122 réponses à ce sujet

[Capeo]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Krogans don't lay eggs.

It's not stated anywhere that they don't.  

It's not stated anywhere the Asari don't lay eggs.

But for the Krogans we can assert that for sure, because "stillbirth" is a term not applicable to oviparous species.

The word clutch means a group of eggs laid at the same time.  Trying as you did above to obscure it with its other meanings is clutching at straws (pun quite intended).  Okeer also taunts humans for having teats meaning Krogan don't have mammary glands.  All this points to laying eggs. 

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Clutch_(eggs)
 
The other simple fact is the only way for them to out reproduce other species in real time during the Rebellions is for them to have a huge number of offspring at the same time or be constantly birthing.  Their long lifespan has nothing to do with it as that would not make them immediately dangerous.  Also, if they reproduce through viparity or ovoviparity it would not be called a clucth.

Of course, there is also the issue of multiple sources (codex, Mordin, Wrex, Okeer) contradicting themselves.  Okeer though, not caring about the genophage at all, would probably be most honest about it. 

 

[Zulu_DFA]

^ Since you've shot yourself in the foot with your own pun, I will not bother with you.

[transcendent12]

When Mordin says that it is incorrectly thought of as a sterility plague. I think that's more to do with Krogan believing it was made to wipe them out. If the Krogan believe it was designed to stop all births, it is considered a sterility plague to them. The survivors fit into the Krogan ideals/ego regarding strength/survivorability and is nothing to do with any consideration the Salarians put into actually *preserving* the Krogan species.



I'm also am against the idea that only a select few females are able to give birth (and with 100% reliability). Just think of it as each male and female has a 0.03165 chance in creating a viable gamete equivalent. Thus everytime two krogans procreate. They have a 1 in 1000 chance of the offspring of surviving. Otherwise it comes out dead. Again, if they believe the genophage is meant to stop ALL offspring, regardless of whether they come out dead or alive, it could still be considered sterility.

[Capeo]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

^ Since you've shot yourself in the foot with your own pun, I will not bother with you.

Yes, because Okeer clearly meant "let a thousand die in a clutch" in regards to Krogan reproduction in a metaphysical sense rather than, you know, what he was actually talking about.  Please.  There is no grammatical way clutch can be being used other than as a clutch of eggs.  You posit what he meant was "let a thousand die in a grasp."  That's idiotic.  I'll take your can't bother as "can't deal with logic".  But, hey, don't let the English language get in the way.

Modifié par Capeo, 09 février 2011 - 02:50 .

[Whatever42]

There are more words pointing to live births than eggs: pregnancy, carry to term, still birth versus clutch. I have to surrender the point.



Yet, Krogan are very large and in traditional Krogan society likely don't live very long. I doubt all that breeding happens over a 1000 year lifespan when the average Krogan probably doesn't survive a fraction of that. So Krogan, to reproduce very quick at a young age, have to either birth multiple children or birth them very, very quickly.



Further, even if the term clutch refers to a batch of internally developed eggs, it does still point to a collection of eggs for one female. Perhaps Krogan females are only born with 1000 eggs and they gestate their young in a few weeks. I can't imagine them birthing 1000 baby Krogan at once but perhaps they do - they only partially develop internally and then they're expelled into a breeding pool.



But I do cede the point that there is internal gestation of the young.

[Zulu_DFA]

transcendent12 wrote...

When Mordin says that it is incorrectly thought of as a sterility plague. I think that's more to do with Krogan believing it was made to wipe them out. If the Krogan believe it was designed to stop all births, it is considered a sterility plague to them. The survivors fit into the Krogan ideals/ego regarding strength/survivorability and is nothing to do with any consideration the Salarians put into actually *preserving* the Krogan species.

I'm also am against the idea that only a select few females are able to give birth (and with 100% reliability). Just think of it as each male and female has a 0.03165 chance in creating a viable gamete equivalent. Thus everytime two krogans procreate. They have a 1 in 1000 chance of the offspring of surviving. Otherwise it comes out dead. Again, if they believe the genophage is meant to stop ALL offspring, regardless of whether they come out dead or alive, it could still be considered sterility.

Mordin dubs the dead female at the Weyrloc base "infertile" after a quick scan. This doesn't leave much room for interpretation: she never could have babies, so she gave herself up for Maleon's research. Just like the captured Urdnot scout.

In ME1 there is a planet description telling a story of Warlord Shiagur, who leveraged her status of a fertile female into a position of power. And she had hundreds of children, so that it allows half the Krogan these days claim they have her blood in them.

Conclusion: there are "fertile" and "infertile" females. The infertile can never hope to have any babies, but the fertile have them plenty.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 février 2011 - 03:02 .

[Whatever42]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Mordin dubs the dead female at the Weyroloc base "infertile" after a quick scan. This doesn't live much room for interpretation: she never could have babies, so she gave herself up for Maleon's research. Just like the captured Urdnot scout.

In ME1 there is a planet description telling a story of Warlord Shiagur, who leveraged her status of a fertile female into a position of power. And she had hundreds of children, so that it allows half the Krogan these days claim they have her blood in them.

Conclusion: there are "fertile" and "infertile" females. The infertile can never hope to have any babies, but the fertile have them plenty.

Scientifically, that's hard to rationalize. The genophage infects all Krogan. It's not an intelligent virus but it's been engineered to interfere with fetal development but have a very small failure rate, allowing a few young to develop and survive.

I also assume its also been engineered to not evolve in any fashion or else it could have unforseen consquences.

For it to create fertile and unfertile females, it must infect the mother, not the fetus, since the fetuses will each have different DNA. If it completely ignores certain females then those females must have some sort of immunity to the genophage, likely based on their genetic makeup. Since Krogan females birth hundreds or thousands of children, the genetic traits that make that female immune is very likely passed forward into at least some of her children.

Before no time at all, there would be a huge number of Krogan female immune. But its clear that's not the way it works. The survival of the fetus is more random that that. The Krogan did evolve to increase the odds but never evolved to be immune.

[AkiKishi]

Viable offspring may be so rare that any female that has one is prized in case she manages it again.

[Biotic_Warlock]

I think Mordin and other Krogan said the embryo/foetus died in early development.

[Zulu_DFA]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Scientifically, that's hard to rationalize. The genophage infects all Krogan. It's not an intelligent virus but it's been engineered to interfere with fetal development but have a very small failure rate, allowing a few young to develop and survive.

I also assume its also been engineered to not evolve in any fashion or else it could have unforseen consquences.

For it to create fertile and unfertile females, it must infect the mother, not the fetus, since the fetuses will each have different DNA. If it completely ignores certain females then those females must have some sort of immunity to the genophage, likely based on their genetic makeup. Since Krogan females birth hundreds or thousands of children, the genetic traits that make that female immune is very likely passed forward into at least some of her children.

Before no time at all, there would be a huge number of Krogan female immune. But its clear that's not the way it works. The survival of the fetus is more random that that. The Krogan did evolve to increase the odds but never evolved to be immune.

For exactly this reason the virus had to be designed so that its effectiveness would not depend on any "Krogan" quality (such as immunity). It had to be designed to work based only on it's own viral qualities (such as inertness).

The slight adaptation that took place over the 1000 years, registered by Mordin and O'Keer, was some kind of mutation that allowed some Krogans to resist even the active virus. It must have appeared only after Genophage Mk. I was deployed, so it could not have been factored in during its development. Hence, Mk. II.

And sure, the virus affects the mother. Unless it's that 1/1000 inert culture, it blocks (or, alternatively, over-stimulates) the secretion of the hormone responsible for the development of the nervous system of the fetus.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 février 2011 - 04:00 .

[transcendent12]

I also got the impression all females were valuable in Wrex's united nation. Also in mordin's loyalty quest werloc guld has had 2 children which apparently is some god like coincidence. If he could just screw the same female twice, that really wouldn't be so special.

We definitely have discontinuity here. Evidence supports both rationales.

[James2912]

We need Bioware to release a book or comic covering this topic and a book or comic covering the Morning War, both topics need further explaining.

[Terraneaux]

We've got mutually exclusive terms here; 'clutch' and 'stillborn.' Short of word of god here we're going to have to assume it could be either, despite Zulu doing his trademark thing of ignoring all evidence contraindicating his claims. Probably just a case of the writers not doing their homework, like a lot of stuff in ME2.



On a related note, you know what irritates me? The misuse of the term 'battlemaster' in ME2. In ME1, it was clear that battlemasters were krogan biotic warriors, not necessarily commanders. In ME2, the word is used interchangeably with 'warlord.'

[Praetor Knight]

Terraneaux wrote...

We've got mutually exclusive terms here; 'clutch' and 'stillborn.' Short of word of god here we're going to have to assume it could be either, despite Zulu doing his trademark thing of ignoring all evidence contraindicating his claims. Probably just a case of the writers not doing their homework, like a lot of stuff in ME2.

Lizards, like horned lizards, the Codex calls Krogan Lizards.

[Terraneaux]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Lizards, like horned lizards, the Codex calls Krogan Lizards.

Well, you can't literally have a 'lizard' on another planet.  You can have an organism similar to one, though.  

Krogan always reminded me of humanoid snapper turtles.  

[Praetor Knight]

Terraneaux wrote...

Well, you can't literally have a 'lizard' on another planet.  You can have an organism similar to one, though.  

Krogan always reminded me of humanoid snapper turtles.  

At any rate Krogan could have live births and eggs, like lizards are capable of. So close enough for a comparative baseline at least.

And since ducks and turles are often used, why not?

Edit: Fixing Quote and adding link: Reptile reproduction

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 09 février 2011 - 08:03 .

[Homebound]

i remember clan weyrloc or something, the leader, he mentioned something about shepard not seeing the piles of their dead children. so ya.

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

We've got mutually exclusive terms here; 'clutch' and 'stillborn.' Short of word of god here we're going to have to assume it could be either, despite Zulu doing his trademark thing of ignoring all evidence contraindicating his claims. Probably just a case of the writers not doing their homework, like a lot of stuff in ME2.

You wanted "word of god"? Here it is.



Two articles in the Codex, TWO!!! repeat the same thing: that the females "carry to term".

It also confirms the majority of females is unable to carry to term in principle.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 février 2011 - 05:16 .

[Moronic Fool]

Both.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moronic Fool wrote...

Both.

No, it does not prevent pregnancies.

[Moronic Fool]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moronic Fool wrote...

Both.

No, it does not prevent pregnancies.

yes it does.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Moronic Fool wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moronic Fool wrote...

Both.

No, it does not prevent pregnancies.

yes it does.

well the female krogan doesnt give birth... so i sense confusion.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moronic Fool wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Moronic Fool wrote...

Both.

No, it does not prevent pregnancies.

yes it does.

Screenshot, please.