269 réponses à ce sujet

[mander83]

Elite Midget wrote...
 If Modern Day man has ways to curb aggression in Humans than why can't the 'genius' Salarians do the same for the Krogan? They've shown that they can basically serilize a whole species. Aggression management shouldn't be farfetched for them.

How has modern man curbed aggression in humans? Do we live in the same world?

There are people blowing other people up simply because they disagree. Think about how many wars have been fought in the last one hundred years. There is violence all around us. We aren't any better than we were at the beginning of time.

I'm a History major- I can 100% promise you that some humans have always been aggressive. That means from the earliest of times until now. Never were all humans that way. Early people were more primitive, yes, but that doesn't mean they were violent and war mongering. 

[Elite Midget]

It was the most advanced Alliance Stealth Ship and they were Aliens that she's never met before on the ship. What's stopping them from stealing important information to further their own race? Especially when Tali shows an immediate interest in the Drive Core and Garrus is busy messing with the Mako.



It took Shepard to get Tali to let go of her racism over the Geth. Even than she was relunctant and her actions make it doubtful that she wont try to again at a later date. The fact that she couldn't trust Shepard or go to him when she suspected trouble shows that she lacked any faith in Legion nor did she ever let go of her racism.



As I said before the FIRST Genophage was needed because of the failures of the Salarians. The Second was used because the Salarians got lazy and have brainwashed themselves to believe that Genophage is the only path. What about changing Pregnancy Rates, finding a way to curb their aggression, or actually taking responsibility by uplifting the Krogan culturally?



Why let them linger? Maybe they are still bitter over the Rebellions and want the Krogan to continue being punished? Or maybe they just can't let go of their failure and believe that Genophage was the only way to fix and maybe forget about said failurr?

[Elite Midget]

I'm talking about medically though Medician/Counciling/Schooling. Hell, many Americans have complained in the past that the 'Government' has turned many of their kids into pacifist wimps. Sure, we don't have a solution to curb aggression all over the world because we don't have the means to carry out such a wide scale task. The Salarians have shown that they easily could do that without much effort. What with how successful their Baby Killing Virus turned out.



I see Aggression Reduction and Pregnancy Rates Adjustments as far more humane than keeping in place the Baby Kiling Virus.

[Zulu_DFA]

Just a note:

MORDIN IS LYING:

Genophage IS a sterility plague. It's explicitly said on several occasions that male Krogans compete over "fertile females". This implies that there are fertile females, that can give birth to healthy cubs, and sterile females that get pregnant but can't hatch. The figure "1/1000" therefore reflects the relation between the fertile and sterile females.

But the Krogans seem to be actually developing cultural adaptations: the separtaion of the females and strict rituals surrounding the males' access to them. Probably it has the purpose of not letting the male Krogans know if they mate with fertile females or sterile ones, so that the competition would ease down. In the long run it will naturally result in less aggressive Krogans (as long as the genophage keeps the population pressure down, of course).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 novembre 2010 - 01:48 .

[Elite Midget]

You know, I think I like you Zulu.



In a totally Bro-Only way.

[mander83]

[quote]Elite Midget wrote...

It was the most advanced Alliance Stealth Ship and they were Aliens that she's never met before on the ship. What's stopping them from stealing important information to further their own race? Especially when Tali shows an immediate interest in the Drive Core and Garrus is busy messing with the Mako.
[/quote]

Tali and Garrus both helped Shepard while at the Citadel. I understand where Ash is coming from but I don't agree with her. I don't think it makes her racist either. My only point ever was that I can see why people might think she is. There is a reason people say this stuff about Ashley and not, say, Kaidan. You don't have to agree with it to understand why someone else might understand it differently.  

[quote]
It took Shepard to get Tali to let go of her racism over the Geth. Even than she was relunctant and her actions make it doubtful that she wont try to again at a later date. The fact that she couldn't trust Shepard or go to him when she suspected trouble shows that she lacked any faith in Legion nor did she ever let go of her racism.
[/quote]

Tali was raised to view the Geth as an unfeeling machine- a threat to her people's existence. Do you really expect her to put that all aside after knowing Legion for such a short time? Yeah, it took Shepard's help for her to see that Legion might not be so bad...but sometimes that is what people need. She also had never met a Geth like Legion before. There may have never even been an issue if Legion hadn't taken that information (I understand why he did but that probably didn't matter to Tali). That takes some time to get used to. Here is where we agree to disagree because I thought Tali handled it really well (& Legion too). 
[/quote]

[quote]
As I said before the FIRST Genophage was needed because of the failures of the Salarians. The Second was used because the Salarians got lazy and have brainwashed themselves to believe that Genophage is the only path. What about changing Pregnancy Rates, finding a way to curb their aggression, or actually taking responsibility by uplifting the Krogan culturally?

Why let them linger? Maybe they are still bitter over the Rebellions and want the Krogan to continue being punished? Or maybe they just can't let go of their failure and believe that Genophage was the only way to fix and maybe forget about said failurr?[/quote]

This is another issue that simply isn't black and white. There is no right answer. It would be wonderful to say "reverse the genophage!" and have all be well but that simply isn't likely. Reversing the genophage would probably mean war. The point is, I don't think Mordin is racist. He did what he had to do to keep the rest of the universe safe. Could it have been done differently? Maybe. We don't really know what or how it was made. Mordin, personally, did what he had to do. Do you really think he hates the Krogan? Honestly? Again...if the Salarians really did hate all Krogan, why not exterminate them altogether? Why let them have even 1 in 1000? You never did answer that.

[Nightwriter]

Still don't know where you got the idea that anyone holds any illusions about aliens being capable of racism, Midget. Everything capable of calculus is capable of racism and I really haven't seen a lot of people making any claims to the contrary.

"Only humans are racist!" is a pretty stupid statement to make. Who's been making it and why have I missed it?

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Just a note:

MORDIN IS LYING:

Genophage IS a sterility plague. It's explicitly said on several occasions that male Krogans compete over "fertile females". This implies that there are fertile females, that can give birth to healthy cubs, and sterile females that get pregnant but can't hatch. The figure "1/1000" therefore reflects the relation between the fertile and sterile females.

But the Krogans seem to be actually developing cultural adaptations: the separtaion of the females and strict rituals surrounding the males' access to them. Probably it has the purpose of not letting the male Krogans know if they mate with fertile females or sterile ones, so that the competition would ease down. In the long run it will naturally result in less aggressive Krogans (as long as the genophage keeps the population pressure down, of course).

Nah. When they said "fertile females", I took it to mean, "females who have a track record of being able to produce children".

So when a krogan female gives birth to one of those 1 in 1000's, all the males go, "Here's where the money's at!" Then they call her a fertile female. But all they're really saying is that she's proven before that she can overcome the odds. If you're going to roll the dice, don't you want to pick a female who's gotten lucky before?

Poor girls, they're probably tired every hour of every day. "I swear if I have sex one more time I'll explode... I'm EXHAUSTED... now I know what Smurfette felt like..."

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

So when a krogan female gives birth to one of those 1 in 1000's, all the males go, "Here's where the money's at!" Then they call her a fertile female. But all they're really saying is that she's proven before that she can overcome the odds. If you're going to roll the dice, don't you want to pick a female who's gotten lucky before?

Mordin himself dubs a dead female Krogan in the Weyrolck base "infertile" after a quick scan. It's a distinct genetic condition.

[Elite Midget]

Very well, we'll agree to disagree.



A-Hem, anyways...



I get the idea when some Users throw the racist card at Ashley than say that they romanced Tali and loved Mordin while supporting the Genophage as the only path. It shows a double standard and I hate double standards.



Yes it does mean fertility. When a Krogan Female gives birth to live young it means she's fertile and 'will' porduce more live young. If that wasen't the case than they wouldn't be able to maintain any power since they're expected to continue birthing more live young which they do. Those that can't give birth to live young are unfertile and all their babies ALWAYS end up dead upon arrival.



The Genophage is cruel to Mother's since it determines tht only a small few can give birth to live young while the rest will never give birth to live young. So instead of affecting Pregnancy Rates many mothers must deal with only seeing dead babies.



This is why Fertile Female Krogans have gained so much power and while Unfertile ones are cast aside and volunteer for experiments since they can't give birth to live young.

[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
So when a krogan female gives birth to one of those 1 in 1000's, all the males go, "Here's where the money's at!" Then they call her a fertile female. But all they're really saying is that she's proven before that she can overcome the odds. If you're going to roll the dice, don't you want to pick a female who's gotten lucky before?

Mordin himself dubs a dead female Krogan in the Weyrolck base "infertile" after a quick scan. It's a distinct genetic condition.

And I think an individual krogan female could be called infertile.

However, that does not mean that they all are, or that the salarians sterilized the whole race, or that if a krogan female is dubbed "fertile" it means every child she produces is viable and it is impossible for her to produce a stillborn baby.

It's about labels. You can't label the whole thing a sterility plague in one big blanket statement because its purpose was not to sterilize the race, but to stabilize it. "Stability plague" sounds weird though. 

[Nightwriter]

Elite Midget wrote...

I get the idea when some Users throw the racist card at Ashley than say that they romanced Tali and loved Mordin while supporting the Genophage as the only path. It shows a double standard and I hate double standards.

Again, I'd be more receptive to your point if you didn't use such bad examples. Neither Mordin or Tali is a racist.

[Zulu_DFA]

Elite Midget wrote...

This is why Fertile Female Krogans have gained so much power and while Unfertile ones are cast aside and volunteer for experiments since they can't give birth to live young.

I think, that the fertile females' gaining a lot of power was back in the early years of the genophage. These days, at least on Tuchanka, the infertiles live together with the fertiles and they bring up the baby Krogans together and maintain secrecy about which ones of them are actually fertile. So when a bunch of males gets to visit them for some mating, they don't know what it's going to be. Thus, no fighting arises over the fertile females. Males just have to earn the "shot at females" in general, then it's up to luck or the females themselves.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...
It's about labels. You can't label the whole thing a sterility plague in one big blanket statement because its purpose was not to sterilize the race, but to stabilize it. "Stability plague" sounds weird though.

That's it. Mordin plays this to make his lie believable. Statistically -- he is right. Medically... the genophage rendered 99.9% of Krogan females infertile.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 novembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[AntiChri5]

Honestly, Midget, no-one disagrees with you that there are racist aliens.

And the majority agree with you that Ash isn't a racist. I have argued that she isn't quite a bit in other threads. Nightwriter, do you remember my theory on why people label Ash a racist?

The problem is the examples you use.

The quaria /geth issue is far too complicated to just brush away and say "zomg Tali racist!"

And Mordin saved the krogan race.

[Elite Midget]

I don't see a problem with those examples though. There's no way you can deny that Tali is racist against the Geth, since she was brought up by such racism, and it takes Shepard interfering the change that view ever so slightly. The way Mordin treats the Krogan and is so sure that the Genophage is the only path also screams of Generalization and Racism.



Personally, I would rather go extinct than see my race reduced to a 999/1000 Baby Death Rate. It would make life far too depressing to live and push me to want to punish those that are murdering innocent babies that I must constantly bury without being explained why.



Saved the Krogan? Hah, tell that to a Krogan that has to bury their dead children.



Sure saved them alright, didn't you Mordin?

[Count Viceroy]

Elite Midget wrote...

Saved the Krogan? Hah, tell that to a Krogan that has to bury their dead children.

Sure saved them alright, didn't you Mordin?

Yes, because the only other alternative would have been to kill them off completely.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 17 novembre 2010 - 03:41 .

[AntiChri5]

The simulations the STG ran ended with the Turians and/or alliance exterminating the krogan because of the threat they pose by recovering to the genophage.

The 'phage allows the krogan to adapt to this environment the salarians thrust them into while not posing a threat to anybody.

[Elite Midget]

The Stimulations must have been very bias and racist if they didn't consider changing the Death Rate innto Pregnancy Rate or to find a way to reduce Krogan Aggression without killing innocent babies. To a Krogan they would rather be dead than live with countless dead babies. Which is why many leave their homeworld and become Mercenaries/Bodyguards. Why stay with your race when the future is bleek and pretty much doomed?



Just saying.



After the First Genophage settled they had 'many' more choices, which they could entertain or pursue, than just 'Kill Them all' or 'Almost Kill All of Them Very Slowly'.



A true scientist would never force themselves to only two choices since it kills creativity and thinking outside the box. Only a lazy individual who desires just their paycheck and keeping the status que would limit themselves in such a way.

[MrFob]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The simulations the STG ran ended with the Turians and/or alliance exterminating the krogan because of the threat they pose by recovering to the genophage.
The 'phage allows the krogan to adapt to this environment the salarians thrust them into while not posing a threat to anybody.

Well, given the fact that what? 6.5 billion or so humans are already too much for the planet to handle, that we have nowhere else to go and that we still have a population growth, maybe we'd need some Salarians to throw a "human genophage" at us? Too radical? Well, imagine how the Krogan feel then.

[Nightwriter]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I have argued that she isn't quite a bit in other threads. Nightwriter, do you remember my theory on why people label Ash a racist?

You mean in the racism bug thread? Didn't you say people use the label to make the Virmire decision easier?

[mander83]

Elite Midget:

Commander Shepard does not like Reapers. She (or he) wouldn't ever trust them and would attack them without a thought.

Is she a racist?

No, she isn't. If Shep were suddenly introduced to Fluffy the Reaper who claimed to be good and on her side...do you think she'd have a hard time believing it? Especially when Fluffy sends her attack plans to fellow friendly reapers? Of course she isn't going to blindly accept that Fluffy is a good "person" deserving of trust. It is the same (less extreme) thing with Tali. All she has ever known are Geth who want to kill her and her people. Geth who are working with Saren and Sovreign. Geth who took her people's homeworld. She has good reason not to like the Geth (and to be skeptical of Legion). It isn't simply because they are Geth (which would be the definition of racism- disliking/hating/looking down on someone solely because of their race). If the Geth had never done anything to the Quarians or worked with Saren, would Tali hate them? No. She isn't racist. She simply is looking at past events as an indicator for future events.

[AntiChri5]

Well, given the fact that what? 6.5 billion or so humans are already too much for the planet to handle, that we have nowhere else to go and that we still have a population growth, maybe we'd need some Salarians to throw a "human genophage" at us? Too radical? Well, imagine how the Krogan feel then.

One of the main reasons the revised genophage is necessary is because the krogan have a bloody good reason to want to rip the entire galaxy a new one.

We haven't tried to take over the galaxy and refused to negotiate, have we?

[AntiChri5]

The Stimulations must have been very bias and racist if they didn't consider changing the Death Rate innto Pregnancy Rate or to find a way to reduce Krogan Aggression without killing innocent babies. To a Krogan they would rather be dead than live with countless dead babies. Which is why many leave their homeworld and become Mercenaries/Bodyguards. Why stay with your race when the future is bleek and pretty much doomed?







Just saying.







After the First Genophage settled they had 'many' more choices, which they could entertain or pursue, than just 'Kill Them all' or 'Almost Kill All of Them Very Slowly'.







A true scientist would never force themselves to only two choices since it kills creativity and thinking outside the box. Only a lazy individual who desires just their paycheck and keeping the status que would limit themselves in such a way.

Your entire point is based on the assumption that salarians are incompetant scientists. This is contradicted by.......pretty much everything we know about them.

You have to support your statements with evidence from the game.