50 réponses à ce sujet

[DahliaLynn]

This may be a bit far fetched, but based on the logic that all programs sold off-the-shelf begin their evolution with scripts, and end up providing easy functionality, button clicking and overal end-user friendly UI, I was wondering if the ultimate project  would be to convert the now somewhat raw script based toolset into something friendly for all to use and mod with, sans the need for scripting.

The reasoning behind this was that it seemed that after I had learned the cutscene editor and managed to replace single player scenes, I had no idea that I would need to know how to script to get basic functions such as unequipping armor for player in a cutscene, transporting the player to a new area, much less actually adding a new scene to the game. This is one of thousands of functions that I feel should (and can) be made user friendly.

From simple exporting to plot building, as a hopeful modder, I don't feel I should have to know how everything works behind the scenes ie 2da, m2da, animation searching, fx searching, connecting sounds, inserting music, etc  in order to be succesful in using the toolset to mod or create new campaigns. I would have loved to be given a dialogue asking what I want to do, a button encompassing various different functions within each child interface, etc.

I realize this would be a project of immense proportions with all of the powerful functions of the toolset. Perhaps this is wishful thinking, but I don't think it impossible if enough people join forces to work on such a project.

 

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 16 novembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Mengtzu]

I can sympathise, but it seems like scripting is by far the easiest part of the toolset to work with. Cutscenes, level creation etc are extremely daunting



The problem with this sort of effort right now is the uncertainty around the status of the Toolset with DA2. If we'll be able to produce content for further games in the DA series then usability projects might make sense. It's not so clear that DA:O *by itself* would be worth a long-term investment as a platform.



The other possible solution would be tools or projects to better organise and facilitate modding teams.

[TimelordDC]

I am with Mengtzu on this point - compared to level creation and cutscenes, scripting is easy to do.



However, I do see where you are coming from. In addition to what Mengtzu posted, even if we were to develop something like that, trying to put a 'clickable' wrapper around everything would be pretty much impossible - not unless we created our own version of the toolset (which is not an entirely bad idea in itself, btw)



What is possible is potentially a tool that will simplify some of the common scripting tasks for the average modder. There was talk of something like Lilac's tool for DA but as with many other projects, it is gathering dust.

Or, we could put together a repository of commonly used functions, scenarios, etc. using a variable table that the average modder can use to input resources, etc. Well, it would still need time to come out with a proper design and more important, to implement it.



The idea certainly has merit but if we need a bunch of people to dedicate their time to do this, we should at least wait till DA 2 so we can know where Dragon Age is headed.

[Noob766]

the help window is really useful for the everyday user.

[DahliaLynn]

provided the everyday user knows how to script, understand data structures, excel sheets, background mechanics of the toolset and all of it's more complicated attiributes, which is my point.
One can learn each editor separately, but to combine them in any sane fashion needs the work of scripting.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:06 .

[ChewyGumball]

DahliaLynn wrote...

This may be a bit far fetched, but based on the logic that all programs sold off-the-shelf begin their evolution with scripts, and end up providing easy functionality, button clicking and overal end-user friendly UI, . . .

I would just like to point out that that logic is very flawed. One main reason comes to mind. It is that scripts don't drive the UIs for any (non game) program I know. Creating UIs is not an easy or simple thing to do, and to provide the kind of customization you are looking for, we would need the source for the toolset (not going to happen), or create a completely new one. You can't just add things in. 

[DahliaLynn]

There have been several separate UIs created to provide assistance with the toolset, downloadable as mods as in Timelords example). There is the "Cutscene Companion" , the DATOOL model manipulator,  DA ToolChest:  These are just a few small examples where some people have attempted to make the toolset easier to use, access and manipulate.
Perhaps what I am asking is hard, but flawed logic?
All of it's functions end up using the same engine, whether custom or original resources. What you're saying is there is no way to unite these functions?

Had I known initially that in order to use the toolset and mod the game, I had to know how to script, I would have backed away quckly. Does this have to be the case? or is my question/request so entirely out of proportion or illogical?

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:43 .

[ladydesire]

I know Victor and Fernando were talking about some possible updates for the DA toolset, including the ability to write plugins for it, similar to what Obsidian had in the NWN2 toolset in one of the DA Podcasts; if they could impliment that, we could use that functionality to simplify some of the module development process.

[TimelordDC]

The ability for plugins already exists in this toolset - they just haven't exposed it. Also, they talked about updates nearly a couple of months back and we haven't had a single thing being done so I wouldn't put too much money on what we'll get from Bioware. Maybe after DA 2 but even then, it is difficult, I think.



They were an independent developer house before; now, they are not.

[TimelordDC]

DahliaLynn wrote...

There have been several separate UIs created to provide assistance with the toolset, downloadable as mods as in Timelords example). There is the "Cutscene Companion" , the DATOOL model manipulator,  DA ToolChest:  These are just a few small examples where some people have attempted to make the toolset easier to use, access and manipulate.
Perhaps what I am asking is hard, but flawed logic?
All of it's functions end up using the same engine, whether custom or original resources. What you're saying is there is no way to unite these functions?

Had I known initially that in order to use the toolset and mod the game, I had to know how to script, I would have backed away quckly. Does this have to be the case? or is my question/request so entirely out of proportion or illogical?

If you actually look at those tools, they all read from the database but none write back to it.
Also, off-the-shelf software are finished products meant for users. I would view the Toolset as an IDE which creates modules (finished products) for user consumption. The fact that it is complicated is primarily due to the complexity of the finished product. I mean, the same story can be done in the NWN Toolset but cannot be presented in the same manner, if you understand what I mean.

I wouldn't say it is flawed logic - it has arisen out of a need and that is never wrong. Whether that need justifies the time and effort required to create something is the question here and the other factors like longevity, scope of what is expected, etc. just add more questions.

[ChewyGumball]

The logic is flawed, but that doesn't diminish the need or want for something like this.

I am currently developing a custom lightmapper, and with very little documentation to go by, it is very tough work to figure out how the toolset wants things. Somethings are easier to do than others, but anything that has to interact with the toolset on more than a very simple level would require an effort that probably isn't worth it atm.



However, on a more positive note, if you actually come up with a list of things you want automated, it will become easier to see the scope of such a project.

[Proleric]

I find that DAO scripting is somewhat different from NWN - more configuration, less code.

So we might find that writing more cookbook tutorials on how to perform common tasks (with embedded code snippets) would be more useful than a code generator per se.

I never cease to be amazed by the diversity of mods out there, so defining "common task" might be an interesting challenge, too.

[DarthParametric]

Whether what DahliaLynn has suggested is illogical or not is perhaps a matter of semantics. It's certainly completely impractical, if not impossible, at least in some instances (as Chewy alluded to). Best just to accept that what we've got in front of us in terms of the toolset is about as good as it's going to get. Expect nothing from Bioware in terms of updates or new features and don't expect community tools to perform miracles (it's already a miracle that we have as many as we do). If you are unable or unwilling to do certain things like scripting then either you'll need to get a team to help you or just focus on mods that fall within the scope of what you can do.

[DahliaLynn]

Unable would be the key word here. I'm not a programmer. Keep in mind (aside from knowledge you may already have as a programmer) that the average player, who understands that a toolset is made available to him for modding purposes, would need to work extremely hard to gather such a team, much less from a forum that may even be found intimidating at first- (notice the kind informative post by noob766) Toolset itself is intimidating, which is basically one of the major problems (aside from lack of updates of course)

One can learn the level editor morph editor, Cutscene editor, Area, etc, These are all graphic interfaces, like most people are generally used to when using software.

The problem is, what happens when you have to integrate them all? Dead end, unless you find someone nice enough or interested enough to script it all together for you. Since many of the functions of game integration are common, or based on similar principles I don't see why it should be so hard to add a graphic interface to limit the need for original script writing. At least one that puts together more commonly used script functions. I realize there is a script database on wiki, but one would still need to sift around and learn a heck of a lot in order to manipulate them.

Perhaps more tools like the ones listed above would ease the pain. I am not a programmer, and the Toolset is an extremely powerful tool. Why must I know how to script in order to mod the game? It's an entire discipline.  Should there be a warning when downloading? ..."To all prospective modders, in order to utilize the toolset to it's maximum potential you will either need to know c# and/or need to gather a team to assist you."

If what I am suggesting is impractical (although would be optimal for a player who has enough interest to begin modding) then perhaps a comprehensive updated manual would be helpful, or at least improving and updating the Wiki.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 16 novembre 2010 - 06:09 .

[-Semper-]

DahliaLynn wrote...

One can learn the level editor morph editor, Cutscene editor, Area, etc, These are all graphic interfaces, like most people are generally used to when using software.

and what stops you from learning the scripting language? yes, it's hard and confusing the first time you are looking at a script but after browsing through the core resources you will get used to it. it ain't that hard if you take your time and ask yourself through the forums

[JasonNH]

Yes, it can a bit overwhelming when you first encounter all the bits and pieces that need to be put together just to produce some simple features. It is kind of like "The Joining" ritual for modders. It will either kill you or prepare you for the calling that lies ahead.   Hang in there, I expect you will pick up what you need to if you persevere with it. For the community to try and solve the complexity versus ease of use trade-off for such a game as this, and without access to the toolset source, is really not feasible IMO.

[DarthParametric]

DahliaLynn wrote...

Why must I know how to script in order to mod the game?

You don't. There are plenty of mods that either require no scripting, or for which pre-made scripts are available. However, if you want to make mods that require heavy scripting then, yes, obviously you'll have to learn how to script. Is that really such a surprise? It would be the same if you wanted to make custom weapon or armour models - you'd obviously need to know how to model. As a number of people are fond of saying, there's no "make art" button you can press to just make them appear. Scripting is no different.

I understand your frustration. I myself have zero knowledge of coding. I'd love to be able to - there's all sorts of crazy stuff I'd like to do both in game modding and other areas that requires coding, but I have neither the time nor the aptitude for it.

DahliaLynn wrote...

Should there be a warning when downloading? ..."To all prospective modders, in order to utilize the toolset to it's maximum potential you will either need to know c# and/or need to gather a team to assist you."

There's no explicit warning on the tin (as it were), but Bioware made it very clear numerous times (even before release) that DA modding was always going to be a team activity rather than a solo venture. DA wasn't made by one guy that knew how to do everything, it was made by a large group of people with specialist roles. It's hardly surprising then that a version of the same tools they used to build the game really requires a group of people to make efficient use of it. Sure, one person with the requisite skills can produce mods by themselves (as evidenced by the likes of Alley of Murders et al.), but they are either going to be fairly limited in size or take years to produce. It's not just something that's confined to DA. Look at any large-scale game mod and chances are there's a team of at least a few people working on it. It's just the nature of the beast.

In any event, be thankful that you even have a toolset. If you think you have it tough now, try modding a game with no official tools or where the developer has gone out of their way to prevent modding.

[FollowTheGourd]

-Semper- wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

One can learn the level editor morph editor, Cutscene editor, Area, etc, These are all graphic interfaces, like most people are generally used to when using software.

and what stops you from learning the scripting language? yes, it's hard and confusing the first time you are looking at a script but after browsing through the core resources you will get used to it. it ain't that hard if you take your time and ask yourself through the forums

In NWN2, I think some people were still looking for something like Lilac Soul's NWN1 script generator - depending on how much of it still worked for NWN2. My understanding was you plugged in what you wanted and it output the scripts for it. That's still a tremendous amount of work too, I'm sure.

In the end it's probably just not going to happen for Dragon Age unless somebody devotes a whole lot of effort into it, which they just might not have the time or inclination to, not to mention it'd probably be an ongoing project.

Also keep in mind that BioWare isn't trying to license out the Dragon Age engine as far as I know, so it's not going to have all the bells and whistles that another might. Unreal Engine 3 has kismet, which lets people do some scripting tasks graphically, but I'm sure that was still a lot of extra work to create. And maybe I'm biased, but the scripting in Dragon Age isn't all that hard to get used to at all, and you have event templates to help get you started.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 17 novembre 2010 - 02:36 .

[ChewyGumball]

Scripting (and programming in general) is a mix between symbolic math and grammar. Understanding the rules is the easy part, knowing how to apply them is the hard part. Most people think it is the other way around. If the syntax is what is scaring you, you just need to get used to it. Its not scary, and it actually makes sense once you've thought it through.

[DahliaLynn]

chewy: I can compare your analogy to understanding the rules of chess versus the strategies implemented. Completely different ballgame obviously.

After a bit of external correspondence I guess it's only fair to explain where I'm coming from with this request.

I have been a gamer, probably most of my life. I have never used mods for any game, and never thought once that I would be creating mods, I simply enjoyed playing. When I came across DA in March earlier this year, I was extremely impressed, as well as a bit disappointed by some of it's aspects. When I had learned that there was something called a Toolset, which allowed me to modify the game, as well as be available to anyone who purchased it, I got excited, especially, when I had seen other mods related to my interest I felt could be improved. I thought if other *players* can produce mods, why can't I?

My natural thought process lead me to believe that this toolset was made available to the public for this exact purpose. To give end users the ability to mod the game.

What I didn't know was that I had to go through hell to get through the endless barriers in research to achieve this. Learning the Cutscene editor was enough to handle, but game integration was even more frustrating.

Without going into further detail, I'll just mention, that I am only 6 months old in the modding community, and it appears that many of you have come from a background of years of modding (NWN etc.) and completely appreciate the existence of such an advanced toolset as opposed to the previous script-only methods of modding. Probably like Morse code to the cellular phone. Something I was completely unaware of as a new modder.

From my own perspective, if I go back to my original thoughts, to be able to mod this game on a larger level, i.e. to have the ability to create my own campaigns, is an absolute treat to anyone with a creative vision. I am used to programs being available to the general public having good documentation, and overall provide user friendliness to some degree. Unfortunately it seems I was wrong in my assumption that this would be the case with the toolset.

When I hear the word "scripting" I think of programming, i.e. the nuts and bolts behind the scenes.
My impression was that the scripting forum was the secret laboratory for the geniuses who knew how to manipulate the ins and outs of the actual game coding gathered together to compare strategies, a place where I dared not enter as a player/end user. (regardless of my own computer science background long left ages ago)

The word "scripting" just scared me into thinking that now I would have to take programming courses to use this thing. (I didn't need to learn programming to learn the CS editor, area editor, FMOD, etc. so what happened?)

I now understand that learning to script for this particular game would probably not be harder than learning the CS editor which is refreshing to hear.

This request simply stems from the modding new person, who sees that she has access to an incredibly powerful toolset, unaware that this is actually a professional developers tool, in semi raw form designed to be used by a team, and is constantly evolving.

I just saw great potential in expanding the DA engine manipulating community giving people endless options for creating whatever they dream up. This was what I thought at first until I dove deeper into the modding scheme realizing I had to use new scripts for functions that logically should have been a given since it remained within the same rules of the DA:O mechanics.

Because of some of the reasons mentioned in a few posts regarding the future of the toolset/engine in general, I would wonder if it's worth such an effort. If indeed this engine happens to be the wave of the future with regards to game development, and if Bioware decides to release updates and upgrade it, I can only see this as being a tremendous and amazingly creative end user program and had hopes that this would be the case.

I appreciate your posts and correspondence, enlightening me on this issue.

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 17 novembre 2010 - 07:05 .

[Yara C.]

ChewyGumball wrote...
Understanding the rules is the easy part, knowing how to apply them is the hard part.

I agree completely.
That means for me it is a question of time and for what you want to spend it.

JasonNH wrote...
 It is kind of like "The Joining" ritual for modders. It will either kill you or prepare you for the calling that lies ahead.

Maybe others are not afraid of being killed during the "Joining" Ritual. I am certain it would not kill me, but I am afraid that I would become a beserker (again) knowing I have a long cool-down-time.
And I want to spend the time on cutscenes not on scripts. Oops, I am not a modder! But interested in Machinima I had to realize that I have to think more about scripts than I have planned before.

To my part, I would appreciate at least some more templates, a comprehensive manual or an updated wiki and - if TOOLSET would resemble a more end-user friendly construction kit (unlikely) - nevertheless the largest possible flexibility for scripters. (Someone never knows

[DahliaLynn]

FollowTheGourd wrote...

Also keep in mind that BioWare isn't trying to license out the Dragon Age engine as far as I know, so it's not going to have all the bells and whistles that another might. Unreal Engine 3 has kismet, which lets people do some scripting tasks graphically, but I'm sure that was still a lot of extra work to create. And maybe I'm biased, but the scripting in Dragon Age isn't all that hard to get used to at all, and you have event templates to help get you started.

This is is an excellent example of I was talking about :happy:

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:45 .

[Sunjammer]

It might be more constructive if we simply accept that some people have no desire and/or aptitude for scripting; that it is unlikely there will ever be an intuitive graphical interface for Dragon Age scripting; and that few, if any, will be able to make their dream mod without some help from others be it ad hoc community assistance or a dedicated team.

Perhaps if we put the preceeding debate to one side we focus on identifying what the issues actually are and on trying to find some practical solutions. Suggestions might be:

• annotated script templates and snippets; word templates with replaceable fields
• talent swap thread: wanted protal scripting, offering 4 hours cutscene design
• ensuring non-scripting articles/tutorials link to appropriate script examples
• library of usefuls scripts (rather than the rubbish that is currently there)

Modifié par Sunjammer, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:10 .

[TimelordDC]

Sunjammer wrote...

Perhaps if we put the preceeding debate to one side we focus on identifying what the issues actually are and on trying to find some practical solutions. Suggestions might be:

• annotated script templates and snippets; word templates with replaceable fields
• talent swap thread: wanted protal scripting, offering 4 hours cutscene design
• ensuring non-scripting articles/tutorials link to appropriate script examples
• library of usefuls scripts (rather than the rubbish that is currently there)

That's a good starting point.

When I started scripting in DA, I initially created a syntax and a limited function template in EditPlus. We could extend that idea to have a snippet library that contains commonly used scripts to be used in a stand-alone text editor or as part of the DA script templates.
Perhaps even have compiled scripts reading from custom 2DAs for the common tasks so the unfamiliar aren't coming back with compiler errors.

Also, the Community Contest has exactly this as one of it's aims. We already have scripters and voice actors offering their services and with the variety of contests and more people signing up to offer their time as prizes, it can only lead to good things for all concerned

I also agree that the wiki needs cleaning up and not only in the scripting area. The whole thing could use an overhaul. I am willing to help in cleaning up the script sections but unless there is a concerted effort and some sort of moderation (the wiki concept is good but in a pseudo-technical environment such as this, the content needs to be validated), I don't see that effort going anywhere.

[Yara C.]

That is constructive. Thumb up for these posts, Sunjammer and TimeLordDC.