302 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

TIM believes what he does is for the Good of Mankind. Mankind is also Cerberus and vice versa in TIM's eyes as well. Ergo, those that oppose Cerberus also oppose Mankind in TIM's eyes. Yeah... His intentions were good, at the start after Firt Contact, but the path he's taken is downright evil even if he doesn't see it as such.

[GothamKnight129]

TIM is sort of like a Bond villian who doesn't believe that he's evil isn't he?

[V-rex]

Ask yourself this:

There's this shady militarized organization that is named after the demonic three headed dog that guards the gates of the underworld in Greek Mythology, it is staffed by people in slick black uniforms with logo's plastered all over them akin to the swatstica on SS uniforms and its leader is a man with glowing eyes who lurks in the dark shadows, backlit by a burning red sun and of whom is always smoking.
Sound like a friendly bunch?

Seriously, even without mentioning all the sick experiements, terrorist acts, assassinations and other illegal activity, this is a company with a hell of an image problem. God, get vibrant colorful uniforms and call your army something less intimidating, then it would be easier to trust you.

Still as the list pointed out on the previous page, there have been MANY awful things that Cerberus have done, awful, unforgivable, irreversable things either by intention or by accident. I am not going to forget Akuze, or what happened on the Migrant Fleet, or what became of the original leader of Terra Firma or what went down on Pragia.

I don't know if I would call them 'evil' but I'm certainly not going to call them trustworthy either. Just because they seem to have good motivations doesn't excuse the extreme nature of thier methods.

Modifié par V-rex, 18 novembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Landline]

In answer to OPs question:



Nope.

[Landon Frost]

I hope in ME3 your given a choice of Alliance or Cerberus... it sounds like most people would chose Alliance but it is nice to know I have some Cerberus love here too



For the ones that love to hate on Cerberus for their immoral actions, the STG caused the genophage that almost caused total genocide of a species... AFTER using the Krogan to cause genocide. 2 genocides ftw? Just sayin...

[jkruse05]

I think I've got to jump on the inept and incompetent bandwagon here. Seems to me TIM has a hell of a time keeping track of his organization. He acts like he knows everything going on in the universe, but in so many cases he has no idea what his own people are doing. Plus, he has a nasty habit of using the 'need to know basis' excuse when knowing would be a huge advantage. He just, I dunno, he puts too much effort into being intimidating and mysterious and not enough into actually managing Cerberus.

[Inverness Moon]

I think people thinking of Cerberus as inept is an example of bad writing and lack of forethought on BioWare's part. Whoever wrote the Cerberus missions in ME1 obviously wasn't aware they were going to be used to bring Shepard back in the sequel.

With that in mind, as far as I'm concerned, Cerberus is plenty competent, but failure is a natural part of their high risk high reward operations. If BioWare had been thinking ahead, they might have revealed some successes on Cerberus's part to offset the failures. Simply consider how many times Edison failed to invent the incandescent light bulb. But, when he succeeded, it made all his efforts more than worth it.

Anyhow, it is hard to see Cerberus as "bad" when they've been the only ones trying to do anything to save the galaxy for two years.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[Landon Frost]

jkruse05 wrote...

I think I've got to jump on the inept and incompetent bandwagon here. Seems to me TIM has a hell of a time keeping track of his organization. He acts like he knows everything going on in the universe, but in so many cases he has no idea what his own people are doing. Plus, he has a nasty habit of using the 'need to know basis' excuse when knowing would be a huge advantage. He just, I dunno, he puts too much effort into being intimidating and mysterious and not enough into actually managing Cerberus.

He intentionally does not get involved in the specifics.  Cerberus operates in cells that each pursue their own goals, with only an oversight by TIM.  ME2 is a good example,  TIM tells you what he wants done but leaves how up to you.  He doesn't care if you bully the whole galaxy or stand on the corner giving out care packages to the poor with the Cerberus logo on it.. as long as you get his objective accomplished.  Not to say that he won't .. "encourage" you at times.. 

[Katamariguy]

Cerberus? Bad?



YEEEEEEESSSSSS

[Phategod1]

For what they did to you, Jack, and that soldier in ME1 they broke the very laws of nature and ethics. there goal is human survival but they fail to realize the fate of the Universe hinges on all species working together not just on humanity.

[SkittlesKat96]

They aren't bad but they go to extremes to reach their goals which make them come off badly to everyone else, maybe the extreme stuff they do will be worthwhile but it's also very risky and Cerberus could end up screwing people over or stuffing up the entire galaxy.

[AntiChri5]

For the ones that love to hate on Cerberus for their immoral actions, the STG caused the genophage that almost caused total genocide of a species... AFTER using the Krogan to cause genocide. 2 genocides ftw? Just sayin...

You mean the time when the council defeated an attwmpt by the reapers to take the citadel?

And then when they managed to end a war with the krogan without killing them off entirely?

Simply consider how many times Edison failed to invent the incandescent light bulb. But, when he succeeded, it made all his efforts more than worth it.

Remind me, how many people died in the invention of the light bulb?

[Skirlasvoud]

Landon Frost wrote...

I hope in ME3 your given a choice of Alliance or Cerberus... it sounds like most people would chose Alliance but it is nice to know I have some Cerberus love here too

For the ones that love to hate on Cerberus for their immoral actions, the STG caused the genophage that almost caused total genocide of a species... AFTER using the Krogan to cause genocide. 2 genocides ftw? Just sayin...

You underestimate how much finesse was required in the Genophage. Not only when applying it, but also in upkeeping it. The STG carefully moniters its effects and has designed it as such that the Krogan species is not whiped out. Beforehand, these things were carefully discussed amonst the council races and only when consencus was reached, created. A shame that the Turians used it earlier than had planned, but by then the genophage was tailored enough, not to do too much harm. 
It's not so much a case of "eredicating" then it is a case of reabilitation and carefull warding.

Cerberus on the other hand, has trouble maintaining itself, let alone warding over another species.
 
Also, the council is willing to hold itself responsible for what happened, while Cerberus frequently dismisses all liability.

When one asks: "Who caused the genophage?" The council raises its hand and takes responsibility, while Mordin lowers his head in regret while he engages you in rational discussion. It takes some convincing maybe, but they're at least willing to make up for their mistakes when the situation warrants.

When one asks: "Who imprisoned and tortured jack? Who released husks and rachni on unsuspecting colonies?" The Illusive man raises his shoulders and dismisses all responsibility. Might have been some cell he financed within his organisation, but he can't be expected to keep track of all that. The people who did that are dead and that's where the buck stops. Might happen again too, but it's all in the name of humanity.


I doubt that Cerberus would be capable of carrying out a genophage, let alone with moral competence. 



P.S. This is the third threat started in the discussion of TIM and Cerberus. Whoever came up with them should get a flippin' medal. Might not be a villain we all love, but we sure can't shut up about them. I love dillemas 

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 18 novembre 2010 - 09:41 .

[Landon Frost]

AntiChri5 wrote...

For the ones that love to hate on Cerberus for their immoral actions, the STG caused the genophage that almost caused total genocide of a species... AFTER using the Krogan to cause genocide. 2 genocides ftw? Just sayin...

You mean the time when the council defeated an attwmpt by the reapers to take the citadel?
And then when they managed to end a war with the krogan without killing them off entirely?

Simply consider how many times Edison failed to invent the incandescent light bulb. But, when he succeeded, it made all his efforts more than worth it.

Remind me, how many people died in the invention of the light bulb?

I am sure the STG experimented on Krogan to develop the genophage.  Its not like they sat around injecting apples with genophage syrum.  They are no better/worse than Cerberus.  They did what they had to do.

Modifié par Landon Frost, 18 novembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[Landon Frost]

Skirlasvoud wrote...

Landon Frost wrote...

I hope in ME3 your given a choice of Alliance or Cerberus... it sounds like most people would chose Alliance but it is nice to know I have some Cerberus love here too

For the ones that love to hate on Cerberus for their immoral actions, the STG caused the genophage that almost caused total genocide of a species... AFTER using the Krogan to cause genocide. 2 genocides ftw? Just sayin...

You underestimate how much finesse was required in the Genophage. Not only when applying it, but also in upkeeping it. The STG carefully moniters its effects and has designed it as such that the Krogan species is not whiped out. Beforehand, these things were carefully discussed amonst the council races and only when consencus was reached, created. A shame that the Turians used it earlier than had planned, but by then the genophage was tailored enough, not to do too much harm. 
It's not so much a case of "eredicating" then it is a case of reabilitation and carefull warding.

Cerberus on the other hand, has trouble maintaining itself, let alone warding over another species.
 
Also, the council is willing to hold itself responsible for what happened, while Cerberus frequently dismisses all liability.

When one asks: "Who caused the genophage?" The council raises its hand and takes responsibility, while Mordin lowers his head in regret while he engages you in rational discussion. It takes some convincing maybe, but they're at least willing to make up for their mistakes when the situation warrants.

When one asks: "Who imprisoned and tortured jack? Who released husks and rachni on unsuspecting colonies?" The Illusive man raises his shoulders and dismisses all responsibility. Might have been some cell he financed within his organisation, but he can't be expected to keep track of all that. The people who did that are dead and that's where the buck stops. Might happen again too, but it's all in the name of humanity.


I doubt that Cerberus would be capable of carrying out a genophage, let alone with moral competence. 



P.S. This is the third threat started in the discussion of TIM and Cerberus. Whoever came up with them should get a flippin' medal. Might not be a villain we all love, but we sure can't shut up about them. I love dillemas 

So Cerberus would ok in your eyes if they were public about everything and justified it? 

[Skirlasvoud]

Landon Frost wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

For the ones that love to hate on Cerberus for their immoral actions, the STG caused the genophage that almost caused total genocide of a species... AFTER using the Krogan to cause genocide. 2 genocides ftw? Just sayin...

You mean the time when the council defeated an attwmpt by the reapers to take the citadel?
And then when they managed to end a war with the krogan without killing them off entirely?

Simply consider how many times Edison failed to invent the incandescent light bulb. But, when he succeeded, it made all his efforts more than worth it.

Remind me, how many people died in the invention of the light bulb?

I am sure the STG experimented on Krogan to develop the genophage.  Its not like they sat around injecting apples with genophage syrum.  They are no better/worse than Cerberus.  They did what they had to do.

Wrong, Mordin and the entire STG never experimented on species capable of higher calculus, only on live tissue samples. How do I know that? Mordin told me. How can I trust that? Because the Salarian has personal responsibility and the STG answers to a goverment that cares about its reputation.  I can't say the same for Cerberus.

For other points, see my post above.

[Skirlasvoud]

Landon Frost wrote...

So Cerberus would ok in your eyes if they were public about everything and justified it? 

Yes! If they went public and were honest about everything they did, I would be okay about them. If TIM walked into C-SEC or the Citadel tower and introduced himself. I'd be okay with him.

I still wouldn't be okay with their action however and neither would 90% of the galaxy. The organisation would be disbanded on the spot and TIM charged for everything the rogue cells did. They were his responsibility.


They are acting like a covert operation because they are immoral, not because others force them to.

[Landon Frost]

Skirlasvoud wrote...

Landon Frost wrote...

So Cerberus would ok in your eyes if they were public about everything and justified it? 

Yes! If they went public and were honest about everything they did, I would be okay about them. If TIM walked into C-SEC or the Citadel tower and introduced himself. I'd be okay with him.

I still wouldn't be okay with their action however and neither would 90% of the galaxy. The organisation would be disbanded on the spot and TIM charged for everything the rogue cells did. They were his responsibility.


They are acting like a covert operation because they are immoral, not because others force them to.

To be fair... they aren't very covert in ME2.  They clearly label the SR-2 as Cerberus and Shep is well known to be working with this.  If C-Sec/Alliance/etc were really that much against Cerberus I am sure the citadel fleet could impound/destroy the SR-2 or arrest Shepard while on the station.  Not to mention the council can re-instate his Spectre status despite being a known to be with Cerberus.  The SR-2 even identifies itself as Cerberus... in Talis loyalilty mission they say "Your ship is idenitifying itself as Cerberus"...

I believe that a lot of why Cerberus is not liked is because of Anti-Cerberus propaganda by the Citadel Races and the Systems Alliance.  The whole reason Cerberus even exists is because the Alliance formed it, lets not forget.  Also, they obviously have many supporters if so many companies/admirals/etc give them support.

And the STG may have experimented with tissue samples but comon... eventually they  had to test it on a live krogan.  Mordin also says he "corrected" korgan birthrates to normal natural rates... which isen't fair because the Krogan homeworld is violent and they are a very aggressive people as a result.  They evolved a high birth rate because it was needed to survive.  

[Skirlasvoud]

Landon Frost wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

Landon Frost wrote...

So Cerberus would ok in your eyes if they were public about everything and justified it? 

Yes! If they went public and were honest about everything they did, I would be okay about them. If TIM walked into C-SEC or the Citadel tower and introduced himself. I'd be okay with him.

I still wouldn't be okay with their action however and neither would 90% of the galaxy. The organisation would be disbanded on the spot and TIM charged for everything the rogue cells did. They were his responsibility.


They are acting like a covert operation because they are immoral, not because others force them to.

To be fair... they aren't very covert in ME2.  They clearly label the SR-2 as Cerberus and Shep is well known to be working with this.  If C-Sec/Alliance/etc were really that much against Cerberus I am sure the citadel fleet could impound/destroy the SR-2 or arrest Shepard while on the station.  Not to mention the council can re-instate his Spectre status despite being a known to be with Cerberus.  The SR-2 even identifies itself as Cerberus... in Talis loyalilty mission they say "Your ship is idenitifying itself as Cerberus"...

I believe that a lot of why Cerberus is not liked is because of Anti-Cerberus propaganda by the Citadel Races and the Systems Alliance.  The whole reason Cerberus even exists is because the Alliance formed it, lets not forget.  Also, they obviously have many supporters if so many companies/admirals/etc give them support.

And the STG may have experimented with tissue samples but comon... eventually they  had to test it on a live krogan.  Mordin also says he "corrected" korgan birthrates to normal natural rates... which isen't fair because the Krogan homeworld is violent and they are a very aggressive people as a result.  They evolved a high birth rate because it was needed to survive.  

The reason why either the Alliance or the Citadel Council does not yet actively attack or impound Cerberus, is exactly the reason why I hate Cerberus so much. Both these goverments will first need evidence to prosecute any individual or organisation within their space. This alone should tell you how much organisations like the STG, Alien Goverments and the Alliance need to play by the rules, while Cerberus doesn't with their tacit use of assasination or sabotage (regardless of how much TIM waives responsibility).
Don't confuse the lack of all-out hostility with acceptance. Giving Shep his title back, is a token of good will towards the man/woman himself, not Cerberus.


Not liked because of propaganda? Have you played both games? Propaganda is only propaganda when its not true. Everything about Cerberus's extreme methods is true, even TIM admit to it in lesser extend, when he's not busy covering up even worse acts of infamy within his organisation.
Cerberus is not liked because what they are.
I'm not sure to their connection with the alliance, if any at all, but this doesn't change anything. Those in the alliance who would support them, are just as bad as Cerberus, if not wholly part of.

If a saint has a child who commits murder, the child is not exempted and the crime no less reprehensible, just because the parent is a saint. The murder says nothing directly about the saint, but if the saint chooses to help the child commit crimes or cover it up, than the saint is a saint no longer. Both get locked up.
For now, the alliance denounces Cerberus and is prosecuting the organisation when evidence is provided.


As for the Genophage, living in outer space and founding new colonies on worlds not as hostile, made their birthrates dangerous and the krogan themselves decided to use that birthrate against the rest of the galaxy. The genophage was a correction on that. It was like disarming a fellon, albeit with often tragic consequences.
However, this thread isn't about the genophage. It's about Cerberus and I oppose any comparison with the STG.

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:32 .

[AntiChri5]

I am sure the STG experimented on Krogan to develop the genophage.

Cannot be known. They used tissue samples, but we don't have any evidence to support or deny the claim.

They are no better/worse than Cerberus.  They did what they had to do.

Except that the STG was responding to a clear, serious, immediate threat.

Cerberus has only been taking action against the Reapers for two years, so for the vast majority of the experiments this comparison cannot be made.

[AntiChri5]

Cerberus is an enemy of the Alliance and Council.

In Retribution, Anderson provides the turian military with information on Cerberus personel and facilities.



Most Cerberus agents are killed or arrested, only a handful escape.

You cannot dismiss Cerberus' reputation when one of their own veterans says they have been called terrorists, and with good reason.

[Skirlasvoud]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Cerberus is an enemy of the Alliance and Council.
In Retribution, Anderson provides the turian military with information on Cerberus personel and facilities.

Most Cerberus agents are killed or arrested, only a handful escape.
You cannot dismiss Cerberus' reputation when one of their own veterans says they have been called terrorists, and with good reason.

I wouldn't say that Cerberus is an openly reckognized enemy just yet. You can get Miranda and Jacob through C-SEC just fine and the SR-2 can land anywhere without getting shot down. 

Like I said, the Alliance will need evidence first, although Anderson is off course free to distribute intel to the Turians as he sees fit. What they do with it, depending on what they witness there, is their business (haven't read Revelation. Maybe Cerberus did something ghastly or dangerous to the Turians there.). There's a reason why you can hand Cerberus Data over to Admiral Hacket, or let Corperal Toombs and the scientist live long enough so that Cerberus can be brought to trial. 

Only a matter of time before it's curtains for Cerberus though, and the Alliance can declare them an enemy to be shot at sight. Happy day that. I have a Sniper Sheppard and a bullet with TIM's name on it.

 

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 18 novembre 2010 - 10:47 .

[Landon Frost]

Skirlasvoud wrote...

Landon Frost wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

Landon Frost wrote...

So Cerberus would ok in your eyes if they were public about everything and justified it? 

Yes! If they went public and were honest about everything they did, I would be okay about them. If TIM walked into C-SEC or the Citadel tower and introduced himself. I'd be okay with him.

I still wouldn't be okay with their action however and neither would 90% of the galaxy. The organisation would be disbanded on the spot and TIM charged for everything the rogue cells did. They were his responsibility.


They are acting like a covert operation because they are immoral, not because others force them to.

To be fair... they aren't very covert in ME2.  They clearly label the SR-2 as Cerberus and Shep is well known to be working with this.  If C-Sec/Alliance/etc were really that much against Cerberus I am sure the citadel fleet could impound/destroy the SR-2 or arrest Shepard while on the station.  Not to mention the council can re-instate his Spectre status despite being a known to be with Cerberus.  The SR-2 even identifies itself as Cerberus... in Talis loyalilty mission they say "Your ship is idenitifying itself as Cerberus"...

I believe that a lot of why Cerberus is not liked is because of Anti-Cerberus propaganda by the Citadel Races and the Systems Alliance.  The whole reason Cerberus even exists is because the Alliance formed it, lets not forget.  Also, they obviously have many supporters if so many companies/admirals/etc give them support.

And the STG may have experimented with tissue samples but comon... eventually they  had to test it on a live krogan.  Mordin also says he "corrected" korgan birthrates to normal natural rates... which isen't fair because the Krogan homeworld is violent and they are a very aggressive people as a result.  They evolved a high birth rate because it was needed to survive.  

The reason why either the Alliance or the Citadel Council does not yet actively attack or impound Cerberus, is exactly the reason why I hate Cerberus so much. Both these goverments will first need evidence to prosecute any individual or organisation within their space. This alone should tell you how much organisations like the STG, Alien Goverments and the Alliance need to play by the rules, while Cerberus doesn't with their tacit use of assasination or sabotage (regardless of how much TIM waives responsibility).
Don't confuse the lack of all-out hostility with acceptance. Giving Shep his title back, is a token of good will towards the man/woman himself, not Cerberus.


Not liked because of propaganda? Have you played both games? Propaganda is only propaganda when its not true. Everything about Cerberus's extreme methods is true, even TIM admit to it in lesser extend, when he's not busy covering up even worse acts of infamy within his organisation.
Cerberus is not liked because what they are.
I'm not sure to their connection with the alliance, if any at all, but this doesn't change anything. Those in the alliance who would support them, are just as bad as Cerberus, if not wholly part of.

If a saint has a child who commits murder, the child is not exempted and the crime no less reprehensible, just because the parent is a saint. The murder says nothing directly about the saint, but if the saint chooses to help the child commit crimes or cover it up, than the saint is a saint no longer. Both get locked up.
For now, the alliance denounces Cerberus and is prosecuting the organisation when evidence is provided.


As for the Genophage, living in outer space and founding new colonies on worlds not as hostile, made their birthrates dangerous and the krogan themselves decided to use that birthrate against the rest of the galaxy. The genophage was a correction on that. It was like disarming a fellon, albeit with often tragic consequences.
However, this thread isn't about the genophage. It's about Cerberus and I oppose any comparison with the STG.

Cerberbus is an Alliance Black-Ops division gone rogue.  It is state in the game at some point.. I believe by the Admiral in the first game.  My point was that the Alliance created a black-ops division to do the very things that they now condemn Cerberus for doing.

I just really hope ME3 lets you have a choice.. I am tired of jumping loyalties.  I think the loyalty from ME2 is a subtle hint to wether or not you can defect back to the alliance or stay Cerberus in ME3.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Landon Frost wrote...

I just really hope ME3 lets you have a choice.. I am tired of jumping loyalties.  I think the loyalty from ME2 is a subtle hint to wether or not you can defect back to the alliance or stay Cerberus in ME3.

Agreed, though I suspect in ME3 it will be more just Shepard doing his/her own thing rather than being affiliated with any large organisation (except for the Spectres of course).