96 réponses à ce sujet

[Pushover1985]

Ok, this has been bugging me fo a while. The guy who tells you about the key to King Cailan's chest says that even if Loghain hadn't pulled out of the battle, Cailan *knew* that there would be no victory at Ostagar. Really? So that's why he was on the FRONT LINES and refused to wait for reinforcements. Then the guy explains away why Cailan gave absolutely no hint of knowing they were all doomed by saying Cailan put on all his bravado for the sake of his men. Really? I guess it's possible, but... really??

Modifié par Pushover1985, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:09 .

[ejoslin]

I played RtO once, and was unimpressed, so I don't remember that, but IF that is true, Cailan was a fool to throw his army and himself like that, and really, all of Ferelden's military at them like that. Not only that, but he called all the troops from the entire country to what? Die? The Archdemon hadn't been sighted yet, so...



Wow, ok, I have to talk to whatshisface again to see. It will make me even LESS impressed with RtO (and i didn't think that was possible).

[sylvanaerie]

well considering the amount of OOCness that takes place in the expansion I don't think of RtO as a real part of the DAverse. From the idiocy of "Cailan knew we were all going to die" which is beyond foolish grandstanding/heroics to just plain in the realm of 'stupid' to the OOC comments of Alistair (all broken up over Cailan and nothing said at all about Duncan, the ONE he really mourned after Ostagar) totally at odds with how he behaves the entirity of the game and Cougar Wynne flirting with my PC's LI.
I think the weirdest part for me and the biggest immersion breaker for this little expansion forever putting it in the realm of "fanfic" in my head was the -5 disapproval I got from Zevran for building a pyre for Cailan. I mean REALLY why would he care how we dispose of the king's corpse and WHY a disapproval? He spends most of the game going along with what I do as long as I don't pick on the oppressed and suddenly a -5 drop just for following funereal rites appropriate for Ferelden for a fallen king?

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 16 novembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[bleetman]

I was under the impression you only got that dialogue if Loghain was present, so I can only assume it was to make him seem more reasonable, and less like The Villan. As with pretty much all his other dialogue if recruited.

Still, we're talking about someone who invited Orlesian forces to help but scoffed at the idea of accepting reinforcements from Redcliffe, so who knows.

Modifié par bleetman, 16 novembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[Pushover1985]

I got the dialogue before even finishing any of the main grey warden treaties quest, so waaay before being able to recruit Loghain.

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is retarded.

[ejoslin]

sylvanaerie wrote...

well considering the amount of OOCness that takes place in the expansion I don't think of RtO as a real part of the DAverse. From the idiocy of "Cailan knew we were all going to die" which is beyond foolish grandstanding/heroics to just plain in the realm of 'stupid' to the OOC comments of Alistair (all broken up over Cailan and nothing said at all about Duncan, the ONE he really mourned after Ostagar) totally at odds with how he behaves the entirity of the game and Cougar Wynne flirting with my PC's LI.
I think the weirdest part for me and the biggest immersion breaker for this little expansion forever putting it in the realm of "fanfic" in my head was the -5 disapproval I got from Zevran for building a pyre for Cailan. I mean REALLY why would he care how we dispose of the king's corpse and WHY a disapproval? He spends most of the game going along with what I do as long as I don't pick on the oppressed and suddenly a -5 drop just for following funereal rites appropriate for Ferelden for a fallen king?

You have  pretty much wrapped up why I was unimpressed with RtO.  Though i'd like to throw in, I played it with a dwarf casteless.  The facial expressions she had when seeing Cailan up there, and the dialog choices -- I headdesked.  

edit: and yeh, it's weird that Zevran got that huge (for him) approval hit.  He's pragmatic, but not a jerk.  He DOES have a line there which makes it worse.  i don't remember it exactly, but it's something like, "You think if they go through the trouble of killing a king, they'd at least show his face."  which made no sense, as Cailan's face was showing.  plus it implies that Zevran felt the darkspawn earned their trophy.

Morrigan disapproves there as well, and i think whoever set that one up figured if one pragmatist disapproves, both should.

Modifié par ejoslin, 16 novembre 2010 - 04:31 .

[Addai]

It's a little confused, yes. However we don't know what the timing is on this conversation Elric had with Cailan. I interpret it as being right before the battle, when there was no time to do anything but stand, especially when Cailan had staked his hopes on a big win. Something like, the latest scout reports come in and they realize the horde is much larger than expected, so Cailan hurriedly gives Elric the key, but there is no time for him to retreat without majorly losing face. So in the end he trusts in a hail mary based on the Grey Warden legend, his belief in his own Theirin mystique, and Loghain's strategies that always pulled victory out in the end for his father.

[sylvanaerie]

yea. I hear that, Ejo. I only do RtO with a Cousland and then RP that she isn't grieving for Cailan. By building him a pyre and disposing properly of his body she is putting to rest that time in her life and by proxy putting to rest her family as well. Otherwise I can't stand RtO. It's way too far out of the realm of believability for me. After trying it with my Dalish I wanted to go remove the bongwater from Bioware's water coolers and ask them WTF they were thinking?

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 16 novembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[bleetman]

Given that you spend most of the time chasing a genlock necromancer, it's a shame you never run into a more... recognisable undead.

...What? Don't look at me like that.

[sylvanaerie]

That would have been heartbreaking, seeing Duncan's corpse attack the party but at least it might have allowed some more IC interaction from Alistair at the sight of the old WC. Instead we get boohoooing over a king he barely knew. Hell I expected something when we found Duncan's sword/dagger and considering one of the convos you get with Alistair early on is how he wished he had something of Duncan's to take with him...

Nothing. And no comment when the Joining Chalice is found. This expansion missed so many good character building opportunities. The only one who didn't disappoint me in Ostagar was Dog who has a really cool moment at the time you decide to give Cailan a pyre. (Howling in eulogy).

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

You have  pretty much wrapped up why I was unimpressed with RtO.  Though i'd like to throw in, I played it with a dwarf casteless.  The facial expressions she had when seeing Cailan up there, and the dialog choices -- I headdesked.  

edit: and yeh, it's weird that Zevran got that huge (for him) approval hit.  He's pragmatic, but not a jerk.  He DOES have a line there which makes it worse.  i don't remember it exactly, but it's something like, "You think if they go through the trouble of killing a king, they'd at least show his face."  which made no sense, as Cailan's face was showing.  plus it implies that Zevran felt the darkspawn earned their trophy.

Morrigan disapproves there as well, and i think whoever set that one up figured if one pragmatist disapproves, both should.

I don't really understand the complaints about the Warden facial expressions.  Even if you didn't know Cailan from the next human, wouldn't you be horrified by a body strung up as a trophy?  Unless your Warden is very hardened.  I do see how it's a projection that some might not feel appropriate.

Also the line about royal blood doesn't bother me, either, since even playing a Dalish, I would probably know that that is the human custom and just out of respect would want to follow it.

The approvals and disapprovals, that I agree is messed up.  I just did this with Loghain in the party and he seems only to approve if you throw Cailan to the wolves.  Even if he was angry with him, I just do not see him doing that.  Nor did Zevran's response make any sense.  I think they must have decided they had to have some companions approving of even the most heartless choices, and they picked a couple to do it without real regard to the characters.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

After my first run of RtO, I pretty much just hit it to get the nice gear. I otherwise don't count anything there as an in game occurrence. Last game I held it off long enough to take Loghain there and it made even less sense then with Alistair. :/

So, Return to Ostager: shiny loot, stupid people.

[bleetman]

sylvanaerie wrote...

That would have been heartbreaking, seeing Duncan's corpse attack the party but at least it might have allowed some more IC interaction from Alistair at the sight of the old WC.

I'd rather have that than 'oh hey, another ogre', I think. Of the various short-lived-but-important characters involved in Ostagar, Cailan strikes me as the most poorly established, and thus the least likely to envoke any kind of player response. Seeing Duncan strung up in the same way would've had a far bigger impact.

Alistair's "I believed him, you know? That this would be a glorious battle that we'd win" comment seems out of place too, given how slightly skeptical he comes across when you first meet him.

/digress

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You have  pretty much wrapped up why I was unimpressed with RtO.  Though i'd like to throw in, I played it with a dwarf casteless.  The facial expressions she had when seeing Cailan up there, and the dialog choices -- I headdesked.  

edit: and yeh, it's weird that Zevran got that huge (for him) approval hit.  He's pragmatic, but not a jerk.  He DOES have a line there which makes it worse.  i don't remember it exactly, but it's something like, "You think if they go through the trouble of killing a king, they'd at least show his face."  which made no sense, as Cailan's face was showing.  plus it implies that Zevran felt the darkspawn earned their trophy.

Morrigan disapproves there as well, and i think whoever set that one up figured if one pragmatist disapproves, both should.

I don't really understand the complaints about the Warden facial expressions.  Even if you didn't know Cailan from the next human, wouldn't you be horrified by a body strung up as a trophy?  Unless your Warden is very hardened.  I do see how it's a projection that some might not feel appropriate.

Also the line about royal blood doesn't bother me, either, since even playing a Dalish, I would probably know that that is the human custom and just out of respect would want to follow it.

The approvals and disapprovals, that I agree is messed up.  I just did this with Loghain in the party and he seems only to approve if you throw Cailan to the wolves.  Even if he was angry with him, I just do not see him doing that.  Nor did Zevran's response make any sense.  I think they must have decided they had to have some companions approving of even the most heartless choices, and they picked a couple to do it without real regard to the characters.

I just don't see a dwarf casteless saying, "He was of noble blood.  he deserves a proper pyre," or whatever the line is. As far as the facial expressions?  No, it just doesn't work for me.  Anger or shock I could see, but that sad expression?  Or am I misremembering it?

But I agree about the approval -- they probably just wanted that contrast there.  Loghain may make sense, but not really seeing as this was his best friend's son.  Zevran i can't even begin to figure out -- so I won't try.  

[maxernst]

Just played this for the first time last night and I have to cosign on a lot of these comments. I can't believe the "Cailan knew we were doomed"--it doesn't fit with what he was saying to Duncan about how the battles had been easier than he expected, nor with his refusal to wait for reinforcements, particularly with such definite correspondence from Celene.



I was also shocked that Alistair didn't have anything to say about finding Duncan's equipment. I was really expecting to make a gift of it to Alistair. And while seeing anybody strung up would be shocking, particularly somebody you knew, its impact is less when you recall that you saw a bunch of bodies strung up in the Korcari wilds. And Alistair's response to those was pretty hardened, like that of someone who'd seen it all before.



I didn't have Zev with me and I expected Morrigan's mild (-3) disapproval for the funeral pyre. She would say that he's dead and nothing we can do will help him in any way. I expect she approves if you throw him to the wolves.

[roundcrow]

sylvanaerie wrote...

After trying it with my Dalish I wanted to go remove the bongwater from Bioware's water coolers

LOL, this.  Probably a good idea regardless of incoherent DLC releases.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

RtO was full of WTF moments.



1. My DN and Blood Mage having a sad face upon discovering the king's corpse...even though both though he was an utter tool and looked quite decorative playing pseudo-Jesus on the stick.



2. The DLC was Cailan-centric, even though he played too small a role for anyone except maybe a human noble to really care about him. Most OOC in this case was Alistair's comments about him. Throught the game, Alistair pines and mourns Duncan, who was like a father to him, yet in RtO, he acts like a brother in mourning....even though in game, we learn that Alistair barely knew his half brother, wans what little he did know wasn't warm or fond, judging by convos you and Wynne can have with him. If anything, if Alistair sought vengance for someone fallen at Ostagar, it would be for Duncan. At most, giving Cailan a funeral pyre simply to conform with accepted death rites in Ferelden.



3. Lack of Duncan. And of course, finding Duncan's sword and dagger should have sent Alistair leaping around in joy, yet....nothing. And Alistair wanted something of Duncans to remind him by...the sword would have been perfect. never understood why this wasn't a gift, like Duncan's shield. Would make more sense, since Duncan was a rogue dual wield, never once seen him mentioned with a shield.



4. When dealing with Cailan's body, the only choice for a pyre is "He's of royal blood, he deserves a pyre". Again...WTF? What does his being a king have to do with him deserving a funeral pyre, which is basically standard practice for anyone in a Chantry nation, regardless of birth. And what if my Warden isn't building a pyre out of respect, but because it's cold, Ostagar is covered in snow, and Cailan makes fine kindling? Lame.



5. As others have mentioned....Wynne's bizarre flirting with Alistair right before you get ready to torch the king's corpse/feed it to the wolves/whatever. And Zevran's nonsensical, no explaination disapproval for doing anything other than leaving Cailan on a stick. Huh? Uh.ok...



6. Joining chalice. A gift opprtunity for Alistair, yet no cutscene, no major ap;proval boost, even though this is a gift that would have been very personal and precious?



About the only saving point in RtO is if you take Wynne and Loghain. Loghain's reaction to the secret documents, plus his awesome silencing of Wynne's sanctimonious preachiness makes it pretty worthwhile.

[Corker]

I think the 'risen ogre lolwut?' face the normally expressionless Warden makes is worth the price of the DLC. But that's about the best thing in it, aside from the shiny loot.

I'm of two minds on the Duncan gear. The 'I wish I had something of his' Alistair dialogue is keyed to the shield gift; while it might have been possible to also key it to Duncan's sword or dagger, I can see where that might not be simple and could introduce bugs. The answer would be to not include Duncan's gear as loot, though, and clearly someone thought that was too cool not to do. And... it is kind of cool, except for the way it clashes with that dialogue.

[Zjarcal]

sylvanaerie wrote...
The only one who didn't disappoint me in Ostagar was Dog who has a really cool moment at the time you decide to give Cailan a pyre. (Howling in eulogy).

Actually he howls in all three scenarios, even when you "let the darkspawn keep their trophy".

[Addai]

Duncan's weapons are very plain, so I can accept that Alistair wouldn't recognize them. You then just have to wink that the player knows what no one else does. I also think his chatter there, while not especially IC, is more mourning Cailan as a subject would his king rather than as a brother. I imagine they tried to avoid any brotherly comments because you might do the DLC before Redcliffe.



I do like the shiny lootz.

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...
I don't really understand the complaints about the Warden facial expressions.  Even if you didn't know Cailan from the next human, wouldn't you be horrified by a body strung up as a trophy?  Unless your Warden is very hardened.  I do see how it's a projection that some might not feel appropriate.

Horrified, maybe. Sad, no. Especially my City Elf who despised nobility and thought Cailan was a clown.

Also the line about royal blood doesn't bother me, either, since even playing a Dalish, I would probably know that that is the human custom and just out of respect would want to follow it.

Again, it depends on the character. Your Dalish wanted to respect human customs. Most of my characters couldn't care less about it and they would never say "he deserves a pyre because he's of royal blood".

[CalJones]

It's a monty haul and that's it. Loghain is more interesting to take there than Alistair but a lot of the lines seem OOC for both of them.

[Giggles_Manically]

RTO had different people writing it compared to the rest of Origins.



The Quest notes tell you what you are feeling, and the animations show emotions that you might not be feeling. Also some of the writing team complained about the Wynne Alistair flirting.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I don't really understand the complaints about the Warden facial expressions.  Even if you didn't know Cailan from the next human, wouldn't you be horrified by a body strung up as a trophy?  Unless your Warden is very hardened.  I do see how it's a projection that some might not feel appropriate.

Horrified, maybe. Sad, no. Especially my City Elf who despised nobility and thought Cailan was a clown.

My dwarf noble killed both her brothers, killled Connor with her own murder knife, slaughtered en entire clan of dalish elves down to the last child, and plans to return to Orzammar and decorate her throne with the gilded skulls of her enemies. My blood mage traded Connor's soul for sex with a desire demon, slaughtered the Dalish, Annuled the Circle, murderknifed people for kicks, and had caladius slaughter a whole bunch of elves for 1 point constitution.

Somehow, i don't think either are going to be particularly horrified at the sight of the king's corpse on a stick.

Again, it depends on the character. Your Dalish wanted to respect human customs. Most of my characters couldn't care less about it and they would never say "he deserves a pyre because he's of royal blood".

Exactly. MY DN did it simply because she learned that's what ALL humans do with their dead. My canon mage did it because it seemed the most sanitary way of disposing of a potentially corrupted corpse, as well as preventing future ressurection spells.

Royal blood had nothing to do with it. What the option should have been was: Let us build him a pyre and continue onward" or something.

[Zjarcal]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I don't really understand the complaints about the Warden facial expressions.  Even if you didn't know Cailan from the next human, wouldn't you be horrified by a body strung up as a trophy?  Unless your Warden is very hardened.  I do see how it's a projection that some might not feel appropriate.

Horrified, maybe. Sad, no. Especially my City Elf who despised nobility and thought Cailan was a clown.

My dwarf noble killed both her brothers, killled Connor with her own murder knife, slaughtered en entire clan of dalish elves down to the last child, and plans to return to Orzammar and decorate her throne with the gilded skulls of her enemies. My blood mage traded Connor's soul for sex with a desire demon, slaughtered the Dalish, Annuled the Circle, murderknifed people for kicks, and had caladius slaughter a whole bunch of elves for 1 point constitution.

Somehow, i don't think either are going to be particularly horrified at the sight of the king's corpse on a stick.

Those characters sound very similar to my City Elf, but keep in mind that I had Natural Bodies installed, so it WAS a horrifying sight! 

Again, it depends on the character. Your Dalish wanted to respect human customs. Most of my characters couldn't care less about it and they would never say "he deserves a pyre because he's of royal blood".

Exactly. MY DN did it simply because she learned that's what ALL humans do with their dead. My canon mage did it because it seemed the most sanitary way of disposing of a potentially corrupted corpse, as well as preventing future ressurection spells.

Royal blood had nothing to do with it. What the option should have been was: Let us build him a pyre and continue onward" or something.

That would've been a good choice for the line. One can imagine that the line is different (which is the advantage of a silent PC), but it's still annoying for me. My HN goes for the pyre option, and even in her case she wouldn't say "because he's of royal blood", she just does it out of respect.

My blood mage also lights the pyre but only after initially suggesting to leave him to the wolves and then telling Alistair (after he protests) to light his pyre if it's so important. My Dalish left him to the wolves thinking that it was the most fitting way to return to the body to the earth. My CE also left him to the wolves but she did mostly so that the wolves would shred that horrifying sight to pieces.