122 réponses à ce sujet

[AxelBat]

Thanks for pointing out the more recent threads, I read those through as well. 

A lot of people seem to be stuck on that krogens are said to be able to have thousands of kids in their life times, but we're forgetting that krogen's live for a very long time. Seeing as how the Krogens had to survive predators and each other they would probably have many children in genetic anticipation of those kids not growing to maturity. I imagine one female can have 2 to 4 kids a year.  I also seem to remember Wrex saying he's a thousand years old, and the asari talk about how Krogen live long lives, so even a birth a year is plunty of time to shove out near a thousand children if they mature quickly.

My base question is this:  Do they have still births, or are they infertile?  If they have 'liters' of children but only one in a thousand survives then they have still births, and heck that is possible, but that's not my real question here

I'm also very tired of hearing that krogens are reptiles.  More BIO101, reptiles are an earth species, they decended from a common ancestor sharing our DNA.  The series of events that caused reptiles to exsist is so random while being exact that is is almost infinitly impossible to percieve that another set of reptiles evolved on another planet.  They may look reptilion, but that does not mean they auto-lay eggs, or that they are limited by things reptiles are limited by.  I'm sure no one cares but me though XD

Hopefully Bioware gives us an anwear that makes sense of all this. 

Modifié par AxelBat, 09 février 2011 - 09:04 .

[AxelBat]

BobSmith101 wrote...

The intent was that it worked like the pill. The Krogan adapted and it worked more like a chemical abortion.

Clutch only applies to eggs. Krogan don't speak English so "stillborn" is a translation from the word in Krogan for "Egg that never hatched". Yep that fits.

This makes absolutly no sense.  Nowhere does it ever say that the intent was 'it works like the pill,' where did you come up with this?  Do you even know how the pill works?

Clutch does not 'only apply to eggs.'  Of course the Krogen probably don't speak english, but the game is in english for our translation and understanding.  Clutch can mean a group of individuals, or it can mean the clutch that the genophage has on them.  Why is the one and only conclusion 'oh, it must be eggs?'

[Zulu_DFA]

AxelBat wrote...

My base question is this:  Do they have still births, or are they infertile?

Both. They have still births and that's called "infertile". The term is applicable, meaning "can't give successful birth".

The term "sterile", "sterilized" is also used, but is a mistake. But there again, not everyone in the ME universe is a scientist, so it may be an in-universe misconception. Unless Mordin uses it too (which I can't remember him doing positively), and then it's a BioWare's mistake (mike misusing the term "intergalactic" in the Codex).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 février 2011 - 08:55 .

[AkiKishi]

AxelBat wrote...
This makes absolutly no sense.  Nowhere does it ever say that the intent was 'it works like the pill,' where did you come up with this?  Do you even know how the pill works?

Clutch does not 'only apply to eggs.'  Of course the Krogen probably don't speak english, but the game is in english for our translation and understanding.  Clutch can mean a group of individuals, or it can mean the clutch that the genophage has on them.  Why is the one and only conclusion 'oh, it must be eggs?'

The pill prevents pregnancy - the morning after pill is a chemical abortion.
I'm not going into detail, if you are that interested look it up.

Krogan look like turtles, Krogan are reptile add in the word clutch and it's just the most logical conclusion. Humans don't lay eggs. So our word for unborn egg is not as emotive as our word for dead child. The Krogan are using our word for dead child, because they do lay eggs and it gets across the sense of loss they feel when the eggs don't hatch.

Like sea turtles pre-industrial (Sallarian contact) Krogan had a very high attrition rate. Most of them got eaten. The adaptive mechanism is more offspring. Remove the predation and you have a very serious population explosion, which led to the genophage.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 09 février 2011 - 08:59 .

[Praetor Knight]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Krogan look like turtles, Krogan are reptile

Since we're speculating, maybe this species is a more appropriate comparison for Krogan :innocent:

[AkiKishi]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Krogan look like turtles, Krogan are reptile

Since we're speculating, maybe this species is a more appropriate comparison for Krogan :innocent:

Platypi have mamalian characteristics. Do Krogan have any ? I don't recall that they do.

When I first heard Okeers "1000 in a clutch" I was like yeah right talk about hyberbole. However sea turtles can lay over 100 eggs in a clutch and they are a about a 10th the size of a Krogan. So at least in Scifi logic it's plausable.

[Zulu_DFA]

BobSmith101 wrote...

The intent was that it worked like the pill. The Krogan adapted and it worked more like a chemical abortion.

Clutch only applies to eggs. Krogan don't speak English so "stillborn" is a translation from the word in Krogan for "Egg that never hatched". Yep that fits.

CLUTCH

1
a : the claws or a hand in the act of grasping or seizing firmly
b : an often cruel or unrelenting control, power, or possession <the fell clutch of circumstance — W. E. Henley>
c : the act of grasping, holding, or restraining
2
a : a coupling used to connect and disconnect a driving and a driven part (as an engine and a transmission) of a mechanism
b : a lever (as a pedal) operating such a clutch
3
: a tight or critical situation : pinch <come through in the clutch

#1b, & #3 perfectly fit with the genophage.

This is supported by the grammar of the phrase "Let a thousand die in a clutch". The "clutch" is a place, condition or method of "dying", and not something the "thousands" are a part of (or it would have been written "let a thousand in a clutch die").

So it just means "Let a thousand die from the genophage".

[faeriehunter]

AxelBat wrote...
*snip*

While fertility is usually thought of as the ability to get pregnant (when female) or the ability to make women pregnant (when male), it can also refer to being able to carry a pregnancy to full term. In my opinion when Mordin or anyone else speaks of fertile or infertile krogan females they aren't contradicting Wrex or the codex, but referring to the "carrying a pregnancy to full term" part of fertility.

Praetor Shepard wrote...
But, one issue is that is not known, is whether there are multiple births like in a litter of puppies, or if Krogan only have single births (which might be less likely as a non-predatory species).

Multiple births seems the most likely. Because of the genophage only one in a thousand pregnancies carries to term, and Mordin tells us that this (by itself) isn't decreasing the krogan population, only reducing population growth to what it was before the salarians uplifted the krogan. So if krogan only have single births most of the time like humans, then krogan females would have to be pregnant thousands of times just to keep their population up.

Also, Urdnot Wreav calls Wrex his "brood brother", and I seem to recall a mention of "clutch" somewhere.

Modifié par faeriehunter, 09 février 2011 - 09:14 .

[AxelBat]

I can see your logic Zulu, and I can believe that when Mordin says he is not a murderer because he has taken no lives he probably takes the approach that the life is not considered so while developing. I can see how this would cause horror for the krogen and many others, but would leave those who believe Mordin's way calculative and understanding. I can see how that might leave two different interpretations, still born babies versus infertile. I'm still not sure though, you would think the game might explain it a little better, especially when Wrex talks about it. I could also see that fertile females might just refer to a female who, by chance, successfully had a child and because the Krogen are rather simple they might believe that this would make the female 'fertile.'

Again BobSmith, Krogen are not reptile, they appear reptilian but they are not related to reptiles because they are not from earth. Krogen mostly seem to talk like they have live births, even the codecs seem to point in this direction. Having eggs doesn't add up. Either way, I'm mostly satisfied with the above answer, even if it has a few loopholes.

Modifié par AxelBat, 09 février 2011 - 09:16 .

[Praetor Knight]

I double checked the Codex entries and in Krogan: Biology, there is this line:

The krogan evolved in a lethal ecology. Over millions of years, the grim struggle to survive larger predators, virulent disease, and resource scarcity on their homeworld, Tuchanka, turned the lizards into quintessential survivors.

So actually a better comparison species on Earth would be these guys, so some shade of reptilian at any rate:

[Terraneaux]

BobSmith101 wrote...
The pill prevents pregnancy - the morning after pill is a chemical abortion.
I'm not going into detail, if you are that interested look it up.

That's not what the 'morning after pill' is.  

Anyway, I seem to remember something about the genophage causing the growing Krogan's nervous systems to not develop properly, thus resulting in stillbirths but not really deaths as their brain was prevented from developing.  Fairly traumatic for the Krogan parents involved, really.  

[AkiKishi]

AxelBat wrote...

I can see your logic Zulu, and I can believe that when Mordin says he is not a murderer because he has taken no lives he probably takes the approach that the life is not considered so while developing. I can see how this would cause horror for the krogen and many others, but would leave those who believe Mordin's way calculative and understanding. I can see how that might leave two different interpretations, still born babies versus infertile. I'm still not sure though, you would think the game might explain it a little better, especially when Wrex talks about it. I could also see that fertile females might just refer to a female who, by chance, successfully had a child and because the Krogen are rather simple they might believe that this would make the female 'fertile.'

Again BobSmith, Krogen are not reptile, they appear reptilian but they are not related to reptiles because they are not from earth. Krogen mostly seem to talk like they have live births, even the codecs seem to point in this direction. Having eggs doesn't add up. Either way, I'm mostly satisfied with the above answer, even if it has a few loopholes.

Zulu does love his complex theories. I'll stick with the straightforwards explanation until it's proven otherwise.

They have reptilian characters(because they are based on turtles) whether or not they are reptiles in the strictist sense is symantics. Just like Taurians have lizard characterstics. And Salarians have amphibian characteristics. We know Salarians lay eggs beacause it's in the the game dialogue.It's probably the same for Krogan same reproductive system as what they are based on and fits what we know.  

[AkiKishi]

Terraneaux wrote...

That's not what the 'morning after pill' is.  

Then what is it ?

[Praetor Knight]

BobSmith101 wrote...

They have reptilian characters(because they are based on turtles) whether or not they are reptiles in the strictist sense is symantics. Just like Taurians have lizard characterstics. And Salarians have amphibian characteristics. We know Salarians lay eggs beacause it's in the the game dialogue.It's probably the same for Krogan same reproductive system as what they are based on and fits what we know.  

Here are a few articles on Reptile Reproduction so eggs are involved, but there are species that also give live birth, so the comparison to Krogan would still depend on knowing how their physiology works for pregnancies.

www.exoticpetvet.net/reptile/rerepro.html

http://eduscapes.com...zard/index2.htm

www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2007/02/27/1858120.htm

[Zulu_DFA]

BobSmith101 wrote...

AxelBat wrote...

I can see your logic Zulu, and I can believe that when Mordin says he is not a murderer because he has taken no lives he probably takes the approach that the life is not considered so while developing. I can see how this would cause horror for the krogen and many others, but would leave those who believe Mordin's way calculative and understanding. I can see how that might leave two different interpretations, still born babies versus infertile. I'm still not sure though, you would think the game might explain it a little better, especially when Wrex talks about it. I could also see that fertile females might just refer to a female who, by chance, successfully had a child and because the Krogen are rather simple they might believe that this would make the female 'fertile.'

Again BobSmith, Krogen are not reptile, they appear reptilian but they are not related to reptiles because they are not from earth. Krogen mostly seem to talk like they have live births, even the codecs seem to point in this direction. Having eggs doesn't add up. Either way, I'm mostly satisfied with the above answer, even if it has a few loopholes.

Zulu does love his complex theories. I'll stick with the straightforwards explanation until it's proven otherwise.

They have reptilian characters(because they are based on turtles) whether or not they are reptiles in the strictist sense is symantics. Just like Taurians have lizard characterstics. And Salarians have amphibian characteristics. We know Salarians lay eggs beacause it's in the the game dialogue.It's probably the same for Krogan same reproductive system as what they are based on and fits what we know.  

One last time:

1. Krogans don't lay eggs.

2. Krogans are not reptiles. They are aliens from another planet.

3. Their design is based on turtles as much as on any other family of terran reptiles (Kro-gan = Crocodile Gangster, etc.)

4. Viviparity in Reptiles.


@AxelBat

Of course, as a scientist, Mordin does not consider abortion to be a murder. Much less so when the fetus never developed a nervous system.

Now, try to explain that to a Krogan...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 février 2011 - 09:49 .

[Terraneaux]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

That's not what the 'morning after pill' is.  

Then what is it ?

When used as emergency contraception, it prevents implantation to begin with.  

[AkiKishi]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

They have reptilian characters(because they are based on turtles) whether or not they are reptiles in the strictist sense is symantics. Just like Taurians have lizard characterstics. And Salarians have amphibian characteristics. We know Salarians lay eggs beacause it's in the the game dialogue.It's probably the same for Krogan same reproductive system as what they are based on and fits what we know.  

Here are a few articles on Reptile Reproduction so eggs are involved, but there are species that also give live birth, so the comparison to Krogan would still depend on knowing how their physiology works for pregnancies.

www.exoticpetvet.net/reptile/rerepro.html

http://eduscapes.com...zard/index2.htm

www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2007/02/27/1858120.htm

Thanks, but because I accept for now that Okeer was refering to eggs in a clutch I'm accepting that until some contradictory evidence comes along.

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Krogans don't lay eggs.

It's not stated anywhere that they don't.  

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Krogans don't lay eggs.

It's not stated anywhere that they don't.  

It's not stated anywhere the Asari don't lay eggs.

But for the Krogans we can assert that for sure, because "stillbirth" is a term not applicable to oviparous species.

[Terraneaux]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Krogans don't lay eggs.

It's not stated anywhere that they don't.  

It's not stated anywhere the Asari don't lay eggs.

But for the Krogans we can assert that for sure, because "stillbirth" is a term not applicable to oviparous species.

That's just the cover story for what's really going on.  The truth is, the Krogan are actually oviparous, they just don't want you to know.  I'm gonna make a theory thread for it later on, with my copious amount of evidence.

[AkiKishi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's not stated anywhere the Asari don't lay eggs.

But for the Krogans we can assert that for sure, because "stillbirth" is a term not applicable to oviparous species.

Asari have navels and smaller number of offspring.

True from a human perspective at least.

[Tom.sparky]

It affects every cell in the Krogan anatomy inluding the egg and sp**m cells making their Birth Rate equal to the Birth Rate when they were confined to their own planet, e.g. before Salarians found them.

Modifié par Tom.sparky, 09 février 2011 - 10:04 .

[Tom.sparky]

IT'S GRUNT!!!!!!!

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

I'm gonna make a theory thread for it later on, with my copious amount of evidence.

Can't wait. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Tom.sparky wrote...

It affects every cell in the Krogan anatomy inluding the egg and sp**m cells making their Birth Rate equal to the Birth Rate when they were confined to their own planet, e.g. before Salarians found them.

Inaccurate. It returns their birth to death ratio to that evel.

Pre 1st contact Krogans: many births - many deaths.

Between the Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions: many births - few deaths (Disaster!).

Post genophage: few births - few deaths.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 février 2011 - 10:22 .