122 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

The new Genophage was in effect before Mass Effect 1. >_> Thus what Wrex and countless Krogan say about countless dead babies still holds true. The fact that the Krogan didn't notice that they were adapting to the first Genophage or that a modification was added tends to give them more credit. To them the Genophage hasen't changed and the Second Genophage wasen't meant to change the Genophage but keep it updated with the Krogan.



It's never outright said if Krogan lay eggs or not. We can't use Reptile Logic here.



Besides, remember the Duckbilled Platapus? Yeah, that really killed some age old theories there.

[wookieeassassin]

Still, Mordin says it affects fertility. We shouldn't have to decipher if he is redefining the word "fertility". The codex says it isn't fertility, but offspring viability. According to the codex then, the fertility would mean that there wouldn't be lots of stillbirths. Maybe Mordin is twisting definitions or doesn't actually understand the difference, but there is really no way of knowing. When a main character is telling you history, it is just assumed they are telling you the correct version. Were we supposed to think about Wrex's bias in ME1 and think that he didn't really mean stillbirths, but unsuccessful pregnancies? I know it isn't a perfect example, but yeah.



The platypus didn't kill any theories, the platypus is a mammal.

[Manic Sheep]

wookieeassassin wrote...



Still, Mordin says it affects fertility. We shouldn't have to decipher if he is redefining the word "fertility". The codex says it isn't fertility, but offspring viability. According to the codex then, the fertility would mean that there wouldn't be lots of stillbirths. Maybe Mordin is twisting definitions or doesn't actually understand the difference, but there is really no way of knowing. When a main character is telling you history, it is just assumed they are telling you the correct version. Were we supposed to think about Wrex's bias in ME1 and think that he didn't really mean stillbirths, but unsuccessful pregnancies? I know it isn't a perfect example, but yeah.

Wrex isn't the only one who goes on about still births tho and there really is only one way of interpreting the term.

wookieeassassin wrote...

The platypus didn't kill any theories, the platypus is a mammal.

Yeah...the only known mammal that lays eggs.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:35 .

[Monochrome Wench]

I think the way it could work is the genophage screws up the Krogan genetic structure during gamete production just enough (making it a fertility issue) that while the female becomes pergnant and a feotus develops, the feotus is most likely never going to be viable and there will be a still birth.

Modifié par Monochrome Wench, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:00 .

[achwas]

I think, after taking a good look at Warlord Okeer's cloning lab, that while appearing reptilian Krogan would actually give birth to live offspring. Otherwise, looking at Okeer's lab, a two-step arrangement would be required, a hatchery for any eggs, followed by growing them in a tank... sounds implausible.
Plus, given the Krogan's habitual rivalry and high aggression rate, a result of their hazardous homeworld, vulnerable and stationary eggs would be a distinct evolutionary weakness.

Actually on my first playthrough of ME.-2 I was really looking forward to recruiting Okeer and hear some hard facts about the genophage from a trained Krogan. Alas.....

Modifié par achwas, 19 novembre 2010 - 03:39 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Genophage affects Krogan fertility rates, as follows:



1/1000 female Krogan is capable of producing living offspring.

999/1000 females can never give birth to living offspring.

[Count Viceroy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Genophage affects Krogan fertility rates, as follows:

1/1000 female Krogan is capable of producing living offspring.
999/1000 females can never give birth to living offspring.

Source? 

[Zulu_DFA]

ME & ME2.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 mars 2011 - 09:57 .

[Count Viceroy]

Your interpretation is not fact

[Zulu_DFA]

It's only possible interpretation of the fact that Mordin dubs a dead female Krogan "infertile" after only a quick scan and Maleon's saying the Krogans like to fight over "fertile" females.



Separation of the females and young ones of the clan from the males probably is a measure to keep secret which females are fertile, to prevent the fighting.

[Count Viceroy]

Fair enough. Making 99 % of females infertile is not something you can do by design though?

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Googlesaurus]

I'm not yet sure if Bioware has made a decision on that topic. There's conflicting vocabulary whenever people talk about the effects of the genophage.

[achwas]

Count Viceroy wrote...
Fair enough. Making 99 % of females infertile is not something you can do by design though?

Depends upon whether you can attach the fertility inducing viral attachments to a genetic marker of a certain rarity. Or vice versa, having it blocked by a certain marker...

As for "vocabulary" - I'd rather stick with Mordin than with Wrex on this, since for one he is a scientist as was directly involved in the project (while Wrex is a layman ) and is himself rather critical  and conscious of its effects, wishing there having been a better alternative. So I don't think there is a clasjh - just layman's terms versus statements from on of the guys who designed the second series genophage.

[Googlesaurus]

achwas wrote...

As for "vocabulary" - I'd rather stick with Mordin than with Wrex on this, since for one he is a scientist as was directly involved in the project (while Wrex is a layman ) and is himself rather critical  and conscious of its effects, wishing there having been a better alternative. So I don't think there is a clasjh - just layman's terms versus statements from on of the guys who designed the second series genophage.

I'm referring to Okeer's use of the word "clutch", which distinctly means a collection of eggs in a single place. 

[wookieeassassin]

I'd like to agree with Mordin, but the Codex is supposed to be pretty official on most matters. I know sometimes that you as the player know privileged information that the codex doesn't have, but on the genophage I expect it to be correct.



Like I've said:

The codex says it affects offspring viability, and explicitly says "not fertility". Thus, according to the codex, fertility based would not cause tons of stillbirths. However, Mordin says it affects fertility. Either he is defining fertility as "offspring viability" to twist words (something I wouldn't think a player would be expected to interpret) and make himself feel better, or Bioware has introduced inconsistencies between what are supposed to be considered two pretty official sources.



I'd really like it if Bioware cleared this up. If the genophage doesn't call stillbirths then it isn't nearly as much of a moral problem as causing 999 stillbirths for every baby Krogan.

[Manic Sheep]

Googlesaurus wrote...

achwas wrote...

As for "vocabulary" - I'd rather stick with Mordin than with Wrex on this, since for one he is a scientist as was directly involved in the project (while Wrex is a layman ) and is himself rather critical  and conscious of its effects, wishing there having been a better alternative. So I don't think there is a clasjh - just layman's terms versus statements from on of the guys who designed the second series genophage.

I'm referring to Okeer's use of the word "clutch", which distinctly means a collection of eggs in a single place. 

Huh.. Your right he does say the word clutch. I completely missed that. =____=

“let a thousand die in a clutch” 7:10 in this video for those who want proof

If Krogans lay eggs as it would seem from that statement then this makes allot more sense. So only every 1 in 1000 eggs end up being fertile and hatching. Infertile eggs could also be interpreted as still born.

It also explains how the krogan can have an absurdly high birthrate.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 20 novembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[Whatever42]

I'm still not convinced Krogan have live births. They're reptiles and don't breastfeed (Okeer's reference to collective human teats infers that).  And I didn't notice the word "clutch" either. That pretty much cinches it for me. We're simply talking about eggs.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 20 novembre 2010 - 12:57 .

[AdamNW]

It really depends on whether you are pro-life or pro-choice.

[Epic777]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I'm still not convinced Krogan have live births. They're reptiles and don't breastfeed (Okeer's reference to collective human teats infers that).  And I didn't notice the word "clutch" either. That pretty much cinches it for me. We're simply talking about eggs.

I cannot say if the krogan lay eggs or not but I would lean towards the latter, since we have no idea what a female krogan looks like any for or against be able to breastfeed is at this point is null. 
Also the krogan are 7 ft tall, weigh a ton in armor, talk and have multiple organs there are pretty far away from your typical earth reptile. Besides how can you have a stile born egg? The krogan never have referenced eggs directly. The only thing near to that is: Warlord Okeer states "let 1000 die in a clutch". 

On a side if krogan do or do not not lay egg, would it ever change anyones view on the genophage?

[Manic Sheep]

Epic777 wrote...

I cannot say if the krogan lay eggs or not but I would lean towards the latter, since we have no idea what a female krogan looks like any for or against be able to breastfeed is at this point is null. 

Also the krogan are 7 ft tall, weigh a ton in armor, talk and have multiple organs there are pretty far away from your typical earth reptile.

That is true, we shouldn't make assumptions abased in them looking reptilian but why dose the fact that we know nothing about their reproduction make you lean towards live births? It just means we don't know. I still think they probably lay eggs tho obviously I can't know for sure.

Epic777 wrote...

Besides how can you have a stile born egg?

Simple, an egg that never hatches could easily be interpreted as still born.

Epic777 wrote...

The krogan never have referenced eggs directly. The only thing near to that is: Warlord Okeer states "let 1000 die in a clutch".

They never directly reference live births either and a clutch dose specifically mean eggs.

Epic777 wrote...

On a side if krogan do or do not lay egg, would it ever change anyones view on the genophage?

Either way I'm still for the genophage. Tho I’m not going to pretend I'm for it to help the Krogan. It’s to protect everyone else at the Krogans expense. The only difference them laying eggs would make is that its slightly less horrific to think of thousands off eggs that never hatch ( would still suck and be stressful for the korgans tho) than thousands of malformed lifeless babies being born. An egg is less personal than a baby, at least to us because we have live births.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 20 novembre 2010 - 02:25 .

[Spectre_907]

The genophage alters fertility by preventing fetal development of nervous systems.

[Epic777]

Manic Sheep wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

I cannot say if the krogan lay eggs or not but I would lean towards the latter, since we have no idea what a female krogan looks like any for or against be able to breastfeed is at this point is null. 

Also the krogan are 7 ft tall, weigh a ton in armor, talk and have multiple organs there are pretty far away from your typical earth reptile.

That is true, we shouldn't make assumptions abased in them looking reptilian but why dose the fact that we know nothing about their reproduction make you lean towards live births? It just means we don't know. I still think they probably lay eggs tho obviously I can't know for sure.

Epic777 wrote...

Besides how can you have a stile born egg?

Simple, an egg that never hatches could easily be interpreted as still born.

Epic777 wrote...

The krogan never have referenced eggs directly. The only thing near to that is: Warlord Okeer states "let 1000 die in a clutch".

They never directly reference live births either and a clutch dose specifically mean eggs.

Epic777 wrote...

On a side if krogan do or do not lay egg, would it ever change anyones view on the genophage?

Either way I'm still for the genophage. Tho I’m not going to pretend I'm for it to help the Krogan. It’s to protect everyone else at the Krogans expense. The only difference them laying eggs would make is that its slightly less horrific to think of thousands off eggs that never hatch ( would still suck and be stressful for the korgans tho) than thousands of malformed lifeless babies being born. An egg is less personal than a baby, at least to us because we have live births.

Then why talk about "piles of children who have never lived" but anyway at this point I am retelling why I am leaning towards live births. I am guessing maybe me3 or some spin off will shed light on the matter but at the mean time all we (live birth vs eggs) have is speculation based on strange scifi biology.  

[Deltamon]

Dead baby jokes anyone?

Modifié par Deltamon, 20 novembre 2010 - 03:45 .

[Elite Midget]

No, it's too soon for that.

[Zulu_DFA]

Manic Sheep wrote...

If Krogans lay eggs as it would seem from that statement then this makes allot more sense. So only every 1 in 1000 eggs end up being fertile and hatching. Infertile eggs could also be interpreted as still born.

Eggs? Lol!

It also explains how the krogan can have an absurdly high birthrate.

The high Krogans' birthrate is explained by the fact that they live for millennia. 1 female can produce thousands of baby Krogans over life time. This is it.



The formula of the genophage is very simple: Take the average number of babies a female Krogan statistically produces, divide by two. The result is the number of Krogan females, which only one is left fertile in. 1 in 1000.