187 réponses à ce sujet

[Blastback]

I'm not a fan of the whole "this leaked footage is not representive of the experiance we want you to see" but not giving us an alternative.  It doesn't worry me so much, as I generally am faithful that I will enjoy the game, but it would be nice to see Bioware throw a bone to some of the folks who are on the fence.

Modifié par Blastback, 18 novembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[Sir JK]

Cosgamer: It was that particular "in order" part I was trying to get at. Your list implies it have to be done in order but that is not true. Once past the planning and story-boarding there's very little that needs to be done in order (obviously some things need to be done before others. But a lot of things can be done parallely). Even things like testing and polishing can be done parallel with the other things, admittedly a bit later but still parallel.

14-15 months is not a lot, no. Though it seems to hinted at being closer to 24-25 months given the mentions that they started to plan it in Feb 09. The important question is wether it's enough or not though. It might very well be. It might not.
I'm fairly sure Bioware has enough experience to pick the deadline they need. Any time in excess of that would just be pointless.

Modifié par Sir JK, 18 novembre 2010 - 04:49 .

[In Exile]

The real question is man hours. A 10 man dev team working 15 months is not a 40 man dev team working 15 months.

[upsettingshorts]

In Exile wrote...

The real question is man hours. A 10 man dev team working 15 months is not a 40 man dev team working 15 months.

I think we're the only people making this argument on the forums.  I might have missed some other folks though who try not to assume "1 month of development time" is some kind of universal constant. Or maybe they simply got lost in all the noise...

[addiction21]

Or they just lurk around and wait for an opportunity to mention waffles.

[Blastback]

addiction21 wrote...

Or they just lurk around and wait for an opportunity to mention waffles.

I like the blueberry ones.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Revan312 wrote...

cosgamer wrote...
*snip*

This ^

I don't think people realize just how little time is left in the dev cycle.. like absolutely none in the scope of things.. two and a half months basically till gold and that is, like I said, generally reserved for bug testing..

So if we assume as we should that it's essentially complete, videos of current build gameplay will be what we'd be getting in the end product, if it's not, then they have some serious issues in the coming months..

Basically DA2 is done and if not then expect delays or a crap finished product. Since Bioware as yet hasn't released a completely bug ridden mess of a game, I'm expecting either a push back or some vids showing official gameplay in the coming weeks.  Or it is like the conspiricists say and Bioware is just hiding their terrible game from us hoping we'll buy it before knowing the truth, but I doubt that one..

Upsettingshorts wrote...

We don't know how many people
Bioware has working on DA:2, therefore we can't judge how many man-hours
are being applied to its development, throw that in with the fact we
can't even be sure when they started working on it and that means
Upsettingshorts sees such arguments as totally pointless.

If your implying that they might have started on DA2 before the original even came out than I don't know what to say. I highly doubt Bioware would ever be stupid enough to start on a sequal before the first game's sales came in, that's just asking for high levels of disaster..

Agreed 100% Revan. Whats funny to me Rev, is its apparent theres quite a few people that have ZERO clue when it comes to a typical dev process to begin with but they'll throw around time frames and procedures like they're pros.

At this point theres no doubt they're in crunch/tail end of polishing/QA trying to fix as many bugs before ship. The idea that they have "nothing to show" on the PC side at this point is just laughable. The game is more than likely done content wise and should be in lock down for features by now, though to be honest I would welcome a delay to actually make the PC version good. Granted considering its EA calling the shots now the chance of that is slim to none.

[Revan312]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In Exile wrote...

The real question is man hours. A 10 man dev team working 15 months is not a 40 man dev team working 15 months.

I think we're the only people making this argument on the forums.  I might have missed some other folks though who try not to assume "1 month of development time" is some kind of universal constant. Or maybe they simply got lost in all the noise...

No, it's simply that we assume (I know I know, it's a bad habit) that the dev team creating DA2 probobly isn't any larger than the one that worked on DA:O.. Bioware has this, ME3, SW: TOR along with DA Legends and a potential unannounced game as yet to be revealed.. I just don't see them hiring 1k or more people in the time between DA:O and DA2 to work on this game.

DA:O took years to complete, DA2 is taking just slightly longer than one, that's an extremely limited amount of time for a game of this scope.  I'm willing to wait and judge it when it comes out, that's not the problem, the problem is their marketing which is sooo quite at the moment for unknown reasons when the game has to be pretty much complete and is in Q/A and bug testing.  No in depth previews, videos or dev interviews is very strange for a AAA game so close to release, at least in my experience.

[Morroian]

Revan312 wrote...

No, it's simply that we assume (I know I know, it's a bad habit) that the dev team creating DA2 probobly isn't any larger than the one that worked on DA:O.. Bioware has this, ME3, SW: TOR along with DA Legends and a potential unannounced game as yet to be revealed.. I just don't see them hiring 1k or more people in the time between DA:O and DA2 to work on this game.

If they have the budget why not? Say the game has a development budget of $1M, it doesn't matter if they hire 50 people to finish the game in 2 years or 100 people to do it in 4 years, the budget for that game is still the same.

[Apollo Starflare]

In regards to an apparent lack of previews, well, i've noticed quite a few myself - it just happens that most of them have been of the same two demos and focused on the 360 version. Not saying that, that is okay but DA2's name has certainly been put out there. As far as anything else goes, with over three months until release there is plenty of time for them to push a button in marketing and get a whole bunch of new stuff out there, be it gameplay footage or character bios. I'm not worried at all about not knowing enough about the game to choose whether to purchase it on release, and I would be surprised if Bioware didn't recognise the need to get some PC gameplay out before the signature edition deadline hits.



Plus I've heard the devs mention several times how the demo's previewed so far are behind the current version of the game so it doesn't seem like a leap of faith to presume that when footage does arrive it will be of an improved/more polished version.

[Revan312]

cosgamer wrote...
I've been a software engineer for 15 years, and have worked on projects like the State of Wyoming's Tax & Mineral Project,.

Off topic but, Wyoming guy here.. So you worked on the Tax and Mineral project, bet that was nightmare knowing our mineral industry here.  Just curious but was that a UW centered project, I think I remember hearing about it but that was around 2000, again, just curious

aaannnddd resume debate!

*edit* god I'm terrible about remembering to PM.. so I'll say this about the man power discussion.  There is such a thing as to many cooks in the kitchen, if you have 350 programmers/art designers/modelers/writers etc theres a very good chance you'll run into the problem of creating a lack of cohesiveness within the dev cycle. If everyone is working on the whole project, as a single entity, working through it bit by bit, that ends up being too many people and not enough jobs.  If everyone is seperated into groups and working on individual segments then you run the risk of everything feeling like it just doesn't gel together.

There's an area between not enough workers and too many that is the optimal ideal, shoving 30 guys on modeling Hawkes armor most likely will cause delays rather than promoting faster production.

Modifié par Revan312, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:07 .

[addiction21]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Agreed 100% Revan. Whats funny to me Rev, is its apparent theres quite a few people that have ZERO clue when it comes to a typical dev process to begin with but they'll throw around time frames and procedures like they're pros.

At this point theres no doubt they're in crunch/tail end of polishing/QA trying to fix as many bugs before ship. The idea that they have "nothing to show" on the PC side at this point is just laughable. The game is more than likely done content wise and should be in lock down for features by now, though to be honest I would welcome a delay to actually make the PC version good. Granted considering its EA calling the shots now the chance of that is slim to none.

But you are an expert on the game development process and are going to show us the evidence to support your claims right?

[AlanC9]

Revan312 wrote...
*edit* god I'm terrible about remembering to PM.. so I'll say this about the man power discussion.  There is such a thing as to many cooks in the kitchen, if you have 350 programmers/art designers/modelers/writers etc theres a very good chance you'll run into the problem of creating a lack of cohesiveness within the dev cycle. If everyone is working on the whole project, as a single entity, working through it bit by bit, that ends up being too many people and not enough jobs.  If everyone is seperated into groups and working on individual segments then you run the risk of everything feeling like it just doesn't gel together.

There's an area between not enough workers and too many that is the optimal ideal, shoving 30 guys on modeling Hawkes armor most likely will cause delays rather than promoting faster production.

Ah, yes... the "mythical man-month," right?

As long as we're talking Fred Brooks, I wonder if Bio's games can be said to have reached the irreducible errors level of complexity yet?

[Revan312]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ah, yes... the "mythical man-month," right?

As long as we're talking Fred Brooks, I wonder if Bio's games can be said to have reached the irreducible errors level of complexity yet?

Whether your being facetious or not, I'll answer as if you weren't

I think all games in today's world of complexity have hit the irreducible errors level.. I haven't played a game in the past 5 years that didn't have bugs/glitches of some variety.  All of Bioware's have had their fair share.  But the question is whether or not they can iron out the big bugs before release, not the problems that are inherent with game design of this nature..

I'm hoping they can and do, I simply think that it's a valid concern with a development process this short that they're going to blow through Q/A and bug phase in favor of reaching the deadline.  Not saying that will be the case, but it's still a worry for such a short cycle..

[Boombox]

stickmanhenry wrote...

I'm pretty sure one of the devs said in the podcast that they would have a gameplay video out before January 11 or something, because that is the cut off for the pre-order/signature edition upgrade, and its not really fair making people pre-order with nothing much to go on.

Ha.. And I thought that was the point.

[Tiax Rules All]

Boombox wrote...

stickmanhenry wrote...

I'm pretty sure one of the devs said in the podcast that they would have a gameplay video out before January 11 or something, because that is the cut off for the pre-order/signature edition upgrade, and its not really fair making people pre-order with nothing much to go on.

Ha.. And I thought that was the point.

Exactly....

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

addiction21 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Agreed 100% Revan. Whats funny to me Rev, is its apparent theres quite a few people that have ZERO clue when it comes to a typical dev process to begin with but they'll throw around time frames and procedures like they're pros.

At this point theres no doubt they're in crunch/tail end of polishing/QA trying to fix as many bugs before ship. The idea that they have "nothing to show" on the PC side at this point is just laughable. The game is more than likely done content wise and should be in lock down for features by now, though to be honest I would welcome a delay to actually make the PC version good. Granted considering its EA calling the shots now the chance of that is slim to none.

But you are an expert on the game development process and are going to show us the evidence to support your claims right?

You don't need to be an expert if you follow the business side of the industry and actively research the general process of game production/ have had past experience with it.  

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

cosgamer wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

cosgamer wrote...
*snip*

This ^

I don't think people realize just how little time is left in the dev cycle.. like absolutely none in the scope of things.. two and a half months basically till gold and that is, like I said, generally reserved for bug testing..

So if we assume as we should that it's essentially complete, videos of current build gameplay will be what we'd be getting in the end product, if it's not, then they have some serious issues in the coming months..

Basically DA2 is done and if not then expect delays or a crap finished product. Since Bioware as yet hasn't released a completely bug ridden mess of a game, I'm expecting either a push back or some vids showing official gameplay in the coming weeks.  Or it is like the conspiricists say and Bioware is just hiding their terrible game from us hoping we'll buy it before knowing the truth, but I doubt that one..

Upsettingshorts wrote...

We don't know how many people
Bioware has working on DA:2, therefore we can't judge how many man-hours
are being applied to its development, throw that in with the fact we
can't even be sure when they started working on it and that means
Upsettingshorts sees such arguments as totally pointless.

If your implying that they might have started on DA2 before the original even came out than I don't know what to say. I highly doubt Bioware would ever be stupid enough to start on a sequal before the first game's sales came in, that's just asking for high levels of disaster..

Agreed 100% Revan. Whats funny to me Rev, is its apparent theres quite a few people that have ZERO clue when it comes to a typical dev process to begin with but they'll throw around time frames and procedures like they're pros.

At this point theres no doubt they're in crunch/tail end of polishing/QA trying to fix as many bugs before ship. The idea that they have "nothing to show" on the PC side at this point is just laughable. The game is more than likely done content wise and should be in lock down for features by now, though to be honest I would welcome a delay to actually make the PC version good. Granted considering its EA calling the shots now the chance of that is slim to none.

I take offense if you're putting me in the same pen as those who have zero clue.  I've been a software engineer for 15 years, and have worked on projects like the State of Wyoming's Tax & Mineral Project, Washington's Payroll & Benefits along with AZ Dept of Revenue taxation and AZ Dept of Trans PEP (partner evaluation program responsible for tracking every road project in the state) and many, many other enterprise level apps.  My responsibilities have ranged from grunt to project lead.  Granted, I have not worked on a game but I do know the steps, procedures, life-cycles and other factors that go into an application.

Whether the game is done content wise (should be), whether they're in lock-down for features (should be), etc. the time allotted was/is not great and not even EA has unlimited resources it can throw at any single product. 

Again, I'm not saying they will fail in delivering a quality product for all platforms; I'm just saying to be cautious when you do buy DA 2 and to perhaps temper your expectations.

It wasn't directed at you at all. More so those with the "they just need to throw money at it" mantra.

[Bruddajakka]

At this point I'm getting pretty worried. It was announced in July, and so far all we've seen is leaked footage, and two cinematic style trailers. The leak of actual footage is troubling.

[upsettingshorts]

I'll be worried if I haven't seen anything by January 10.



/still haven't pre-ordered

[Blastback]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'll be worried if I haven't seen anything by January 10.

/still haven't pre-ordered

That's where I'm at.

[Monica83]

Im not worryed i have already an idea of what dragon age 2 will be..Since we already seen some unofficial game video of gameplay the system is the same.. the anims are the same.. the dialog system are the same of mass effect..Maybe anims are slowed down but they are still horrible to see... Then static classes... Static companions interaction..(if you consider you are not allowed to open theyr inventary)... Simple this is a little sequel with much cut down features.. Of a great game like origins...We have not much to see... we already see all,, We already know how will be the game.. By video by devs declaration.... For me this title it's just not dragon age... And its not an rpg.. Its moore like a beat em up with a story and some streamlized rpg elements..