89 réponses à ce sujet

[Wicked 702]

Ryzaki wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

Again, this is an issue of paradigm. And the whole "realism in a fantasy" thing. I'm talking about medieval/renaissance sized people (weight, height, diet, etc.). I don't disagree that a one-handed sword would certainly be reasonable.

And a male farmer couldn't have picked up some 2HD weapons either? You're point? The female is supposed to be a trained warrior.

Now we're qualifying the statement. Before, it was women in general (the average). Now, it's women specifically trained as such.

What I said is that a normal (average) women of the period would likely be unable to properly handle a two-handed weapon unless she spent her life training for it (bulking up like the incredible hulk).

We seem to be saying very similar things here.

[Ryzaki]

Norskatt wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...



So...you going to ignore the rest of my post?

Yes, actually. It was pointless.

So...women can't wear armor at all without being silly and unrealistic? Good to know.

I guess Ser Cautherin loked really silly in that heavy armor swinging that sword around despite being Loghain's second in command and a well trained warrior.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:11 .

[Loerwyn]

Wicked 702 wrote...
Again, this is an issue of paradigm. And the whole "realism in a fantasy" thing. I'm talking about medieval/renaissance sized people (weight, height, diet, etc.).

2-3kg is not heavy, even for people of that time frame. They, arguably, ate healthier back then and did more physical work so it's far from unreasonable to expect a woman 600-700 years ago to be able to lift a two handed sword, and with training and exercise a heavier weapon.

[Ryzaki]

Wicked 702 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

Again, this is an issue of paradigm. And the whole "realism in a fantasy" thing. I'm talking about medieval/renaissance sized people (weight, height, diet, etc.). I don't disagree that a one-handed sword would certainly be reasonable.

And a male farmer couldn't have picked up some 2HD weapons either? You're point? The female is supposed to be a trained warrior.

Now we're qualifying the statement. Before, it was women in general (the average). Now, it's women specifically trained as such.

What I said is that a normal (average) women of the period would likely be unable to properly handle a two-handed weapon unless she spent her life training for it (bulking up like the incredible hulk).

We seem to be saying very similar things here.

Huh? My point wasn't women in general could do such things (hell men in general can't do them!) but that the Female PC who is supposed to be a well trained warrior couldn't.

...I think we are saying the same thing.

But you forget Fereldan has magic and of the female warrior classes 3 of those are well off enough not to worry about starvation.

I don't agree about the bulking up like the incredible hulk. She'd be fit and would have some really buff arms  But she wouldn't be a beast.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Wicked 702]

Ryzaki wrote...

Huh? My point wasn't women in general could do such things (hell men in general can't do them!) but that the Female PC who is supposed to be a well trained warrior couldn't.

...I think we are saying the same thing.

But you forget Fereldan has magic and of the female warrior classes 3 of those are well off enough not to worry about starvation.

I don't agree about the buling up like the incredible hulk. She'd be fit. But she wouldn't be a beast.

Poorly placed hyperbole maybe. Didn't mean it as a factual statement. My mistake.

And yes, I agree with the rest. Which is exactly why I knew bringing up realism in a fantasy setting was stupid.

[Ryzaki]

Oh. Sorry for jumping the gun then. XD

[Norskatt]

Ryzaki wrote...



So...women can't wear armor at all without being silly and unrealistic? Good to know.

I guess Ser Cautherin loked really silly in that heavy armor swinging that sword around despite being Loghain's second in command and a well trained warrior.

We each have our own thoughts & ideas about what looks to be silly or senseless. I'm postive that there are/were women quite capable of wearing a full suit of armor. But, my guess would be that they were a rarity indeed. And even if I set aside the weight issue...how many of those said women could even afford the cost of said armor? The Dalish were not wealthy be any means. Is it realistic, even in game, that they'd have means necessary to obtain said armor?


I'm not trying to berrate you and say that your opinions are stupid. Nor am I trying to sway your opinion. I simply gave my own as is the point of this thread (and most of the others).  But I would appreciate if you toned down your comments to me. There's no need for snark or bitterness.

[Wicked 702]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...
Again, this is an issue of paradigm. And the whole "realism in a fantasy" thing. I'm talking about medieval/renaissance sized people (weight, height, diet, etc.).

2-3kg is not heavy, even for people of that time frame. They, arguably, ate healthier back then and did more physical work so it's far from unreasonable to expect a woman 600-700 years ago to be able to lift a two handed sword, and with training and exercise a heavier weapon.

Perhaps I'm projecting my own experience into reality. The leverage effect of the length of the weapon plays a big part though. But there are some reasonable comparisons to be made.

Here's the specs on the M16, the current primary rifle of the US military. (What does the UK use these days, is it the FAMAS?)

Specifications (M16A2)


Weight
7.8 lb (3.5 kg) (unloaded)

8.79 lb (4.0 kg) (loaded)

Anyway, you can see that we're talking a very similar (albeit a little heavier) weight than a typical two-handed sword. Ask any serviceman (woman) about how much training it takes to just be able to carry the darn thing around. So while not completely unreasonable for a dedicated individual, it's probably unlikely for your average bloke.

[Ryzaki]

Norskatt wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...



So...women can't wear armor at all without being silly and unrealistic? Good to know.

I guess Ser Cautherin loked really silly in that heavy armor swinging that sword around despite being Loghain's second in command and a well trained warrior.

We each have our own thoughts & ideas about what looks to be silly or senseless. I'm postive that there are/were women quite capable of wearing a full suit of armor. But, my guess would be that they were a rarity indeed. And even if I set aside the weight issue...how many of those said women could even afford the cost of said armor? The Dalish were not wealthy be any means. Is it realistic, even in game, that they'd have means necessary to obtain said armor?


I'm not trying to berrate you and say that your opinions are stupid. Nor am I trying to sway your opinion. I simply gave my own as is the point of this thread (and most of the others).  But I would appreciate if you toned down your comments to me. There's no need for snark or bitterness.

You forget that the female in order to do all those things has to be trained to do them?

You must have a X amount of strength to wear heavy/massive armor
You have to have X ability to be able to wield heavy weapons effectively.

Heck don't you need a certain amount of strength to even equip the weapon? 

You forget all that? 

You're not arguing that a random female can't do those things but that the female PC who was trained probably from an extremely young age can't. 

Realistically speaking that leather armor wouldn't look like that regardless so it's a moot point. Also Thedas isn't the real world. Armor is apparently mass produced there so that point is invalid.

What bitterness? You need some thicker skin.

Also on the mark of affording. The HN and DN are poor now? (I can't play a DC warrior personally much less a 2HD one). Also after Ostagar the PC can make quite a bit of money more than enough to afford a nice set of massive armor.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:36 .

[Norskatt]

Sorry Double Post 

Modifié par Norskatt, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:25 .

[Norskatt]

Ryzaki wrote...



You're not arguing that a random female can't do those things but that the female PC who was trained probably from an extremely young age can't. 

I'm not arguing anything..lol  You are;)   

(and if I had thicker skin I wouldn't need the armor!) 

[Loerwyn]

Wicked 702 wrote...
Here's the specs on the M16, the current primary rifle of the US military. (What does the UK use these days, is it the FAMAS?)

Haven't got a clue.

Wicked 702 wrote...
Anyway,
you can see that we're talking a very similar (albeit a little heavier)weight than a typical two-handed sword. Ask any serviceman (woman) about how much training it takes to just be able to carry the darn thingaround. So while not completely unreasonable for a dedicated individual, it's probably unlikely for your average bloke.

I was simply saying that it's not unreasonable for many people to be able to lift the sword, but I will agree that lifting is different to using. I might be able to lift a sword (Not tried, though), but using it - and using it effectively - is a different matter completely. My point is, or should I say was, that a woman would have no issue using a heavier weapon once the proper training had been given - Something that is going to be very true for the Human and Dwarf Nobles, possibly the Dwarf Commoner - The Mage, City Elf and Dalish Elf may not be as capable, but it's possible that they pick it up in the weeks and months we don't see them during DA:O.

So, from a roleplay sense, really only two combinations should be using 2H w/ heavier armour - And those are the two nobles.

Modifié par OnlyShallow89, 17 novembre 2010 - 10:33 .

[Wicked 702]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...
Here's the specs on the M16, the current primary rifle of the US military. (What does the UK use these days, is it the FAMAS?)

Haven't got a clue.

Wicked 702 wrote...
Anyway,
you can see that we're talking a very similar (albeit a little heavier)weight than a typical two-handed sword. Ask any serviceman (woman) about how much training it takes to just be able to carry the darn thingaround. So while not completely unreasonable for a dedicated individual, it's probably unlikely for your average bloke.

I was simply saying that it's not unreasonable for many people to be able to lift the sword, but I will agree that lifting is different to using. I might be able to lift a sword (Not tried, though), but using it - and using it effectively - is a different matter completely. My point is, or should I say was, that a woman would have no issue using a heavier weapon once the proper training had been given - Something that is going to be very true for the Human and Dwarf Nobles, possibly the Dwarf Commoner - The Mage, City Elf and Dalish Elf may not be as capable, but it's possible that they pick it up in the weeks and months we don't see them during DA:O.

So, from a roleplay sense, really only two combinations should be using 2H w/ heavier armour - And those are the two nobles.

Indeed.

[Ryzaki]

Awesome. Those are the only two I ever had using 2HDs anyways.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Actually, I looked it up, and a Ranaissance two-handed sword was only about 5-8 pounds. A woman could swing that with no problem.

[The Blue bird]

Wicked 702 wrote...
(What does the UK use these days, is it the FAMAS?)

That's the French, The UK uses the SA80, also known as the L85A2. The Irish use the Steyr AUG

[Ryzaki]

The Water God wrote...

Moondoggie wrote...

I've never worn armor so i couldn't say lol.

It's not really a horrible thing but sometimes i wish they'd design women in games without thinking of the sex appeal first but i guess that is what sells. Though not every attractive woman dresses like a street hooker >.> so they really don't have to have them walk around showing cleavage and skin to be sexy

well of course it sells. If they just filled the game with fat, bald, ugly women no one would buy it.

Plus I could say the same thing for the guys. Why do all the guys have to have perfectly toned abs and muscles showing through their armor. How come I can't give my drawf a beer gut?

Muscles showing through armor? Where? I don't see any skin. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:27 .

[Addai]

bleetman wrote...

If you're playing the PC version, have a looksie at this, which has an optional uni-sex version of leather armour. Like so:



(Hooray for tmp7704)

Seconded!

[rickcr]

Ryzaki wrote...
 
I don't agree about the bulking up like the incredible hulk. She'd be fit and would have some really buff arms  But she wouldn't be a beast.

This shows ignorance about human physiology. I suppose you thought it was accurate the bionic man could lift a car with just a bionic arm and not a bionic back and glutes?

I read this whole thread and you are just flat out wrong if you think the women AS DEPICTED in DA could wield those large 2H swords (as their physique is depicted. At least the humans and elves.) There is no freaking way based on those physiques that they could. And that's not even wearing medium or heavy armor. The chicks would need to be WAY more bulky - not just the arms. 

I could not care less, since it's a FANTASY genre. There's a billion things wrong with the logic of the game but who cares. We aren't playing the game for realism so I don't want a female looking like a dude swinging a two handed sword or battle axe. (If you want realism then you're playing the wrong game.)

[Ryzaki]

rickcr wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
 
I don't agree about the bulking up like the incredible hulk. She'd be fit and would have some really buff arms  But she wouldn't be a beast.

This shows ignorance about human physiology. I suppose you thought it was accurate the bionic man could lift a car with just a bionic arm and not a bionic back and glutes?

I read this whole thread and you are just flat out wrong if you think the women AS DEPICTED in DA could wield those large 2H swords (as their physique is depicted. At least the humans and elves.) There is no freaking way based on those physiques that they could. And that's not even wearing medium or heavy armor. The chicks would need to be WAY more bulky - not just the arms. 

I could not care less, since it's a FANTASY genre. There's a billion things wrong with the logic of the game but who cares. We aren't playing the game for realism so I don't want a female looking like a dude swinging a two handed sword or battle axe. (If you want realism then you're playing the wrong game.)

You do not become the hulk from lifting a 2HD sword. For some someone claiming to be knowledgeable did you even read the rest of the topic? We have no idea what those swords weigh.

And where are you getting the bionic man from? I didn't mention anything about her lifting a damn car but a weapon. A weapon that she has been trained with for a while. The least you could do is actually read the one line you quoted where I mentioned physical fitness. <_< If you want to flaunt superior intellect it's best to actually use some.

And I already said she would need to be buffer but unless those swords are hundreds of pounds she would not look anywhere near the damn hulk.  (Urgh I hate the twig arms on the normal female form)

Of course her body would actually need to look fit. Females in DA aren't fit they're just skinny! But saying she'd look like a hulk is just...gah. I said her arms would be buffer but I also mentioned looking fit. I thought that was enough of a qualifier. People who are fit are usually fit all over their bodies and not just one area. Her stomach obviously would be more muscular as would her legs but most of her body would be covered by the armor anyways.

Also looking like a dude? So...what being muscular makes a woman a man now? 

My whole thought of the female form actually being something that could lift those weapons with ease caused the . Not the thought of the overly endowed, twig armed default female mesh doing so.

Thank ra for modders. At least the female doesn't look so ridculous now.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Ryzaki]

The Water God wrote...

Women like buff men

Men don't like buff women

Not all women like buff men.

Now I find athletic men hot. But overly buff...no. Too veinly...and urgh. It's gross to look at. I prefer toned guys.

It's personal taste. Some men find buff women hott some don't. Some women find buff men hott some don't.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:03 .