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[Christmas Ape]

As compared to the Special Tasks Group, the Turian Hierarchy, or any of the other black operations groups given a free moral pass to wreak even greater havoc because they have the luxury of wrapping their flag around themselves? Not at all.

Cerberus has yet to condemn a species to extinction in slow-motion unless they 'learn their lesson'. Cerberus has yet to flatten civilian housing complexes to strike a handful of low-value, low-threat military targets. Cerberus is not a military junta exerting culturally incompatible control over another species. They are, and remain, a paramilitary cabal dedicated to bringing a strengthened humanity to the forefront of galactic affairs, beginning with a) closing the knowledge gap between humanity and the Council Races and exerting pressure of all kinds on human politics - and thereby Alliance politics - to bring about the same self-interested nationalist bent as seen in the Council races. Alongside these primary functions, they have dedicated a significant portion of their operational resources to halting the Reaper threat, an act of benefit to all sapient life.



And Mengele is a complete cop-out on the eezo exposure issue. Eezo exposure is proven to cause biotic manifestation in a percentage of cases involving in utero exposure. Mengele barely even took notes, let alone had some manner of scientific merit to his work; pure personal horror theater with a tissue-thin veneer of science over top of it because he had a PhD. It's really closer to the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, conducted by the one and only U.S. Public Health Service, but I know the moral outrage loses its punch when you can't force the National Socialists in there.

[Phaedon]

Christmas Ape wrote...

As compared to the Special Tasks Group, the Turian Hierarchy, or any of the other black operations groups given a free moral pass to wreak even greater havoc because they have the luxury of wrapping their flag around themselves? Not at all.
Cerberus has yet to condemn a species to extinction in slow-motion unless they 'learn their lesson'. Cerberus has yet to flatten civilian housing complexes to strike a handful of low-value, low-threat military targets. Cerberus is not a military junta exerting culturally incompatible control over another species. They are, and remain, a paramilitary cabal dedicated to bringing a strengthened humanity to the forefront of galactic affairs, beginning with a) closing the knowledge gap between humanity and the Council Races and exerting pressure of all kinds on human politics - and thereby Alliance politics - to bring about the same self-interested nationalist bent as seen in the Council races. Alongside these primary functions, they have dedicated a significant portion of their operational resources to halting the Reaper threat, an act of benefit to all sapient life.

Who said that they were good ?

And Mengele is a complete cop-out on the eezo exposure issue. Eezo exposure is proven to cause biotic manifestation in a percentage of cases involving in utero exposure. Mengele barely even took notes, let alone had some manner of scientific merit to his work; pure personal horror theater with a tissue-thin veneer of science over top of it because he had a PhD. It's really closer to the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, conducted by the one and only U.S. Public Health Service, but I know the moral outrage loses its punch when you can't force the National Socialists in there.

I believe that the joke was aimed at TIM's ruthlessness. And how does TIM have a scientific merit ? Or a PhD ?

-Skorpious- wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The point is you're totally making up the Turians' share of the effort.

From the Kaidan/Joker conversation it's clear that the Council invested some money into the project, and from the conversation with the inspecting admiral it's clear that the spacial separation of the Bridge from the CIC is the element of design originating with the Turians. That's it.

The stealth system and the Tantalus drive core are products of the Humans' ingenuity and innovative thinking, as evidenced by Shepard's "Show 'em we think outside the box" remark.

Thats an assumption of both of your parts. Nobody knows exacly how much each party contributed financially, technologically, or conceptualy to the overall design, making claiming that "mostly the turians/humans built it" argument irrelevant. Sure, Shepard's "show em' we think out of the box" comment may have alluded that the Normandy's innovations have been suggested by a human scientist, but whose to say that it wasn't a turian whose engineering expertise and design made said innovations possible? 

I was about to answer directly to Zulu, but you make a fair point. It's an 'educated guess', yes, so I guess that it's an assumption. Just look at the turian fleet and the human fleet. The numbers show that the Hierarchy has a strong war industry with several spaceships, whereas the Alliance is still building it's small army.

[Dave of Canada]

Phaedon wrote...

The numbers show that the Hierarchy has a strong war industry with several spaceships, whereas the Alliance is still building it's small army.

Apparently it isn't strong enough to oust the Alliance, however. With the Alliance essentially ruling with an ironfist if you didn't save you-know-who (avoiding spoilers).

[Inverness Moon]

Who contributed more to the construction of the stealth frigate is irrelevant. My point was that Cerberus came up with the idea of a join ship building project and pushed the Alliance to move towards it. If they had not been around, there might not have been a stealth frigate for Shepard when it came time to deal with Saren. Hell, maybe Sovereign would have blown a non-stealth ship out of the sky as soon as it approach and Shepard may never have gotten to the beacon. I don't know, but I'll say that things wouldn't be going as well as they are now without Cerberus.

[-Skorpious-]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Who contributed more to the construction of the stealth frigate is irrelevant. My point was that Cerberus came up with the idea of a join ship building project and pushed the Alliance to move towards it. If they had not been around, there might not have been a stealth frigate for Shepard when it came time to deal with Saren. Hell, maybe Sovereign would have blown a non-stealth ship out of the sky as soon as it approach and Shepard may never have gotten to the beacon. I don't know, but I'll say that things wouldn't be going as well as they are now without Cerberus.

My comment wasn't directed at you, but rather Zulu. Although I distrust and dislike Cerberus, I do give them credit where credit is due. I view Cerberus as a necessary evil above anything else.

[Phaedon]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Who contributed more to the construction of the stealth frigate is irrelevant. My point was that Cerberus came up with the idea of a join ship building project and pushed the Alliance to move towards it. If they had not been around, there might not have been a stealth frigate for Shepard when it came time to deal with Saren. Hell, maybe Sovereign would have blown a non-stealth ship out of the sky as soon as it approach and Shepard may never have gotten to the beacon. I don't know, but I'll say that things wouldn't be going as well as they are now without Cerberus.

Like Skorpious, I give them credit for that. But that doesn't affect me when deciding if they are 'good' or 'bad'. They are useful, that's a fact.

[Dave of Canada]

If Cerberus is wrong, I don't want to be right!

[Inverness Moon]

-Skorpious- wrote...

My comment wasn't directed at you, but rather Zulu. Although I distrust and dislike Cerberus, I do give them credit where credit is due. I view Cerberus as a necessary evil above anything else.

Phaedon wrote...

Like Skorpious, I give them credit for that. But that doesn't affect me when deciding if they are 'good' or 'bad'. They are useful, that's a fact.

I suppose it depends on your interpretation of good and bad in this case. I consider Cerberus good for the galaxy at the moment because of their significant contributions to the fight against the reapers.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Phaedon]

Good ? Well I guess, that they can be good as in useful.
But I was referring to their moral compass.

Modifié par Phaedon, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:21 .

[Inverness Moon]

Phaedon wrote...

Good ? Well I guess, that they can be good as in useful.
But I was referring to their moral compass.

Well that is certainly a different issue, considering how arbitrary morals are. On that, I'll just say that if certain morals prevent you from taking a course of action necessary for the survival of humanity, then those morals are harmful to the species as a whole.

[Dave of Canada]

Phaedon wrote...

Good ? Well I guess, that they can be good as in useful.
But I was referring to their moral compass.

Morals are personal. Somebody who is viewed as good is viewed as evil by somebody else, it always is and always will be (until we're assimilated and made into Borg / Reapers). For example, I view Cerberus as good as they are trying to save the entire galaxy while being persecuted by everybody. On the other hand, their methods of saving the galaxy might have people label them as "evil".

[Legbiter]

Yes. But mostly incompetent.

[Zulu_DFA]

Inverness Moon wrote...

if certain morals prevent you from taking a course of action necessary for the survival of humanity, then those morals are harmful to the species as a whole.

Harmful morals? How about immoral morals? Or simply immorals...

[Ahglock]

Phaedon wrote...


I was about to answer directly to Zulu, but you make a fair point. It's an 'educated guess', yes, so I guess that it's an assumption. Just look at the turian fleet and the human fleet. The numbers show that the Hierarchy has a strong war industry with several spaceships, whereas the Alliance is still building it's small army.

If the Turians were the primary creators of the ship then the most advanced ship in the galaxy ended up in a weird place.  It is an alliance ship that lets some non-humans on it.  Somehow IMO that puts the more educated guesses in the side that claims humanity created most of it, especially the more advanced parts.

I'd normally say overall Cerberus is evil.  On the other hand, humanity seems to be fairly heavily attacked so it might be a somewhat necessary evil.  Even Batarians pretend to have the moral high ground to humans, the racism against humans seems fairly out of control.

Modifié par Ahglock, 22 novembre 2010 - 12:09 .

[Landon Frost]

Ahglock wrote...

Phaedon wrote...


I was about to answer directly to Zulu, but you make a fair point. It's an 'educated guess', yes, so I guess that it's an assumption. Just look at the turian fleet and the human fleet. The numbers show that the Hierarchy has a strong war industry with several spaceships, whereas the Alliance is still building it's small army.

I believe it is stated in ME1 that Normandy was a joint project that incorporated Turian design into a human one.. which would indicate that it was a Human ship.  For sure it was a human project.  In ME2, EDI clearly states that Cerberus pushed the Alliance for the project.  (Probally because the Turian government would never have worked with Cerberus if approached).

There is a lot of Cerberus I think we don't know yet.  From the information slowly coming out, it seems most people find the morally bad.  However, some good points.. there would be no Normandy without Cerberus.  Also,  Udina was clearly pushing for Shepards consideration for the Spectre status.  It is possible Cerberus was pushing Udina in some way.  If that is the case, then the galaxy has been saved twice by Cerberus.  Once because of the Normandy and Shepard's Spectre status and once by the destruction of the Collectors.

They seem pretty important and very good to me 



If the Turians were the primary creators of the ship then the most advanced ship in the galaxy ended up in a weird place.  It is an alliance ship that lets some non-humans on it.  Somehow IMO that puts the more educated guesses in the side that claims humanity created most of it, especially the more advanced parts.

I'd normally say overall Cerberus is evil.  On the other hand, humanity seems to be fairly heavily attacked so it might be a somewhat necessary evil.  Even Batarians pretend to have the moral high ground to humans, the racism against humans seems fairly out of control.

[Phaedon]

Blasto the jelly wrote...

Thier intentions are noble, but the way they carry them out is ruthless. They step over anyone in thier path too achieve thier goals, and if Cerberus had the power and influence they would threat the Alien species like dirt, maybe a change in leadership is what they need?

Without TIM Cerberus would just be a group of racists and fanatics abducting aliens and torturing them. Also, are their intentions really noble ? As far as I see it, they 1)Want to stop the Reapers, 2)Want to ascent humanity be kicking everyone else down. Their first objective is noble, I guess, but the second ?

Dave of Canada wrote...
Morals are personal. Somebody who is viewed as good is viewed as evil by somebody else, it always is and always will be (until we're assimilated and made into Borg / Reapers). For example, I view Cerberus as good as they are trying to save the entire galaxy while being persecuted by everybody. On the other hand, their methods of saving the galaxy might have people label them as "evil".

Inverness Moon wrote...
Well that is certainly a different issue, considering how arbitrary morals are. On that, I'll just say that if certain morals prevent you from taking a course of action necessary for the survival of humanity, then those morals are harmful to the species as a whole.

I'll have to disagree with both of you. Morals are let's say a type of philosophy based on good and evil. Your opinion on them can differ a bit, but if it is completely different than the rest of society, then that's just dangerous for anyone around you. Or even worse, if you are unable to understand what's good and what's bad, well then, to put it bluntly, you are f****d. And yet, we are arguing over semantics.

We can argue over what moral is harmful or not for weeks, but we will be missing the point.

Was Pragia good ?
Was Overlord good ?
Was Akuze good ?
Was unleashing harmful radiation and killing colonists good ?
Was Ascension good ?
Was planting people with Reaper parts good ?
Was killing marines good ?
Was killing Kahoku good ?
Was attacking a fleet filled with millions of innocents good ?
Was the political assasination good ?

No.

The ends don't justify the means, it is the means that justify the ends.

Ahglock wrote...
If the Turians were the primary creators of the ship then the most advanced ship in the galaxy ended up in a weird place.  It is an alliance ship that lets some non-humans on it.  Somehow IMO that puts the more educated guesses in the side that claims humanity created most of it, especially the more advanced parts. 

Actually, joint research operations (and gifting ships) are a very diplomatic move and it's used even today.
Especially for the turians who are like 'Well, lol, sorry for the Relay 314 incident"

Modifié par Phaedon, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

The ends don't justify the means, it is the means that justify the ends.

Blasthemy! Everyone knows that social security spawns social parasites... at best. Or it is a sign of the pagan Communists' overtaking the world!!!

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Blasthemy! Everyone knows that social security spawns social parasites... at best. Or it is a sign of the pagan Communists' overtaking the world!!!

Informatively, this is Sparta.  

Modifié par Phaedon, 22 novembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Inverness Moon]

Phaedon wrote...

Blasto the jelly wrote...

Thier intentions are noble, but the way they carry them out is ruthless. They step over anyone in thier path too achieve thier goals, and if Cerberus had the power and influence they would threat the Alien species like dirt, maybe a change in leadership is what they need?

Without TIM Cerberus would just be a group of racists and fanatics abducting aliens and torturing them. Also, are their intentions really noble ? As far as I see it, they 1)Want to stop the Reapers, 2)Want to ascent humanity be kicking everyone else down. Their first objective is noble, I guess, but the second ?

That isn't even their second objective. TIM's primary objective is to protect the future of humanity, to do this he believes humans need to become the dominant force in the galaxy. This does not mean humans need to conquer or rule it. This also need not come at the expense of anyone else. A perfect example is the collector base which could make humanity the most advanced species in the galaxy without even having to bother with other race. So long as that technology is used for self-defense I see no problem with it.

Many people think TIM wants himself or humans to rule the galaxy and oppress other species or whatever, but those courses of action do not line up with TIM's goals for obvious reasons.

Phaedon wrote...

I'll have to disagree with both of you. Morals are let's say a type of philosophy based on good and evil. Your opinion on them can differ a bit, but if it is completely different than the rest of society, then that's just dangerous for anyone around you. Or even worse, if you are unable to understand what's good and what's bad, well then, to put it bluntly, you are f****d. And yet, we are arguing over semantics.

We can argue over what moral is harmful or not for weeks, but we will be missing the point.

I don't see how this is related to what I said. But here is an excerpt: "In its "descriptive" sense, morality refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores that distinguish between right and wrong in the human society. Describing morality in this way is not making a claim about what is objectively right or wrong, but only referring to what is considered right or wrong by people. For the most part right and wrong acts are classified as such because they are thought to cause benefit or harm, but it is possible that many moral beliefs are based on prejudice, ignorance or even hatred. This sense of the term is addressed by descriptive ethics."

Phaedon wrote...

Was Pragia good ?
Was Overlord good ?
Was Akuze good ?
Was unleashing harmful radiation and killing colonists good ?
Was Ascension good ?
Was planting people with Reaper parts good ?
Was killing marines good ?
Was killing Kahoku good ?
Was attacking a fleet filled with millions of innocents good ?
Was the political assasination good ?

No.

The ends don't justify the means, it is the means that justify the ends.

The ends certainly do justify the means in this case. The end is the prevention of galactic genocide.

I can't rate the success of Pragia since we don't know what Cerberus got out of it beyond Jack and how that data is being used.

Overlord certainly had good intentions. We already saw the damage the heretic geth did to the Citadel, what could be next?

Implanting Grayson with reaper technology was completely justified as far as I'm concerned considering we have yet to figure out a way to fight or even defeat the reapers.

Cerberus also did not "attack a fleet filled with millions of innocents," they attacked a single ship in a surgical operation. Exaggeration does not make you any more credible. If Cerberus wanted to kill a bunch of quarians they would have used their opportunity to attack one of the liveships with a nuke or something.

As for the rest of that stuff, you can hardly ask whether or not those actions were worth it without all the facts.

[Ahglock]

Phaedon wrote...


Actually, joint research operations (and gifting ships) are a very diplomatic move and it's used even today.
Especially for the turians who are like 'Well, lol, sorry for the Relay 314 incident"

You generally don't gift the most advanced something in the universe as part of diplomacy.  If the turians were in a point of uncondisional surrender sure, but when they are amoung the top dogs who quite frankly don't even really like the humans I don't see them giving their best tech and the best ship out there.  Joint research sure, but not their best stuff and the research would end up in their hands if they were the primary contributors.  The humans would have gained technical knowledge without the actual end device if they were providing less.  Stil valuable and worth while, but not getting more than the other party. 

[MrFob]

Inverness Moon wrote...

*snipped for length*

As for the rest of that stuff, you can hardly ask whether or not those actions were worth it without all the facts.

As for all of it, that is exactly the problem. Maybe these action would be justified if they were taken in desperation. With some crisis at hand that leaves noone a choice (I'd rather avoid it but who knows).

The problem with cerberus is, it commits to disgusting acts of violence and unethical practices without being forced to do so. Pragia was apprx 15-20 years ago. There was no big threat to humanity then. Same goes for Akuze. When Cerberus infected colonists, bread Rachni and killed Kahoku in ME1, the illusive man was not aware of the reaper threat (TIM doesn't know what exactly happened at the citadel at the beginning of Ascension which is after the end of ME1). The actions against the quarians and the violation of Gillian is not some desperate attempt to save humanity. In the book, TIM quite clearly commits to this operation for one reason alone: the accumulation for power.
Even if you would postulate that he sees the other galactic races as a threat to humanity, there is a political system and diplomatic relations in place by the time he does all of that. That is like a nation on earth today performing horrible experiments, political assassinations and acts of terror and violence because they want to gain an advantage over everybody else. If that is not wrong, then I am glad you are not a world leader (well, I hope you are not (joking here, not insulting) ).
Also, if you read the passages of Retribution that are written from TIMs point of view, the priorities of the man become quite clear and it is certainly not the good of all (not even all of humanity).

So yeah, to sum up, the argument "the ends justify the means" is not valid because there are no "honorable" or even reasonable ends to cerberus actions. It is simply an institution that is omitted to the power of one species, possibly even one man and is willing to violently trample down any and all resistance to achieve that goal. I oppose such an attitude.

[Rekkampum]

Not entirely. I see much of Cerberus as tarnished by their morally apathetic policies, but "evil", certainly not. Extremist and often destructive? Yes. But not "evil" in the traditional sense.

[Landon Frost]

Ahglock wrote...

Phaedon wrote...


Actually, joint research operations (and gifting ships) are a very diplomatic move and it's used even today.
Especially for the turians who are like 'Well, lol, sorry for the Relay 314 incident"

You generally don't gift the most advanced something in the universe as part of diplomacy.  If the turians were in a point of uncondisional surrender sure, but when they are amoung the top dogs who quite frankly don't even really like the humans I don't see them giving their best tech and the best ship out there.  Joint research sure, but not their best stuff and the research would end up in their hands if they were the primary contributors.  The humans would have gained technical knowledge without the actual end device if they were providing less.  Stil valuable and worth while, but not getting more than the other party. 

The Turians worked with the Alliance as part of a joint effort.  I believe the Council agreed to aiding with the Normandy construction, which meant the Turians (as the primary council military) were told to cooperate.

[Ahglock]

Landon Frost wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Phaedon wrote...


Actually, joint research operations (and gifting ships) are a very diplomatic move and it's used even today.
Especially for the turians who are like 'Well, lol, sorry for the Relay 314 incident"

You generally don't gift the most advanced something in the universe as part of diplomacy.  If the turians were in a point of uncondisional surrender sure, but when they are amoung the top dogs who quite frankly don't even really like the humans I don't see them giving their best tech and the best ship out there.  Joint research sure, but not their best stuff and the research would end up in their hands if they were the primary contributors.  The humans would have gained technical knowledge without the actual end device if they were providing less.  Stil valuable and worth while, but not getting more than the other party. 

The Turians worked with the Alliance as part of a joint effort.  I believe the Council agreed to aiding with the Normandy construction, which meant the Turians (as the primary council military) were told to cooperate.

It still does not track that they would build and gift to the allaince the most advanced ship in the universe.  It makes more sense that they contibuted but much if not all the most advanced parts came from the people who kept it.  The turians don't like huimans they think they are trying to take too big of place in the galaxy and then you give them the most advanced ship in the galaxy helping them take a bigger place?  Possible, sure.  But I think it is more likely that humans who have access to science but who are not constrianed by hundreads of years of preconceived notions of what is possible thinks outside the box and creates the snazzy parts like the drive and cloaking.