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[EccentricSage]

Koyasha wrote...

But that's the thing - the game gives you the option to either do something special for him, or treat him like any of the other dozens of dead people you run across, by leaving him like you leave everyone else. If you choose to build a pyre, you're doing something special for him because of who he is. Hell, even bothering to cut him down and throw him to the wolves is still doing more for him than you have the option to do for others, such as the soldiers hanging from the log when you go into the Korcari Wilds.

Personaly, this is the only way I can rationalize Zevran's disaproval, though it's still far too extream compared to his usual aproval drops.  I could see him turning up his nose at giving a failure of a King special treatment while the people he doomed are left to rot.  I could also see him turning up his nose at having to handle a rotting corpse.  Though the corpse does not apear rotten due to lazy craftsmanship, it most assuradly would be rotten and full of nasty bacteria and possibly blight.  I could see from a practical POV not wanting to disturb the remains.

Zevran's other bit of dialogue I could totaly see as his dark morbid sense of humor if Cailan's head was covored.  More shoddy craftsmanship.


I was thinking about buying Ostigar to bring Loghain there, as I'm working on a HN who will conscript Loghain when he gets to the landsmeet.  But now.... ugh...  Does anyone know of a mod that tweeks the facial expressions and dialogue to make it less.... jarringly inconsistant?  Maybe something that changes Alistair's dialogue in particular?  And also, WTF, why does Dunkan suddenly have a shield?


Another point of curiosity...  So... I'm getting the impression that you find Cailan's armor in a chest back where the encampment had been?  And possibly Dunkan's weapons, too?  Is there any explanation given for why their things are put neetly away, when we saw in the cutscene that they had their things (with the exception of Dunkan's non-existant shield) when they died fighting?  And shouldn't there be a gaping hole in the front of Cailan's chestplate?  lol

[Ferretinabun]

I liked RtO for the story - my one problem with it was that I found it quite buggy.



Hanz54321 - One thing I think you're forgetting; the Tower of Ishal should have been a death-trap. If Cailan had an inkling they were going to lose, then he's just sent his brother up a tower that would have been (and was) overrun by the invading darkspawn - backed him into a corner from which there would likely have been no escape. Loghain may or may not have known the Tower would be overrun, in which case he may or may not have been surprised to see the signal fire. But just because Alistair made it up was no guarantee he'd make it back down, and then escape from Ostagar. Flemeth's rescue was apparently totally unanticipated by anyone besides herself and possibly Morrigan.

[Pushover1985]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Funny - I really liked RtO and found the majority of it to not only make sense, but fill in the blanks.

I mean, I knew Cailan was an idiot the moment I met him. Duncan made it clear more men were needed, but he (Duncan) was too much of a wuss to call Cailan on it. Loghain knew there weren't enough soldiers, but his paranoia and prejudice led him to pre-emptively plan on abandoning the battle field and leaving the Wardens to die. He even sent Jowan to poison Eamon ahead of time because he knew Eamon would raise a stink when Loghain declared Cailan unfit and took command of Fereldan (Loghain begged Cailan not to fight - but poisoning Eamon is a clear indicator he did not plan on letting Cailan rule during the crisis).

So for it to suddenly dawn on Cailan the day of combat that he was effed made sense to me. Everyone told him it was so. Then the scouts come back and tell him they're in deep. "Quick, Eleric, take this key and give it to Duncan in the likely event we get creamed. Duncan will know whatto do with my effects." (see next paragraph)

Also, "We should send our very best - send ALISTAIR THE ONLY LIVING HEIR into the tower YOU JUST TOLD ME WAS NOT DANGEROUS because that's my best shot at the Theirin bloodline continuing." Anora confirms in the original Dragon Age that Cailan knew Alistair was his half-brother. Why would Cailan want the Wardens to have his gear and his budding treaty with Orlais? Because he knew it would get to Alistair . . . a warden and the next king.  Even the look on Loghain's face when he sees the beacon is lit - you know one of the thoughts going through his head is, "Crap!  They lived.  Now I'm going to have royal blood to dispute my daughter's claim to the throne and split the country."  Little did Loghain realize at that moment that the Bannorn did not even need Eamon or Alistair as a reason to tell Loghain to pound sand.

Anyway . . . swirling thoughts. . . I liked RtO. I like it better with Loghain, but typically I go early for the gear.

I'm sorry, but I completely (and respectfully) disagree. At the meeting before the battle Cailan says something like 'a king rides with the fabled grey wardens to stem the tide of evil' and when Loghain rejects Cailan's idea to wait for Orlesian forces Cailan says 'then our current forces will just have to suffice'

Then right at the start of battle Duncan says 'the plan will work your majesty' to which Cailan replies 'Of course it will. The blight ends here.'


There was never ever once a time when Cailan gave even a tiny inkling that he KNEW THEY WERE ALL DOOMED or even that they MIGHT be doomed! I'm sorry, but telling us that Cailan knew all this when it was never once indicated to the player is just lazy writing.

[EccentricSage]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Eccentric Sage,

Why does Duncan have a shield?  You ever switch jobs or switch departments at work?  I chalk it up to Duncan was a rogue (he was a thief before becoming a Warden), then became a warrior, then became a dual wield warrior with rogue skills.  Some NPCs transcend class.

The same could be asked of Cailan.  He has a two handed sword in the battle, but his shield and sword can be found at Ostagar.

Cailan's armor is not found neatly in a chest.  Pieces of it have been picked up by the Darkspawn who played with his corpse.  Duncan's weapons are found right where you last see them . . . in the chest of an Ogre.

As for the gaping hole - no - but it should be dented so badly it is unusable.  But by that logic everyone's armor should be.  There's no "repair armor" requirement in this game like Warcraft.  It's just assumed you get your gear mended on a regular basis.

Thanks for that info.  I'm so glad the 'chest' we find Dunkan'sw weapons in is the right kind.  XD

As for Cailan's... ah, so it's not in the chest the key is for?  That's just the documents?  And then his equipment is just haphazardly stashed by Darkspawn or something?

[Liliandra Nadiar]

The royal arms chest held King Meric's sword, not the two-hander Cailin used.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

@Skadi





You make Bob sad.

Don't worry, it's only a temporary state for Bob. Bob will have a grin from ear to ear once I am done with him.:wub:

[TheLegendofWade]

I'm going to have to replay this and actually pay attention this time...

[Giggles_Manically]

@ Skadi:

Unless you are a red head with an Orlesian accent, and a liking for caramel pudding.... all Bob will be left with is a distinct feeling of meh.

[Persephone]

Ferretinabun wrote...

I liked RtO for the story - my one problem with it was that I found it quite buggy.

Hanz54321 - One thing I think you're forgetting; the Tower of Ishal should have been a death-trap. If Cailan had an inkling they were going to lose, then he's just sent his brother up a tower that would have been (and was) overrun by the invading darkspawn - backed him into a corner from which there would likely have been no escape. Loghain may or may not have known the Tower would be overrun, in which case he may or may not have been surprised to see the signal fire. But just because Alistair made it up was no guarantee he'd make it back down, and then escape from Ostagar. Flemeth's rescue was apparently totally unanticipated by anyone besides herself and possibly Morrigan.

It has been confirmed that the Tower Of Ishal was not a trap set for the Wardens by Loghain. Just FYI.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Persephone wrote...

It has been confirmed that the Tower Of Ishal was not a trap set for the Wardens by Loghain. Just FYI.

BS! We all know Loghain cut a deal with the darkspawn so he could kill the Wardens and get a hold of Cailan's nifty shiny armor for himself!

[Addai]

Pushover1985 wrote...

There was never ever once a time when Cailan gave even a tiny inkling that he KNEW THEY WERE ALL DOOMED or even that they MIGHT be doomed! I'm sorry, but telling us that Cailan knew all this when it was never once indicated to the player is just lazy writing.

You never heard of someone saying what they want to be true instead of what they think could actually happen?  We see very little of Cailan or Loghain at Ostagar, only glimpses, purposely limited both to give the game story some tension and because our PCs have very limited information.

I find it completely plausible that in the last moment, Cailan had an attack of common sense and realized he had maneuvered himself into a corner, but it was both too late to do anything about it, and he was willing to throw a hail mary and hope Loghain and his father's mystical legacy caught it.

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Eccentric Sage,

Why does Duncan have a shield?  You ever switch jobs or switch departments at work?  I chalk it up to Duncan was a rogue (he was a thief before becoming a Warden), then became a warrior, then became a dual wield warrior with rogue skills.  Some NPCs transcend class.

Agreed.  Game classes are purposely limited but there is some acknowledgement that a lifelong warrior is not limited to one fighting style or equipment set.  Alistair is also shown as dual wield in his concept art, and in TST Loghain is portrayed at first as an archer/ rogue type who eventually took on a more heavy warrior fighting style.

[Wulfram]

Duncan's "The plan will work, your Majesty" might suggest he'd seen some nervousness in Cailan.



Though it also suggests he thought the battle was worth fighting.

[maxernst]

Persephone wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

I liked RtO for the story - my one problem with it was that I found it quite buggy.

Hanz54321 - One thing I think you're forgetting; the Tower of Ishal should have been a death-trap. If Cailan had an inkling they were going to lose, then he's just sent his brother up a tower that would have been (and was) overrun by the invading darkspawn - backed him into a corner from which there would likely have been no escape. Loghain may or may not have known the Tower would be overrun, in which case he may or may not have been surprised to see the signal fire. But just because Alistair made it up was no guarantee he'd make it back down, and then escape from Ostagar. Flemeth's rescue was apparently totally unanticipated by anyone besides herself and possibly Morrigan.

It has been confirmed that the Tower Of Ishal was not a trap set for the Wardens by Loghain. Just FYI.

 Hanz54321 suggests that Cailan knew he was doomed (as implied by the honor guard we meet) and therefore sent Alistair into the Tower for his safety.  But if they lose the battle of Ostagar, he isn't going to be safe there.  Loghain's intentions are entirely irrelevant to that question.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

 Hanz54321 suggests that Cailan knew he was doomed (as implied by the honor guard we meet) and therefore sent Alistair into the Tower for his safety.  But if they lose the battle of Ostagar, he isn't going to be safe there.  Loghain's intentions are entirely irrelevant to that question.

Cailan didn't even have to feel Impending Doom to either a) want to get his little bastard brother out of harm's way, and/or make sure his own glory from the big victory was not diluted by having little bastard brother on the front lines with the Wardens sharing it.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

 Hanz54321 suggests that Cailan knew he was doomed (as implied by the honor guard we meet) and therefore sent Alistair into the Tower for his safety.  But if they lose the battle of Ostagar, he isn't going to be safe there.  Loghain's intentions are entirely irrelevant to that question.

Cailan didn't even have to feel Impending Doom to either a) want to get his little bastard brother out of harm's way, and/or make sure his own glory from the big victory was not diluted by having little bastard brother on the front lines with the Wardens sharing it.

I'm not convinced enough people knew about Alistair to make B an issue.  I've often considered A as plausible, even sensible...although Cailan has plenty of opportunity to declare Alistair his heir, should he have chosen to do so.  Without a royal proclamation from him and no acknowledgement from Maric during his lifetime, Alistair's ascension to the throne isn't exactly assured.  Especially given that among those who even know who he is, there may be as many who think he's Eamon's son as Maric's.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...
I'm not convinced enough people knew about Alistair to make B an issue.  I've often considered A as plausible, even sensible...although Cailan has plenty of opportunity to declare Alistair his heir, should he have chosen to do so.  Without a royal proclamation from him and no acknowledgement from Maric during his lifetime, Alistair's ascension to the throne isn't exactly assured.  Especially given that among those who even know who he is, there may be as many who think he's Eamon's son as Maric's.

Cailan knows, and I think that's all that would matter.  He is very jealous of and conscious of his legacy, and the people around him were paranoid about Alistair stealing his thunder, something he would have absorbed I'm sure.  Eamon, Maric and Loghain all tell you that Alistair represented a threat to Cailan's rule.  Since Cailan himself was not overly popular, the moreso.  It's all speculation, but I think Cailan could have seen it as a both/and benefit to send Alistair off to do busy work while he claimed a big victory, while protecting little brother as well.

[Persephone]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It has been confirmed that the Tower Of Ishal was not a trap set for the Wardens by Loghain. Just FYI.

BS! We all know Loghain cut a deal with the darkspawn so he could kill the Wardens and get a hold of Cailan's nifty shiny armor for himself!

Now that you mention it!!!!! Of course, that was his plan all along!

[kyles3]

my biggest gripe is that all those nifty documents are apparently inadmissible in the landsmeet.

[Wulfram]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Nods.  Except several NPCs like Wynne and Loghain and Duncan all comment that the King must appear confident for the sake of morale for his troops.

Not that this stops Loghain from spreading misery, apparently.