a Krogan statue on the Prisidium, it's not impossible.
You could be right, but it's still just a theory.