269 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

The Council isn't twidleing their thumbs since they're taking care of their interest and are currently touring the Galaxy to promote their agenda and have other races join the Citadel Alliance. As for Cerberus... The Normandy SR1 and SR2 come to mind as successes. Though the SR2 needed alien technology to be up to snuff but whatever.

[ReiSilver]

Elite Midget wrote...

The Council isn't twidleing their thumbs since they're taking care of their interest and are currently touring the Galaxy to promote their agenda and have other races join the Citadel Alliance. As for Cerberus... The Normandy SR1 and SR2 come to mind as successes. Though the SR2 needed alien technology to be up to snuff but whatever.

SR1 was made by the Alliance and Turians

[Xilizhra]

Human cavemen weren't warmongering, by the way. Not only is the very word stupid and a throwback to old stereotypes, but it was settlement and agriculture that led to greater, more aggressive wars.

[InHarmsWay]

ReiSilver wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

The Council isn't twidleing their thumbs since they're taking care of their interest and are currently touring the Galaxy to promote their agenda and have other races join the Citadel Alliance. As for Cerberus... The Normandy SR1 and SR2 come to mind as successes. Though the SR2 needed alien technology to be up to snuff but whatever.

SR1 was made by the Alliance and Turians

Through heavy Cerberus influence. Ask EDI after she is unshackled.

[HalfTangible]

Re-ensalving and destroying the Geth are based off hatred and racist tendencies. The one who wants Peace is on the minority said and is mocked about it.

Tali/Legion - Of course the Geth would be outraged. The Quarians were caturing Geth, torturing them, taking them apart, and were trying to enslave them again. Any race would be outraged over such experiments. Just like Aliens hate Cerberus for their experiments. Besides... Legion, logically, wanted to inform the rest of the Geth because such actions are an atrocity and endanger 'all' Geth. By not informing the Geth it means that Legion is endangering all Geth against the Quarian racist agenda. Tali would have gladly done the same thing as well.

Mordin/Krogan - It doesn't keep the race stable since it ignores outside factors such as the Krogan Homeworld and the many warring Krogan factions. The Krogan still fight eachother but this time they do it to obtain the precious few females that can give birth live children. Many Krogan resent being outcast and forgotten by the other races who had long since abandoned them. Mordin also sees it as okay to punish current day Krogan for the sins of their ancestors not to mention that he never factored him how the Genophage effects Krogan mentally. Which is why he's shocked that Krogan Women are willing to die to give birth to live children.

Council/Humans - Maybe, though it doesn't explain why they ignored humanity in ME2. Hell, they didn't even try to help the Alliance set up AA towers.

Reenslavement is also a minority. Most want to drive the geth off of their homeworld. Whether or not they want to utterly destroy them is not fully explored.

T/L: And Legion would have tried to stop Tali. Neither of them were being racist.

M/K: It has been stated that the war factors were taken into account. Mordin stated that he modified the genophage to keep the krogan population stable. Whether or not it's racist, it is a FACT that most krogan love to fight. It is also a fact that, up until the genophage was introduced, the krogan's birth rate was incredibly high. So high, in fact, that .1% of those births were all that was needed to keep the population the same size from gen to gen.

C/H: Cuz they're political scheming asstards.

[Elite Midget]

Yes they were warmongering... Humanity was built upon their conquests and warlike ways. Than later on it was again built on those warlike tendenciesn by conquering the Americas and displacing the people there as well. What can I say? We humans are just as warlike as the Krogan only we've learned to control these tendencies and aggressions.



It reminds me of humans as we grow. When we're children we're used to being given what we want and have a tendency to kick and scream if we're denied. Approaching teen years we go through puberty and the bigger of us assert dominance upon others through physical or social means. When we don't get what we want he find means to get it though if violence can get it than it's the first course of action unless values are taught to us. Than we reach adulthood and the pent of aggression of the teen years has passed and many adults develop into a more passive and healthy lifestyle.



Krogan were children when they were discovered and given WMDs. Than they rebelled during their teenage years since the Council said no to them for the first time thus they reacted in the only way they understood since the Council refused to educate the Krogan. Mommy, Salarians, than reveals a virus to 'control' the Krogan and Daddy, Turians, uses it to quickly end the dispute.



Many, many, many years later the Krogan are finally reaching the end of their teen years and Krogan scientist, such as Okeer, start popping up and disproving the racist notion that Krogan Scientist don't exist or that they can't change. Than Wrex, and the Female Clans, start demanding that a path outside of violence must be taken and slowly many Krogan, having survived puberty, grow to understand that killing for selfish reasons isn't the best path after all for the Krogan Race.

[Xilizhra]

Yes they were warmongering... Humanity was built upon their conquests and warlike ways. Than later on it was again built on those warlike tendenciesn by conquering the Americas and displacing the people there as well. What can I say? We humans are just as warlike as the Krogan only we've learned to control these tendencies and aggressions.

First of all, that's a godsdamned enormous time gap you've got going there, as well as a certain amount of racism (or at least Eurocentrism) by implying "humanity" was built on European conquest of North America. But all that is disregarding the fact that we don't have a hardwired urge to kill everything built into us.

Many, many, many years later the Krogan are finally reaching the end of their teen years and Krogan scientist, such as Okeer, start popping up and disproving the racist notion that Krogan Scientist don't exist or that they can't change. Than Wrex, and the Female Clans, start demanding that a path outside of violence must be taken and slowly many Krogan, having survived puberty, grow to understand that killing for selfish reasons isn't the best path after all for the Krogan Race.

I hope you're right, then.

[Sajuro]

Xilizhra wrote...

Human cavemen weren't warmongering, by the way. Not only is the very word stupid and a throwback to old stereotypes, but it was settlement and agriculture that led to greater, more aggressive wars.

Because war.... war never changes.
I would have to dispute that, the more violent peoples tended to be the nomads and herders who tended to have more militaristic views since they would often have to take back grazing land from other nomads. They just ended up killing all of the early agricultural settlements or absorbing them.

[Elite Midget]

War does change...



In the past we used clubs to fight each other. Now we use WMDs to deter each other from wailing on each other.



It was just an example that I can relate to more since I'm a Filipino American and owe my existence over that conquest. Though would you rather I mention the Roman Conquests, or the ambition of Alexander The Great, that ended up changing the Modern World, at their time, as they knew it? Also, Krogan aren't hardwired to kill everything built into them. The many more passive Krogan that we meet in ME2 prove that such a statement is a generalization and outright racism at times.



Such as the Krogan that wants a Persidium Fish. Had he been hardwired to kill than why didn't he just start killing people untill he found/got his fish? He doesn't even seem mad if you tell him that there are no fish and is instead just sad that his dream will never come true. If he was hardwired to kill than why didn't he break out into a Rage and start killing people since there are no fish which was his lifelong dream?

[HolyJellyfish]

Keep in mind the krogan were completely responsible for their nuclear holocaust, way before the salarians stepped in and gave them advanced technology.



Also, keep in mind the krogan weren't always nomadic. The codex explains very clearly that the krogan once were a society much like our own, but were scattered in a post-nuclear world.



Even Wrex admits that a majority of his race is too stupid to take care of themselves, throwing their numbers into war for purely selfish reasons instead of working together to rebuild their race: even if that might mean sacrificing traditions in order to unify.



Bare in mind that Wrex is in fact a byproduct of the genophage. He is a powerful battlemaster and a brilliant leader (in ME2). If it weren't for him, Tuchanka would be in a downward spiral. If it weren't for the genophage, the krogan would still be at arms with the council in their race for galactic expansion, probably knit together a death star to kill entire worlds (their culture certainly didn't stop their own nuclear holocaust), and Wrex would not be who he is.



Hell, even Grunt was disappointed with how his people took care of Tuchanka.

And yet again, Grunt is another example of what would not be if it weren't for the genophage.

[HolyJellyfish]

Also, its not fair to compare these alien races to our own history. Their races are fictional and not simplified caricatures of what human beings are capable. They may gives us grounds to moral questions, but I doubt it goes further than that.

I say this, because this can turn into a dangerous debate on the forums if people read the game too deeply.

[_purifico_]

Aliens are racist, yeah. I think that most people here realise that. But the fact that there are aliens that are prejudiced against other species doesn't cancel the fact that Ashley 'Space ****' Williams is a racist and should be killed with fire. Oh, wait - I DID kill her with fire.



Also, Mordin is a racist - ok. But he's a lovable racist who sings Gilbert and Sullivan and gives badass sex pep-talk

[Schneidend]

_purifico_ wrote...

Aliens are racist, yeah. I think that most people here realise that. But the fact that there are aliens that are prejudiced against other species doesn't cancel the fact that Ashley 'Space ****' Williams is a racist and should be killed with fire. Oh, wait - I DID kill her with fire.

Also, Mordin is a racist - ok. But he's a lovable racist who sings Gilbert and Sullivan and gives badass sex pep-talk

So, you purposefully allowed a loyal Alliance soldier and your subordinate (for whose safety you are personally responsible for) to DIE because you disagree with her on how humanity should approach their dealings with the Council? Oo-kay...

All Ashley has ever suggested is that humanity needs to be prepared to "go it alone" in the event that her bear scenario ever comes into play. That's not racist, or even xenophobic, that's perfectly rational and reasonable.

Modifié par Schneidend, 16 novembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Flamewielder]

I would temper Elite's analogy to childhood and adolescence with the following observation: Krogans are barely entering adolescence:

As Wrex himself states, Krogans prefer fighting over finding a cure for the genophage. The reason they do not become scientists is by inclination, not lack of intelligence. And when they DO science, it's to develop weapons (unless Wrex/Wreav coerce them into something more productive).

Mordin's disparaging comment regarding krogan scientists (and not krogans in general) is a rather accurate one, and I'm sure no one would be more pleased than Mordin himself to be proven wrong. Yes, the genophage is cruel to modern krogan, but they are still far from sociologically ready to be cured. Several krogans can be heard expressing their desire to unleash the horde on Council space once again.

The genophage is not a punishment, but a merciless tool of sociological coercion. It forces the Krogan to evolve into a more sociable species. This evolution is not yet achieved, even if Wrex is apparently making progress in the right direction. From comments made by krogans of other clans, his ideas are far from gaining widespread acceptance... However cruel it can be for krogan females who aspire to motherhood, the Krogans are not yet ready to be "cured". Apply a genophage cure too soon and population pressure will soon force krogans into competition with other races and war, killing billions (or the Turians will simply use more radical means like the Krogans used in the Rebellions (planet-smashing asteroids and such...)

Which raised an interesting question: how does human fertility compares to other Council races? We are given to understand that krogans multiply rapidly, with O'Keer's comment of "let a 1000 die in a clutch" suggesting females krogan could give birth to up to 1000 young in a single pregnancy... If the genophage was not curbing such an incredible birthrate, the krogans would be slaughtering each other over Tuchanka's meager resources anyway. In this respect, the genophage appears as a more "humane" approach... which doesn't make it easier to accept.

So knowing that Council species can and will resort to such means to control others, can humans be blamed to be mistrustful of aliens? I rather think not... And while some individuals (humans AND aliens) obviously appear prejudiced against one species or another, no species as a whole can claim the moral high ground in the ME universe.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 16 novembre 2010 - 05:46 .

[Xilizhra]

So, you purposefully allowed a loyal Alliance soldier and your subordinate (for whose safety you are personally responsible for) to DIE because you disagree with her on how humanity should approach their dealings with the Council? Oo-kay.

Well, an officer has to die regardless. This person presumably picked the nicer (as well as higher-ranked and biotic) one.

[HalfTangible]

Elite Midget wrote...

Yes they were warmongering... Humanity was built upon their conquests and warlike ways. Than later on it was again built on those warlike tendenciesn by conquering the Americas and displacing the people there as well. What can I say? We humans are just as warlike as the Krogan only we've learned to control these tendencies and aggressions.

It reminds me of humans as we grow. When we're children we're used to being given what we want and have a tendency to kick and scream if we're denied. Approaching teen years we go through puberty and the bigger of us assert dominance upon others through physical or social means. When we don't get what we want he find means to get it though if violence can get it than it's the first course of action unless values are taught to us. Than we reach adulthood and the pent of aggression of the teen years has passed and many adults develop into a more passive and healthy lifestyle.

Krogan were children when they were discovered and given WMDs. Than they rebelled during their teenage years since the Council said no to them for the first time thus they reacted in the only way they understood since the Council refused to educate the Krogan. Mommy, Salarians, than reveals a virus to 'control' the Krogan and Daddy, Turians, uses it to quickly end the dispute.

Many, many, many years later the Krogan are finally reaching the end of their teen years and Krogan scientist, such as Okeer, start popping up and disproving the racist notion that Krogan Scientist don't exist or that they can't change. Than Wrex, and the Female Clans, start demanding that a path outside of violence must be taken and slowly many Krogan, having survived puberty, grow to understand that killing for selfish reasons isn't the best path after all for the Krogan Race.

Krogan scientists are pure weapons engineers on the two occasions we see them. Okeer wanted to make the genophage pointless via bioweapon. in his case, by creating the perfect krogan. (Note that this would still leave the 999/1000 death rate in births) The other one quite openly is developing more powerful weapons to use against the other clans. If you pay attention to the Krogan's history, you can infer that their high birth rates were a major reason why they are so warlike: because they do not NEED to preserve their own lives.

Wrex and the female clans are the only two groups that think they should take another path, and moreover, they only reached that conclusion because of the genophage.

Your arguments remind me of a very particular scene that makes me laugh every time it's referenced.

"Sir, it's a fifteen inch serrated blade."
"You humans are all racist!"

Something being committed against someone that has to do with their race/culture is not automatically racist. Odd as it sounds. <_< In the turian's case, the fact that the blade was a ceremonial artifact automatically made the human racist. The Krogan (that we've seen) who want to cure the genophage want to do so that they can conquer the galaxy.

Humanity survives because we are scientists - we bend the natural world to give us conditions as favorable to our weak forms as possible. Not because we are warriors.

The Krogan survive because they are ridiculously strong and even more ridiculously adaptive. And more importantly, because they use that to their advantage.

Modifié par HalfTangible, 16 novembre 2010 - 06:30 .

[_purifico_]

Schneidend wrote...

_purifico_ wrote...

Aliens are racist, yeah. I think that most people here realise that. But the fact that there are aliens that are prejudiced against other species doesn't cancel the fact that Ashley 'Space ****' Williams is a racist and should be killed with fire. Oh, wait - I DID kill her with fire.

Also, Mordin is a racist - ok. But he's a lovable racist who sings Gilbert and Sullivan and gives badass sex pep-talk

So, you purposefully allowed a loyal Alliance soldier and your subordinate (for whose safety you are personally responsible for) to DIE because you disagree with her on how humanity should approach their dealings with the Council? Oo-kay...

All Ashley has ever suggested is that humanity needs to be prepared to "go it alone" in the event that her bear scenario ever comes into play. That's not racist, or even xenophobic, that's perfectly rational and reasonable.

No, Alice Shepard let gunnery chief WIlliams die because she had to make a choice. And she chose Kaiden over Ashley for several reasons: the main reason being the fact that Kaiden is far more useful than Ashley. The girl can only shoot. For god's sake even a child can shoot things. And there are only so many people who can rape you with their minds (fyi, during my insanity run Wrex and Kaidan were my companions of choice, because they were unstoppable on the field and as effective as Shepard. Whilst Ashley never managed to impress me with her combat prowess and finesse). And maybe she (Shepard) didn't like Williams for being prejudiced and short-sighted, but being a good oficer and paragon she didn't take her feelingf for Ashley into account when making a decision.

I, on the other hand, am no Shepard, and no paragaon for that matter. I am a person who plays a game and in that game I am as God. I can kill those I don't like and spare those I find interesting. Taking a leaf out of Sovereigns book I'd say that Ashley Williams existed because Bioware allowed it, and she ended because I demanded it.

Back to the topic: Do I like those alien racists the OP described? Nope. I despise them as much as Ashley.
Well except for Mordin (see above) and the turian councilor (because I'm sure he'll get what's coming to him in ME3 - oh, Bioware, please, please, please let me use the "Ah, yes, Reapers" dialogue option when he comes running to me asking for help).

[ShadyKat]

It's not a double standard. The alien races don't like that fact that humans are new on the galactic stage (only around 30 years) and believe they should run everything. While many of the other races have been on that same stage for thousand of years. IMO, many of the humans in ME1 talked like they were entitled to everything, without actually earning it. Also many aliens said that they didn't hate humans, but they did think humans were indeed bullies that thinks 'Might makes Right".



BTW

Terra Firma holding what was basically a KKK meeting on the Citadel was the ultimate sign of disrespect. How does someone hold a gather to say that aliens and humans should not work togerther, on an alien space station? Things like that makes humans look very bad in the eyes of the other races I bet.

[mander83]

Elite Midget wrote...

If a human says another race is lesser than they're racist.

If the Council says another race is lesser, and prevents them from getting a Council seat, than they're not racist.

Double standard alert!

I think the issue here is definition. Those races or nations are considered lesser because they don't have the resources needed to be on the council. I see the council (in some ways) as similar to the G8. When France established the forum in 1975 there were only six countries involved. Over time two more, Canada and Russia, were added. Now we have the G20- even more countries participate in that. Still not all though- there are 195 countries worldwide. Those who don't contribute to the G8/G20 do not do so for many reasons. Developing countries simply don't have as many resources or as much to contribute internationally. 

You can see the council races as those who participate in things like the G8 forum. The lesser races are the countries that simply cannot because they don't have the resources. It doesn't make them inferior or less important- they simply are at a different point in their development and cannot contribute as much as the council races.

[_purifico_]

mander83 wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

If a human says another race is lesser than they're racist.

If the Council says another race is lesser, and prevents them from getting a Council seat, than they're not racist.

Double standard alert!

I think the issue here is definition. Those races or nations are considered lesser because they don't have the resources needed to be on the council. I see the council (in some ways) as similar to the G8. When France established the forum in 1975 there were only six countries involved. Over time two more, Canada and Russia, were added. Now we have the G20- even more countries participate in that. Still not all though- there are 195 countries worldwide. Those who don't contribute to the G8/G20 do not do so for many reasons. Developing countries simply don't have as many resources or as much to contribute internationally. 

You can see the council races as those who participate in things like the G8 forum. The lesser races are the countries that simply cannot because they don't have the resources. It doesn't make them inferior or less important- they simply are at a different point in their development and cannot contribute as much as the council races.

Thank you

[Destroy Raiden_]

It's called double standard people think just because their aliens that they can't be racist though in truth they can be.

[Elite Midget]

I'm here to remind you that some of you are missing the point of this Topic.

Some users here wrongly claim, in their blissful ignorance, that Ashley is a racist and must die. Yet when I give examples of Aliens being racist to other races, especially against the Quarians, Krogan, and Volus, some users here laugh at it and don't demand for blood.

That is why this thread is called "The Alien Double Standard".

It's because some users here have no problem labeling humans as racist, such as wrongly stateing through ignorance that Ashley is a racist, yet for some reason they refuse to believe Aliens can be just as racist, if not more so than some extremist humans, as well as outright ignoring the racism of Aliens when encountered.

As for the Lesser comment made in ME1. If I were a Volus and a VI told me that my race was Lesser I would be furious and demanding action against the racist comment programmed, by Citadel Protocols, into the VI.

[Xilizhra]

Have you been listening to anything anyone else has been saying here? Honestly?

[Zulu_DFA]

Wow, was it a double post?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 16 novembre 2010 - 11:40 .