122 réponses à ce sujet

[wookieeassassin]

Mordin says in his loyalty mission that it affects fertility when Paragon Shepard accuses him of killing millions. That would mean only 1 in 1000 pregnancies are viable. The codex entry (I think it is in ME1, I don't remember seeing it in ME2) says it affects offspring viability, which would mean the Krogan would die at some point before they are birthed, which would result in a lot of stillbirths. Mordin did modify the genophage so did he make it fertility based or is this a change Bioware has made hoping no one would notice?

If it causes stillbirths the decision about whether to cure or leave it is a lot less of a gray decision IMO. Krogan race is still allowed to survive, it just can't violently expand. If they are causing stillbirths though, well, that make it a bit more of a conundrum. I don't think the genophage is making the Krogan die out, it is designed precisely to keep the population at sustainable levels. Any Krogan race extinction is a side effect of them killing each other.

So, what is the official word on the genophage? Did the original affect offspring viability and Mordin's team changed it? Or is there some sort of contracition between ME1 and ME2?

If it caused stillbirths I personally think the decision would be to attempt to make it fertility based and it that were not possible to cure it. However, along with a cure, there needed to be an updated version that could be used if the Krogan started attacking the entire galaxy again (if it were possible to make one that would do basically the same thing and wasn't affected by the cure).

[hooahguy]

I think it just causes miscarriages, the Krogan females can still make babies.
http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Genophage

"The genophage's modus operandi is not to reduce the fertility of krogan females, but rather the probability of viable pregnancies: many krogan die in stillbirth, with most foetuses never even reaching this stage of development. "

Modifié par hooahguy, 17 novembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Chuvvy]

There's just lots and lots of stillbirths.

[GracefulChicken]

Yup. It doesnt kill them (ie, they arent alive, born, then die), it causes females to miscarrage (they're developed, or partially developed, "die" (based on your definition of living, I guess), then stillborn).

[Count Viceroy]

Thus not a sterility plauge. Semantics to some maybe, but per definition, it isn't.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 17 novembre 2010 - 07:52 .

[Epic777]

wookieeassassin wrote...

Mordin says in his loyalty mission that it affects fertility when Paragon Shepard accuses him of killing millions. That would mean only 1 in 1000 pregnancies are viable. The codex entry (I think it is in ME1, I don't remember seeing it in ME2) says it affects offspring viability, which would mean the Krogan would die at some point before they are birthed, which would result in a lot of stillbirths. Mordin did modify the genophage so did he make it fertility based or is this a change Bioware has made hoping no one would notice?

If it causes stillbirths the decision about whether to cure or leave it is a lot less of a gray decision IMO. Krogan race is still allowed to survive, it just can't violently expand. If they are causing stillbirths though, well, that make it a bit more of a conundrum. I don't think the genophage is making the Krogan die out, it is designed precisely to keep the population at sustainable levels. Any Krogan race extinction is a side effect of them killing each other.

So, what is the official word on the genophage? Did the original affect offspring viability and Mordin's team changed it? Or is there some sort of contracition between ME1 and ME2?

If it caused stillbirths I personally think the decision would be to attempt to make it fertility based and it that were not possible to cure it. However, along with a cure, there needed to be an updated version that could be used if the Krogan started attacking the entire galaxy again (if it were possible to make one that would do basically the same thing and wasn't affected by the cure).

Wrex mentions stillbirths in me1, there is no contradiction between me1 and me2. Mordin mentioned the original genophage was designed to lower fertility rates not as a punishment. The reason for the 2nd genophage was the krogan were adapting at a faster rate to the genophage.

[wookieeassassin]

Mordin says it is fertility related so there technically aren't deaths from it. Stillbirths would mean it isn't fertility based. As I understand it fertility based would mean there aren't any stillbirths, that pregnancies simply don't happen as often. Offspring viability would mean stillbirths. Either I'm not understanding what Mordin is saying or he is contradicting what is said about it in ME1 by saying it is fertility based. The codex in ME1 says explicitly that it isn't fertility based, it is based on offspring viability. The only way to make sense of it is to have Mordin's modifications cause it to be fertility based.

And stillbirths are deaths since the fetus is pretty well formed.

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 17 novembre 2010 - 08:21 .

[wookieeassassin]

Does the game say anything about whether the Krogan birth life young or not? They seem Reptilian, not Mammalian to me. In fact, since none of the other species evolved on Earth their birthing methods shouldn't resemble mammalian or reptilian ones, should they?

[Epic777]

wookieeassassin wrote...

Does the game say anything about whether the Krogan birth life young or not? They seem Reptilian, not Mammalian to me. In fact, since none of the other species evolved on Earth their birthing methods shouldn't resemble mammalian or reptilian ones, should they?

No one knows for sure, the fact is eggs were never mentioned and I am not sure how you have a still-born egg

[Count Viceroy]

They have reptilian influences for sure, but I honestly can't see the krogans laying eggs. Not after what we've been told regarding deaths and stillbirths.

[wookieeassassin]

It sounds like they give birth to live young. However, Mordin says it affects fertility, the codex says the first one did not and was offspring viability based. Only way to make since of it is for Mordin's team to have modified it to be fertility. Well, that or Mordin doesn't know what fertility means which I doubt. Mordin seems like he would know that stillbirths count as deaths too. He is a scientist.

[Count Viceroy]

The thing is though, the codex is written 'in character' and thus, It has flaws and missconceptions. For example the codex still maintains that the protheans built the relays and the citadel.

I'd take mordins word over the codex any day.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[008Zulu]

Affecting fertility would suggest the majority of Krogan are sterile, however in the game a Krogan does refer to a mountain of stillborn which would indicate that the Genophage actually causes the unborn to develop a fatal flaw.

[AlexMBrennan]

Since we're debating the exact meaning of the words here I think a OED definition is in order:

fertile: able to conceive young or produce seed

As such, the genophage affects the fertility (i.e. the ability to conceive young); I think the thing you're wondering is whether this is due to zygotes (probably applies to mammals only - ask a medical professional for a professional medical opinion) not being formed at all or due to the embryo/fetus/whatever dying before birth.

Edit: Personally I don't think this really matters as long as they die early (before their nervous system is properly developed), Since this is not specified in canon I can choose to assume that this is the case.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[Count Viceroy]

Quite possible we're looking way more into this than bioware intended when they wrote it.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:58 .

[Nerevar-as]

From game dialogue, conception happens normally, but only 1/1000 pregnancies come to term. Also, it seems that depends on particular females, not at random, so it makes some sense with time resistance developed.

Mordin´s comment he didn´t kill anyone with science seemed to me he didn´t considered fetuses living beings yet. Don´t want to go into an abortion debate, but what he´s done is cause mass forced abortions. From the krogans POV, it´s likely murder to them.

And Grunt was there in my game and said nothing at all...

[Elite Midget]

In short...



Yes, the Genophage kills babies in the Womb and Krogan Mothers end up with a mountain of neverending Stillborns. Only a select few Krogan Females can produce live young. Which is why the Bloodpack was having no shortage of Volunteers for their experiments.



I like to call it...



The Baby Killing Virus...



Though I'm sure that the Salarians wouldn't approve. /rolls eyes

[wookieeassassin]

Why does Mordin say it affects fertility then? Even if saying it affected fertility would mean that pregnancies wouldn't come to term (stillbirths) the codex explicitly says it does not affect fertility, but offspring viability. According to the codex's definition of fertility, offspring viability means stillborns while fertility does not. That is why I still don't understand why Mordin says it affects fertility unless he and his team changed it, making the codex entry outdated.

[Elite Midget]

It's more 'humane' to say it effects Fertility than the truth, that it causes stillborns by killing babies in the womb, despite the facts to the contrary. Mordin most likely doesn't understand the difference. After all, he was very naive to the effects the Genophage had on the Krogan people and was shocked when he saw what his work was actually doing.

[Manic Sheep]

I may be just remembering this wrong but didn’t Mordin say it stops the development of the nervous system or something along those lines? It doesn’t prevent pregnancies it just stops the foetus from fully developing.There seems to be some conflict with what we are told concerning the genophage but all the talk of still borns makes me think it stops viable offspring rather than adjusting fertility rates.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:13 .

[NitrAce]

It causes still births so I'd assume it doesn't affect fertility. 

Modifié par NitrAce, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:57 .

[wookieeassassin]

Wrex says it causes stillbirths, and Mordin says it affects fertility. Either we have to assume Mordin changed it, he's an idiot, or he's lying. When a main character is telling you something that important in the game thought they are generally assumed to be telling you what is actually the case. That is the way it seems anyway.

If what manic sheep is saying is correct, and it stops the fetus from fully forming then Wrex is wrong, or Mordin's team modified it. Mordin has to know about its effects because he goes back to Tuchanka regularly to ensure he doesn't become distanced from his difficult decision.

I think manic sheep is also correct that we are getting somewhat contradictory information about the genophage. If it doesn't allow Krogan to fully form (in human terms I guess this would be the first trimester?) or just doesn't make pregnancies happen as often the moral problem with it isn't nearly as bad. If it results in mostly stillbirths then its a very difficult decision on whether to cure it or not. Like I said, if it were possible, they could cure it but have another version unaffected by the cure. That way they could cure the genophage but if the Krogan started violently expanding again so they could use the new one. Of course, if you made a cure I don't know if the same thing could be accomplished again.

To really make a utilitarian decision about the genophage we'd need to know how many beings died in the Krogan Rebellions versus how many have died from the genophage. I'm pretty sure it says the Krogan rebellions lasted for decades.

I will say though, that most Krogan seem intent on fighting, ALL THE TIME. Wrex says in ME1 that given a choice of trying to cure the genophage or fighting for credits that most all Krogan choose fighting. So at least **part** of their problem is their hostility and unwillingness to advance their society forward, which is what Wrex AND Mordin know is true. If the Krogan weren't a sapient species the decision would be much easier. If the genophage were thresher maws I don't think anyone would think more than like 15 seconds about it.

Modifié par wookieeassassin, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:18 .

[General User]

Mordin was having an ongoing crisis of conscience regarding his work on the genophage.

When he said it affected fertility rates vice terminating otherwise viable pregnancies, he may have been trying to convince himself far more than he was trying to convince Shepard.

When Wrex spoke of "piles of dead krogan children", or something to that effect, in ME1, I can't really see how that could mean anything other than the genophage causes stillbirths.

Modifié par General User, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:18 .

[wookieeassassin]

While character motivations should play a part in what people say, I think its almost too much to ask to ask a player to interpret what Mordin said about fertility rates as him convincing Shepard otherwise. Sometimes characters need to say what is the absolute truth, or we either need to have some hint they're uninformed or twisting the truth. Its hard enough to figure out what is the real truth in real life and then have to do it to understand something in a game.



Since Mordin is the only source we hear about the new genophage from and nowhere else we don't really know what is the truth due to his bias. He could've modified it to be fertility based, OR it still causes stillbirths like the original genophage but he doesn't understand the difference (which is hard to believe, he's a genius, he should know the difference between offspring viability and fertility), OR he is manipulating words to convince Shepard and ease his conscience. A way to have cleared this up would have had Shepard countering his fertility argument with saying that everything he has heard about it says it affects offspring viability and that Wrex told him it caused tons of stillbirths. Then Mordin could say that he modified it, or he would've said something alone the lines of "well, that depends on your definition of deaths. If they haven't been born yet does that mean they are dead? Or are they dead once they are at a certain development in the womb (I guess Krogan's have wombs..)."



As it is now there is no real way of knowing unless we are given a new codex entry or something official says what the modified version did. And since Mordin worked on it himself he is probably the best source of information on it. Regardless, I asked him a few paragon questions and then eventually agreed with him. I did have him save the research for later just in case though.

[Sursion]

Krogan are reptiles, so Krogan females probably lay eggs. With the genophage, only 1 in 1000 of those eggs will hatch.