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[maxernst]

Hanz54321 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I'm not convinced enough people knew about Alistair to make B an issue.  I've often considered A as plausible, even sensible...although Cailan has plenty of opportunity to declare Alistair his heir, should he have chosen to do so.  Without a royal proclamation from him and no acknowledgement from Maric during his lifetime, Alistair's ascension to the throne isn't exactly assured.  Especially given that among those who even know who he is, there may be as many who think he's Eamon's son as Maric's.

Whhhaaattt????   Eamon, Teagan, Loghain, Cailan, Duncan, and Anoya knew for certain.  You think they didn't tell anyone ever?  You're not convinced enough people knew about Alistair?  EVERYONE knew.  Hell, Al even tells you it was made very clear to him that there was no place for him making a play for the throne.  AKA "Hey Alistair, most of the nobility knows about you.  If you rock the boat someone is going to whack you out."

As far as a "royal proclomation" . . . um - we're talking about crisis decision making here.  Cailan saw no need to proclaim anything.  I think Addai makes a good point that Cailan was a narrcissist who would never do such a thing.  But in his last hours he realized he better do something.  So he gave Alistair the best chance to escape.

Which brings me back to my first paragraph - royal decree or not, EVERYBODY knows Alistair is heir to the throne.  So if Al were to successfully escape there wouldn't be too many people disputing he was Maric's son.  Hell, if Loghain's daughter had not married Cailan it would've been a foregone conclusion without much resistance at all.  Why do you think Loghain saw to it that Anora and Cailan got hitched only months after Maric's death?  Why not BEFORE Maric's death.  Because Maric knew better.

Even if EVERYONE knew Alistair was Maric's son (and Isolde apparently didn't), it doesn't matter because he's a bastard, and therefore are not in the succession line.  Maric never said, "this is my son and I want him in the succession line".  Cailan never said "He's my brother and I want him to be my successor should anything happen to me."  Find me one historical instance of a bastard automatically inheriting a throne when his father never acknowledged him as his son.

[sylvanaerie]

Umm Edward (who succeeded Henry on the throne) wasn't Mary Bolyn's child but Jane Seymour's, Henry's 3rd wife.
Following Edward's death of TB, the Seymours tried to place one of their own on the throne but that was overturned after 9 days.  (Lady Jane Grey, Edward's cousin, I think her name was) Then, It was Henry's oldest surviving daughter, Mary, the child of Catherine of Aragon (Henry's first wife) and then after Mary died (of presumed cancer, I believe), Elizabeth, Anne Bolyn's daughter, came to be queen.  At no time did a bastard come to the throne after Henry.

Elizabeth was often called a bastard by her Catholic detractors because they didn't acknowledge Henry's divorce from Catherine of Aragon but Henry was married to Elizabeth's mother, Anne (and this is the woman I think you are thinking of since she was the wife he beheaded for trumped up adultery/treason charges).

Henry had a bastard son with a mistress he had at the time he was married to Catherine of Aragon who was acknowleged by him but that boy (Henry Fitzroy) died at approximately 17 years of age to the 'sweating sickness' or possibly TB.  His father survived him by about a decade so he never had an opportunity to come to the throne.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 19 novembre 2010 - 11:24 .

[sylvanaerie]

Interesting enough Mary Bolyn was also one of Henry's mistresses and her son (Henry Carey) was possibly his though he was unacknowleged. Elizabeth was raised for a time following Henry's death by his last wife, Catherine Parr, who was married to Thomas Seymour who dallied with the princess when she was barely 14. Many believed he was trying to weasel his way to the throne by marrying her. Catherine died of pueperal fever (as Jane Seymour had). By this time Elizabeth had been sent away already to stay at another household though she continued to correspond with Catherine till her demise though she never actually saw her again.
Elizabeth was also on good terms with Anne of Cleves (Henry's 4th wife) as well and I believe she visited her frequently as well.

I believe Eamon, Teagan, Loghain, Anora, Cailan all knew about Alistair.  Other, less involved nobles (Say Bann Alfstanna or Bann Sighard) being less involved wouldn't know. 
Kinda pisses me off to think of all the family the boy could have had and they just tossed him aside like a pair of torn up shoes.
The only one who seems glad to see him after Ostagar is Teagan.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[sylvanaerie]

OMG YES!  I  Teagan!!  He is my favorite character in DA:O!  I saw him in that first cutscene giving Loghain hell and I never knew he would play a larger role in the game, just thought he was "Bann with a Backbone #1".  Then found him in Redcliffe and I said "Hey!  I know this guy!"
Teagan is the total package character!
Plus his lines with a mage are my favorite in the game !!

[Maria13]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Interesting enough Mary Bolyn was also one of Henry's mistresses and her son (Henry Carey) was possibly his though he was unacknowleged. Elizabeth was raised for a time following Henry's death by his last wife, Catherine Parr, who was married to Thomas Seymour who dallied with the princess when she was barely 14. Many believed he was trying to weasel his way to the throne by marrying her. Catherine died of pueperal fever (as Jane Seymour had). By this time Elizabeth had been sent away already to stay at another household though she continued to correspond with Catherine till her demise though she never actually saw her again.
Elizabeth was also on good terms with Anne of Cleves (Henry's 4th wife) as well and I believe she visited her frequently as well.

I believe Eamon, Teagan, Loghain, Anora, Cailan all knew about Alistair.  Other, less involved nobles (Say Bann Alfstanna or Bann Sighard) being less involved wouldn't know. 
Kinda pisses me off to think of all the family the boy could have had and they just tossed him aside like a pair of torn up shoes.
The only one who seems glad to see him after Ostagar is Teagan.

This is just speculation but perhaps they were all a bit touch and go about Ali 'cause they knew or suspected his mother was an elf... Would that explain why Cailan doesn't quite have the guts to recognise him?

[sylvanaerie]

Maybe don't know. Plus we have no conclusive proof Fiona is his mom. (When DG says "yes, Fiona is his mom" then we can all say "Okay, that's it then"). Yes, I know Maric wasn't the type to fling around with women and Fiona did have his son and give the child to him and DG practically shoved it down our throats that she is. But there is still that off chance he's jerking us at the end of the line with a red herring and laughing at every post that assumes Fiona is Alistair's mom.
Because anyone who would use the line "You'll see a sword up close soon, son." from Fergus to Oren is capable of anything.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 19 novembre 2010 - 06:29 .

[Maria13]

On DG, agreed, you have to LOVE THE EVIL

[Pushover1985]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Nods.  Except several NPCs like Wynne and Loghain and Duncan all comment that the King must appear confident for the sake of morale for his troops.  Not sure if you had those discussions - a lot of people play this game and never hear certain conversation options because there are so many.  But it's made very clear by a lot of people that Cailan is like a prize fighter stepping into the ring talking tough in orderto sell the fight, but he knows his odds of winning are poor.

So in that scene right before the battle when Cailan replies "Of course it will (in an irritated tone I might add)", he's FoS and he knows it.  He also sounds scared as hell to me - irritated that Duncan is trying to pump up the king's confidence because Duncan knows Cailan needs a boost (and a machine gun).

I did hear those conversations, but I mostly forgot about them. Hmm, your arguments do make sense. Thanks for helping me see this from a different perspective.
I still don't agree completely. I mean I still think there is more evidence for Cailan not knowing that we are actually shown rather than the evidence for Cailan knowing that we are TOLD about off screen.. but I can see where you're coming from at least.

[sevalaricgirl]

Having played the game four times, here are my thoughts. I play human noble female. I can see her expression being natural. Her father was a teryn which is just under a king. Cailan was thoughtful to her and respected her family. I don't think he sent Alistair and HNF to the tower to save Alistair, I think he sent them to the tower to save HNF. He thinks that the safest place for the new warden who's just lost her family. HNF honors the king even though she doesn't know him. She is nobility and her father did so, yes, I can see her building a pyre to honor the king. What I didn't like is the flirting Wynne (can't stand the harpy) who when I RTO knows that I'm in a relationship with Alistair because she's harped at me over it. She doesn't know her place. Also it is completely out of character for Alistair to appreciate Wynne's comments. I think my next play through I'm not taking Wynne from Circle Tower. I dislike her that much.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 20 novembre 2010 - 02:47 .

[Melca36]

I think this was the moment Cailan and Duncan realized they were going to lose.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

Even if EVERYONE knew Alistair was Maric's son (and Isolde apparently didn't), it doesn't matter because he's a bastard, and therefore are not in the succession line.  Maric never said, "this is my son and I want him in the succession line".  Cailan never said "He's my brother and I want him to be my successor should anything happen to me."  Find me one historical instance of a bastard automatically inheriting a throne when his father never acknowledged him as his son.

I think the conversation has moved on, but I'll just say we don't need to look at historical examples.  Everyone who knew the truth about Alistair tells you that part of the reason he was hidden away was to protect Cailan's rule.  He was a threat, even as unacknowledged bastard.  He would have been more of a threat had Maric recognized him, but the fact that you can actually successfully make him king shows that game lore treats this as a serious possibility.

[Addai]

Pushover1985 wrote...

Ok, this has been bugging me fo a while. The guy who tells you about the key to King Cailan's chest says that even if Loghain hadn't pulled out of the battle, Cailan *knew* that there would be no victory at Ostagar. Really? So that's why he was on the FRONT LINES and refused to wait for reinforcements. Then the guy explains away why Cailan gave absolutely no hint of knowing they were all doomed by saying Cailan put on all his bravado for the sake of his men. Really? I guess it's possible, but... really??

(husband)

It's called a Retrocon.   They basically did Revisionist History on the character in the hopes of making him more sympathetic and deep.     And yes for some of us, like myself it had the opposite affect.   I think it makes him even more culpable.

[Mnemnosyne]

Loghain wouldn't have believed Duncan.  There's no reason for him to.  It would have seemed like another ridiculous story made up for the sole purpose of cementing their importance.

That's not to say that Loghain not knowing this wasn't a problem, but the failure was in the general policy of Grey Wardens, not Duncan personally.  There was nothing Duncan could have said at that point to convince Loghain, especially since this isn't anything where he could simply show something as proof.  The only proof would be to demonstrate, having someone else kill the Archdemon and have it pop right back up again.

The Grey Wardens' nonsensical policy of keeping the fact that the Archdemons will only truly die when killed by a Warden is to blame.  If they insist on keeping the part where the killing Warden dies secret, they could still do that while having it well known that a Warden must deal the killing blow, specifically to prevent anyone from ever thinking Wardens aren't necessary. 

If this was a well-known fact, maybe it would have been enough.  Even then the fact that it had been four centuries since the last Blight would somewhat blunt this well-known fact into distant legend, and make it quite possible to disbelieve.

[Dagamier]

Grave digging this post. Oh well.

Although I agree with a lot of things here in regards to RtO, the whole "he barely knew Cailin" or "He shouldn't of gotten that emotional with Cailin", if i'm correct, Cailin IS Alistair's HALF BROTHER. Therefore it makes sense for him to feel awful, whether he knew him or not family is family. I don't get why we weren't shown Duncan's body however...

[Fuggyt]

Dagamier wrote...

Grave digging this post. Oh well.

Although I agree with a lot of things here in regards to RtO, the whole "he barely knew Cailin" or "He shouldn't of gotten that emotional with Cailin", if i'm correct, Cailin IS Alistair's HALF BROTHER. Therefore it makes sense for him to feel awful, whether he knew him or not family is family. I don't get why we weren't shown Duncan's body however...

He was probably eaten.  They'd have to show a pile of ogre dung.

[Pantherus]

I largely enjoyed RtO - I didn't really notice the sad face in the cut scene and things like that are easy to ignore IMO - just gloss your eyes and pretend it's a horrified/amused/impassive expression instead...

Loved the comment above about the person asking WTH about Duncan's Shield when that was in the original game and the Sword/Dagger came afterwards.

A lot of this DLC comes down to fairly lazy writing which is common for DLC and minor expansions but unfortunately the nature of this DLC is that it ties in quite tightly with the main story (while Warden's Keep, Stone Prisoner, etc are more disconnected).

[emeraldtrader]

a thread that has been re-animated!
Pantherus wrote:"A lot of this DLC comes down to fairly lazy writing which is common for DLC and minor expansions but unfortunately the nature of this DLC is that it ties in quite tightly with the main story."
why include Duncan's weapons if they hold no meaning? and the Joining chalice? Some dialog makes no sense: Alistair "Why am I not surprised. Is there someone else we should be bringing back from the brink of death?"
Why the disapproval points? I changed party members out before returning to Cailins site. as for the "sad face" my warden (and all others make) at seeing Calin's body, I would think the whole situation is cause for sadness. or exhaustion.
I like the quest well enough, so I just grit my teeth and play through.