269 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Well,
given the fact that what? 6.5 billion or so humans are already too much
for the planet to handle, that we have nowhere else to go and that we
still have a population growth, maybe we'd need some Salarians to throw a
"human genophage" at us? Too radical? Well, imagine how the Krogan feel
then.

One of the main reasons the revised genophage is necessary is because the krogan have a bloody good reason to want to rip the entire galaxy a new one.
We haven't tried to take over the galaxy and refused to negotiate, have we?

This is probably not the right thread for this discussion. Sufficed to say, that my comment was supposed to argue against the fact that the phage doesn't pose a threat to anyone. Even if it doesn't pose a threat to the Krogan race (and I still doubt that) it certainly is a threat to individual Krogan and in consequence to their society. Mealon talked about cultural genocide and I have to agree with him on that point. Whether or not the Krogan deserved their fate or not is a different matter.
But if this discussion is to continue, we really should move it to another threat.

Modifié par MrFob, 17 novembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Zulu_DFA]

MrFob wrote...

Well, given the fact that what? 6.5 billion or so humans are already too much for the planet to handle, that we have nowhere else to go and that we still have a population growth, maybe we'd need some Salarians to throw a "human genophage" at us? Too radical? Well, imagine how the Krogan feel then.

If we were dumb enough to have no other option but a global nuclear war, then yes some "genophage"-dispensing aliens would be most welcome. But we aren't dumb. We invented contraception, abortion, other birth control procedures.

Krogans are obviously too dumb yet to understand, adopt and enforce the concept of birth control. They were dumb before their nuclear war, they were dumb between the nuclear war and the first contact with the Salarians, they were dumb during the Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions and they remain dumb now. But finally they are adapting, working out a culture with less aggression, just like Mordin says. When they are ready to introduce the birth control to their culture, then genophage will no longer be necessary.

Cure the genophage now, the Krogan population will skyrocket again and it will result in new rebellions. Simulations were clear.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 novembre 2010 - 05:06 .

[Elite Midget]

Commander Shepard is racist against the Reapers since he/she believes all Reapers are plotting to destroy them. Yet the Shepard has only met 2 Living Reapers, a dead Reaper, and the Collecters. Despite what the Reapers say they're quite different than each other. Ex. Soverign isn't the same as Harbringer. Soverign prefered a more hands off approach, avoided speaking with organics outside Saren, and would rather have Saren and the Geth do the work for him untill he was pushed into a corner. Harbringer took a hands on approach, enjoyed taunting Shepard at every turn, and dictated everything that the Collectors did in ME2. Whether this racism is legit or not doesn't change the fact that after only a few encounters Shepard 'hates' all Reapers and believes that they're all abominations. Not seeing any Reapers that think differently doesn't help to stave off the view held against the Reapers though makes the racism understandable.



At least Legion appeared to offer a diffrent take for the Geth other than the racist sentiments held against them. Where Shepard was lead to believe that they were all souless machines that will kill them all. At least from what the Citadel Races told the Humans and his/her encounters against Geth serving an Organic which was something the Citadel Races were sure would never occure.



Umm... The Geth don't want to kill the Quarians and in fact still refer to them as the 'Creators'. They defended themselves and remained outside the hair of Citadel Space. If they wanted to wipe out the Quarians they could easily have done so already. Also, it is racist when she generalized all Geth in that manner. She has her reason but racism 'is' racism. There's no changing that. Hence her overration upon meeting Legion to when Legion did what he thought logical to safeguard the Geth.



Though since no other means were taken outside the Genophage and the fact that the Salarians have basically abandoned the Krogan than I would consider some of them 'very' incompetent. Especially Mordin since for some reason, despite being a 'genius', he never factored in how the Genophage effected the people and their culture. Even his former Genophager saw that what they did to the Krogan, with the Second Genophage, was wrong and very much racist.

[AntiChri5]

I wasn't saying the 'phage wasn't a threat to the krogan, but that it prevented the krogan from being a threat to anyone.

The krogan need to be left alone to find a way to fit into galactic society. But the krogan, as they were present too great a threat to be ignored by the Alliance or Council.

The 'phage prevents the krogan from being an immediate threat to be dealt with, and gives them the time to sort their out their ****.

[Elite Midget]

The Alliance wasen't a part of Galactic Society for the First Genophage... Thus their security wasen't threatened in the eyes of the Council since they were still undiscovered.

[Count Viceroy]

Elite Midget wrote...

The Alliance wasen't a part of Galactic Society for the First Genophage... Thus their security wasen't threatened in the eyes of the Council since they were still undiscovered.

Fine, disregard the alliance bit of his comment, the argument is still just as valid, grasping at straws here....

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 17 novembre 2010 - 05:19 .

[AntiChri5]

The Alliance wasen't a part of Galactic Society for the First Genophage... Thus their security wasen't threatened in the eyes of the Council since they were still undiscovered.

The Alliance bit wasnt reffering to the first phage, just the revised phage. First phage it was turians, second turians and alliance.

[AntiChri5]

Umm... The Geth don't want to kill the Quarians

The Geth killed 95% of the quarian population.

Though since no other means were taken outside the Genophage

How do you know they never tried or considered other methods?

the fact that the Salarians have basically abandoned the Krogan

Except that isn't true. The STG regularly covertly check up on the krogan, to analyse the results of the genophage. That is how they knew the krogan were adapting

Especially Mordin since for some reason, despite being a 'genius', he never factored in how the Genophage effected the people and their culture.

Except that he did.

Even his former Genophager saw that what they did to the Krogan, with the Second Genophage, was wrong and very much racist.

You are trusting the moral compass of a man who has people kidnapped and performs brutal experiments on them until they die?

A man who says Wrex is too soft?

A man who wants to give the genophage cure to a group that want to keep salarians alive to breed them so they can eat their eggs?

[Zulu_DFA]

AntiChri5 wrote...
The Geth killed 95% of the quarian population.

This is actually unknown. Maybe they killed no more than 1-2% before the Wealthy and the Lucky Quarians fled their planets, abandoning the rest to their fate. After that the remaining Quarians killed each other and died of starvation.

[Elite Midget]

Or so the Quarians tell me... I'm sure that when the Geth became sepient and hte Council abandoned the Quarians their people, except the Rich and ones Off-World, broke into Anarchy which only further doomed them in effectively defeating the Geth which weren't even fully armed yet. I'm sure the Geth would have a far different account on the War.



Analzing Data isn't the same as being there for the Krogan. The Salarians found them, it was their responsibility to help them adept to Galactic Society. Of course we all know that the Salarians saw the Krogan as perfect footsoldiers so just gave them a gun to save their rears.



How Mordin acted in his Loyalty Missions seems to contradect that he expected the reprecuessions for the Second Genophage.



The man may have the wrong interest at heart but he's right about how the Genophage has negatively effected the Krogan which is something Mordin was ignorant about untill his Loyalty Mission.

[MrFob]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I wasn't saying the 'phage wasn't a threat to the krogan, but that it prevented the krogan from being a threat to anyone.
The krogan need to be left alone to find a way to fit into galactic society. But the krogan, as they were present too great a threat to be ignored by the Alliance or Council.
The 'phage prevents the krogan from being an immediate threat to be dealt with, and gives them the time to sort their out their ****.

In that case, i misunderstood you.

Back to the original discussion though.
I am also a bit puzzled why the Salarians saw their only hope in reengeneering the genophage. Even of Krogan numbers grew again, this time around, there would have been a lot of room for more options. I understand that, after the Rachni war, the Krogans were a force to be reckoned with, lot's of ships, lots of guns, etc. The original genophage was an act of desperation.
The new one however seems to be carefully calculated act of enforcing alien standards on the Krogan instead of letting them find their own way. Mordin puts it like, if they hadn't done anything, the rebellions would have happened all over again but look at the situation on Tuchanka. It's a mess. There is no force to be reckoned with this time. Tuchanka is in the idle of council space, If the council feels threatened, they should severely limit the Krogans military machine through sanctions and constraints (like it was done with other races in e.g. the dreadnought regulation). Maybe forbid them any kind of interstellar military vehicles. That would force them to sort out their violent nature on their own planet rather then scatter them throughout the galaxy as mercs because they have no hope at home. It simply doesn't make sense to take these drastic measures as a precautionary action.
And don't even get me started on the unpredictability of biological weapons.
Seriously, while the original GP may be excused as a last desperate way of survival for the other races, the new one is not warranted at the current situation. Not due to some simulations, performed by a small group that apparently decided to know everything well enough to play god.

[AntiChri5]

Codex says the Geth killed off the "vast majority" of the quarian population, leaving only 17 million alive.

[Zulu_DFA]

The Codex in an in-game document. It is inaccurate. For example, it maintains that the Citadel and mass relays were built by the Protheans.

[ADLegend21]

I agree with most of the OP. the same goes for the Alien LI's vs the Human LI's Kaidan is whiney for talking abotu jump Zero then saying "I've dealt with my past" yet garrus goes on and on about his men and he's so awesome for doing it and everyone wants to hear about how Sidonis betrayed him again and again. There's ort of a double standard when it's humans vs Aliens.

[Jagri]

Think when it comes to aquiring information in the Mass Effect universe the Codex should be the first reference point for accurate information. There has been information related as per example to the Citadel where it is inaccurate given further in game information. There hasn't however been any conflicting information about the Geth War/Morning War provided in game or novels/comics as far as I know.

[Elite Midget]

The Codex was written by the Victors and those in power. Who knows how much of the Codex is just propoganda made in the Council's image? Cerberus also seems like to contradict a lot of the Codex stuff too...



I can't believe I forgot the Batarians. Many Aliens view them in a racist manner as do many Batarians do the same as well. It's like, a mutual hatred that is fueled by bias hatreds because those in power don't agree with each other.

[Jagri]

Your referencing "History is written by the victors". Applying what would be a real world view to a fictional universe. But there is no evidence to back such claims as the Geth War/Morning War being written from a favored view. Like it was posted before Legion confirms accounts of the Geth War/Morning War is "largely the same" as the quarians who would likely be the ones who made such a entry.

So supported by solid evidence and a witness representing the other race involed in the conflict confirming largely that the account made by the quarians is truthful this case is closed. To be reviewed when solid future evidence is presenting within a in game context. Least what I think a judge of some common sense would rule.

Modifié par Jagri, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:27 .

[CroGamer002]

Wait, wait, wait...

Are racist aliens news here?!

People, on the Citadel residents can openly put "Not hiring Quarinas" signs! Can you imagine if you put "Not hiring Blacks/Asians" sign in any democratic country on Earth?! You would be out of business, get founded up your ass instantly and you would be most hated there.



And don't get me started on Illium.

Yeah, aliens are bigger racists then humans, even for today standards.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nevermind.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:54 .

[Xilizhra]

Bigger? I really doubt it; open bigotry against nonhumans is clearly acceptable, considering Terra Firma.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra, what do you have against freedom of speech?

[Xilizhra]

What? I didn't say I would want to ban Terra Firma, just that they show that open bigotry against nonhumans is acceptable in current human society.

[Dean_the_Young]

Except Terra Firma demonstrates nothing of the sort. Terra Firma has bigoted people, but that's hardly all it has, and it's party views aren't either.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Freedom of speech. When any racist disgruntled by the necessity to comply with public regulations is allowed to make insulting generalizations about the racial group the public servant currently in front of them represents.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:08 .