187 réponses à ce sujet

[The Masked Rog]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
Don't think of it like that, think of it as removing features without a good substitute. Would you not object to that if it were any other game or genre?

Blarg. How about thinking of it in relation to other changes in the game and issues with the previous one as opposed to in complete isolation?

Because I believe that I'm right, and that the only issue with the way it was setup in DAO was that a lot of the armors looked the same. Which could be improved by providing more of everything, not taking away the feature completely.

It could also be improved by giving you good looking armor, and no ability to change it.

Indeed, and that's the option they are going with. That said, I believe Bioware makes compelling characters that I can connect with on an emotional level, and that has nothing to do with their fashion choice... except for Miranda, maybe.

But in Origins, the characters were all unique because of their personalities and depth. That had nothing to do with whatever armor they were wearing, and they were all incredibly individualistic regardless of what you had them wear. But I liked the fact that I could change their apparel to suit my needs for them on the battlefield.

You want unique armor/clothing for each party member (and so do I) but you are okay with not being able to choose. That is the difference between our ideas. For games that are all about choices, Bioware seems just as content with choosing for us.

The question is you don't choose the companion's inventory by the same exact reason you don't select the villain's outfit. You are not roleplaying the villain or the NPCs. What I'd like to see is influencing companion armor through dialogue. You approach morrigan and ask her "Would you mind dressing this insanely overpowered robes?" I don't see her saying no to that, but if you asked her about dressing a chantry's robes she'd problably say no. I know this is just wishful thinking and DAII won't include this option, but it still, IMO, takes a step in the right direction and much improves my immersion.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

The Masked Rog wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
Don't think of it like that, think of it as removing features without a good substitute. Would you not object to that if it were any other game or genre?

Blarg. How about thinking of it in relation to other changes in the game and issues with the previous one as opposed to in complete isolation?

Because I believe that I'm right, and that the only issue with the way it was setup in DAO was that a lot of the armors looked the same. Which could be improved by providing more of everything, not taking away the feature completely.

Sometimes things are better if they are made simple. For example, I didn't like the fact that in Assassin's Creed 2 I had to travel all the way back to the villa to change my outfit, but I could instantly change into Altair's outfit within the pause menu.

Sometimes, I like it simple regardless of immersion.

It could also be improved by giving you good looking armor, and no ability to change it.

Indeed, and that's the option they are going with. That said, I believe Bioware makes compelling characters that I can connect with on an emotional level, and that has nothing to do with their fashion choice... except for Miranda, maybe.

But in Origins, the characters were all unique because of their personalities and depth. That had nothing to do with whatever armor they were wearing, and they were all incredibly individualistic regardless of what you had them wear. But I liked the fact that I could change their apparel to suit my needs for them on the battlefield.

You want unique armor/clothing for each party member (and so do I) but you are okay with not being able to choose. That is the difference between our ideas. For games that are all about choices, Bioware seems just as content with choosing for us.

The question is you don't choose the companion's inventory by the same exact reason you don't select the villain's outfit. You are not roleplaying the villain or the NPCs. What I'd like to see is influencing companion armor through dialogue. You approach morrigan and ask her "Would you mind dressing this insanely overpowered robes?" I don't see her saying no to that, but if you asked her about dressing a chantry's robes she'd problably say no. I know this is just wishful thinking and DAII won't include this option, but it still, IMO, takes a step in the right direction and much improves my immersion.

[crimzontearz]

FieryDove wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

also...as I said I approve of DA2 going in the direction of PST but are you telling me that Isabella's outfit makes sense for a melee focused character? a shirt, thongs and boots?

It makes all the sense in the world...to some apparently. Same with people walking around all exposed on vacuum frozen planets. (ME2 squadmates). There I said it out loud.

even better ....Jacob is an ex alliance marine.

who wears  a skintight suit with no armor

I dare the devs (yeah you too Stanley) to go to a marine vet and ask them "hey would you forsake to wear your vest/body armor in favor of a non proitective outfit that makes you look sexier/more badass on the field"

or better.....go ask them "if your sargent tells you to wear your vest..are you gonna say -NO-?" 

[Maria Caliban]

crimzontearz wrote...

and in that I agree with you Maria....BUT

in Awakening for Example my warden was the commander of the grey, with two nobility titles and my party was comprised by Grey Warden recruits. Are you telling me I should not be able to tell Oghren to wear the Massive armour of KalHirol's defense I just  aquired? is a recruit gonna say "NO" to the commander in such an instance?

also...as I said I approve of DA2 going in the direction of PST but are you telling me that Isabella's outfit makes sense for a melee focused character? a shirt, thongs and boots?

If the PC is in a position of direct authority over a companion, such as being a commanding officer in a psudeo-military organization, I agree that the PC should be able to dictate what the companion wears.

However, outside of Awakening, I don't believe that's been the case in any BioWare game. The relationship between the PC and their companions in the majority of BioWare games is closer to that of the captain of a pirate ship; given authority during battle, but not expected to control the day-to-day aspects of the crew's lives.

[AlanC9]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
There is a fundamental difference between deleting something that was already worthless (the 500 grey iron daggers) and something that is truly fundamental to RPG's (the inventory system/party customization). 

Of course, what's fundamental in RPGs differs from one player to another. The reason the mods lock "what is an RPG?" threads is that they're not resolvable.

The very idea of taking useful features away in a sequel is just... dumb. Bioware even expressed regret over deleting the inventory system in Mass Effect 2 not too long ago, and yet, they seem to have forgotten that inventory management is directly linked to outfitting your party. So, now with DA 2, we still have inventory but the party customization has been deleted. Ummm.... why?

Not worth doing?

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:12 .

[AtreiyaN7]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
Don't think of it like that, think of it as removing features without a good substitute. Would you not object to that if it were any other game or genre?

Blarg. How about thinking of it in relation to other changes in the game and issues with the previous one as opposed to in complete isolation?

Because I believe that I'm right, and that the only issue with the way it was setup in DAO was that a lot of the armors looked the same. Which could be improved by providing more of everything, not taking away the feature completely.

Riffing on Mies van der Rohe, Dieter Rams said, "Less is better."  We give up some small measure of quantity for quality (one would hope anyway - we'll see). Is your idea of "more of everything" the same old armor with more colors or minor changes to the ornamentation/designs? I don't see all that much of a point in devoting a lot of effort and resources to prettify plain, statless armor that you'll ditch in a hearbeat for something with superior stats eventually.

[Bootsykk]

DragonB wrote...


but one of the main reasons I fell in love with DA was the ability to customize before and within the game ...

... DAII doesn't seem to offer the same therefore I do not believe it is truly DA the only relation it has to it is the names.

That's an... interesting assumption.
Here are the relations:
1. Same world
2. Same storyline
3. Similair combat styles
4. Choice-oriented gameplay
5. Party-system tactical combat
6. Customization of PC's appearance, class, and attributes
7. You get the point

It's a little more than drastic to state that BECAUSE one cannot select their race and origin (which had about ZERO effect on the gameplay, other than a few interesting scenarios popped in here and there), or because one cannot play dress-up with armor, or because one cannot completely customize their companions...
that DA2 has no relation to DA:O other than the name "dragon age"

[Aermas]

The companion should wear what is tactically best regardless of personal preference. No one likes to wear chainmail it's fluid weight & it's noisy, but if it saves your life from a darkspawn's blade then you are going to wear it.

[Nerivant]

Aermas wrote...

The companion should wear what is tactically best regardless of personal preference. No one likes to wear chainmail it's fluid weight & it's noisy, but if it saves your life from a darkspawn's blade then you are going to wear it.

If it wrecks your fighting style and gets you killed by a darkspawn, you shouldn't have worn it.

Just saying.

[crimzontearz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

and in that I agree with you Maria....BUT

in Awakening for Example my warden was the commander of the grey, with two nobility titles and my party was comprised by Grey Warden recruits. Are you telling me I should not be able to tell Oghren to wear the Massive armour of KalHirol's defense I just  aquired? is a recruit gonna say "NO" to the commander in such an instance?

also...as I said I approve of DA2 going in the direction of PST but are you telling me that Isabella's outfit makes sense for a melee focused character? a shirt, thongs and boots?

If the PC is in a position of direct authority over a companion, such as being a commanding officer in a psudeo-military organization, I agree that the PC should be able to dictate what the companion wears.

However, outside of Awakening, I don't believe that's been the case in any BioWare game. The relationship between the PC and their companions in the majority of BioWare games is closer to that of the captain of a pirate ship; given authority during battle, but not expected to control the day-to-day aspects of the crew's lives.

you have a point, I was using awakening only as a fitting example

yet even in MAss Effect 1 and  2 there are several NPCs who are directly your underlines in a paramilitary organization

[Aermas]

Nerivant wrote...

Aermas wrote...

The companion should wear what is tactically best regardless of personal preference. No one likes to wear chainmail it's fluid weight & it's noisy, but if it saves your life from a darkspawn's blade then you are going to wear it.

If it wrecks your fighting style and gets you killed by a darkspawn, you shouldn't have worn it.

Just saying.

Most fighting styles do not incorporate armor in there training, no one wants to focus on getting hit as a strategy. Knights in armor would practice combat in the thought that they did not have their armor to help them. Proper armor does not imped on flexibility too much either.

[AlanC9]

Play the realism card and everyone ends up in plate armor anyway. DAO was designed around making alternative armor weights viable but this isn't true ITRW.

[Nerivant]

Aermas wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

Aermas wrote...

The companion should wear what is tactically best regardless of personal preference. No one likes to wear chainmail it's fluid weight & it's noisy, but if it saves your life from a darkspawn's blade then you are going to wear it.

If it wrecks your fighting style and gets you killed by a darkspawn, you shouldn't have worn it.

Just saying.

Most fighting styles do not incorporate armor in there training, no one wants to focus on getting hit as a strategy. Knights in armor would practice combat in the thought that they did not have their armor to help them. Proper armor does not imped on flexibility too much either.

I'm talking about going into battle wearing something you've never worn before, let alone fought in before. There are 312 things that can go wrong.

[Aermas]

Wearing plate does not imped your combat style! If you must have not armor on the rest of you (for whatever ridiculous reason) a metal breastplate is advisable & does not do anything untoward your movement.

[Maria Caliban]

crimzontearz wrote...

you have a point, I was using awakening only as a fitting example

yet even in MAss Effect 1 and  2 there are several NPCs who are directly your underlines in a paramilitary organization

Miranda is not an underling. She's the Cerberus director of operations sent to help you and look after Cerberus' interests/investments. Her authority on the ship might be less than yours, but within Cerberus itself, she probably has a higher 'rank' than the Commander.

Both Miranda and Jacob are in Cerberus uniforms, however, which is presumably what Cerberus wants them to wear.

I have no problem with Cerberus officers wearing Cerberus uniforms and equipment. The uniforms themselves are problematic. That they wear them in almost vacuums and toxic/hostile environments is groan inducing.

I support the use of visually distinctive outfits for companions, but I also want them to look practical. Even in game, people acknowledge that Miranda's outfit is ridiculous and I'd expect an ex-Alliance biotic to wear light armor.

I understood Morrigan's outfit in Dragon Age. If they had the same system uniform system, I'd want Alistar to wear something like the Templar armor and Oghran to wear distinctively dwarven armor.

[A.N.A.N]

crimzontearz wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

also...as I said I approve of DA2 going in the direction of PST but are you telling me that Isabella's outfit makes sense for a melee focused character? a shirt, thongs and boots?

It makes all the sense in the world...to some apparently. Same with people walking around all exposed on vacuum frozen planets. (ME2 squadmates). There I said it out loud.

even better ....Jacob is an ex alliance marine.

who wears  a skintight suit with no armor

I dare the devs (yeah you too Stanley) to go to a marine vet and ask them "hey would you forsake to wear your vest/body armor in favor of a non proitective outfit that makes you look sexier/more badass on the field"

or better.....go ask them "if your sargent tells you to wear your vest..are you gonna say -NO-?" 

Jacob is a terrible example. In the Mass Effect universe armour is skintight. See what Shepard wears throughout all of ME1, skin tight armour.

[Bootsykk]

Aermas wrote...

Wearing plate does not imped your combat style! If you must have not armor on the rest of you (for whatever ridiculous reason) a metal breastplate is advisable & does not do anything untoward your movement.

Oy. Let me help you understand something. For this demonstration, I will use Isabella.

Isabella: Do you have any clue how heavy plate armor is? How do you expect me to sneak up on an enemy if I'm lumbering around in plate? And how do you expect my balance not to be thrown off by a sudden twenty pound weight on my chest? Maybe you've never tried it before, but even just a chainmail shirt is ridiculously heavy. You want me to wear that armor? Screw off, Hawke. I won't. What are you going to do about it?


In other words, this conversation of what should be included and what shouldn't is assuming that your companions are mindless drones that will derobe and suit up on your command. I fail to see how that is the more logical choice.


EDIT: Also, if you're using ME2 as a subject to complain about, keep in mind that you're talking about a universe in which vehicles travel faster than light, there is a such thing as element zero, and an intelligent machine race that is having a rave on Isaac Newton's coffin.

Modifié par Juneya, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:38 .

[Nerivant]

Juneya wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Wearing plate does not imped your combat style! If you must have not armor on the rest of you (for whatever ridiculous reason) a metal breastplate is advisable & does not do anything untoward your movement.

Oy. Let me help you understand something. For this demonstration, I will use Isabella.

Isabella: Do you have any clue how heavy plate armor is? How do you expect me to sneak up on an enemy if I'm lumbering around in plate? And how do you expect my balance not to be thrown off by a sudden twenty pound weight on my chest? Maybe you've never tried it before, but even just a chainmail shirt is ridiculously heavy. You want me to wear that armor? Screw off, Hawke. I won't. What are you going to do about it?


In other words, this conversation of what should be included and what shouldn't is assuming that your companions are mindless drones that will derobe and suit up on your command. I fail to see how that is the more logical choice.

Thank you. I didn't want to type that out.

[Crimson Invictus]

In terms of appearance I can only approve of unique designs; they allow an element of visual expression of character which is something definitely missing from Origins (with the obvious exception of Morrigan.)



I'm also all for seeing what the art team can do.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

But the difference being I can change Morrigan's unique appearance at will, where as in DAII I cannot.

[crimzontearz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

you have a point, I was using awakening only as a fitting example

yet even in MAss Effect 1 and  2 there are several NPCs who are directly your underlines in a paramilitary organization

Miranda is not an underling. She's the Cerberus director of operations sent to help you and look after Cerberus' interests/investments. Her authority on the ship might be less than yours, but within Cerberus itself, she probably has a higher 'rank' than the Commander.

Both Miranda and Jacob are in Cerberus uniforms, however, which is presumably what Cerberus wants them to wear.

I have no problem with Cerberus officers wearing Cerberus uniforms and equipment. The uniforms themselves are problematic. That they wear them in almost vacuums and toxic/hostile environments is groan inducing.

I support the use of visually distinctive outfits for companions, but I also want them to look practical. Even in game, people acknowledge that Miranda's outfit is ridiculous and I'd expect an ex-Alliance biotic to wear light armor.

I understood Morrigan's outfit in Dragon Age. If they had the same system uniform system, I'd want Alistar to wear something like the Templar armor and Oghran to wear distinctively dwarven armor.

if we want to  argue in that direction then Grunt  picked my Shepard as his Battlematser to serve under him (please no Kaiden jokes). Jacob and Miranda both say at the very berginning of the game that they WILL follow Shepard's orders indeed even when miranda thinks something is a stupid idea (waking grunt up....activating legion....sending Vitor back with the flotilla) Shepard can overrule her authority. Are you telling me that if Shepard said "Miranda, start wearing proper armor...this is an order" she would actually mutiny?

now, I agree with you about your last part as I said before.....for instance if this character



was to join the party and she turned out to be a tank I'd have NO problem with her unique outfit because it is practical and it would fit her role

[crimzontearz]

Juneya wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Wearing plate does not imped your combat style! If you must have not armor on the rest of you (for whatever ridiculous reason) a metal breastplate is advisable & does not do anything untoward your movement.

Oy. Let me help you understand something. For this demonstration, I will use Isabella.

Isabella: Do you have any clue how heavy plate armor is? How do you expect me to sneak up on an enemy if I'm lumbering around in plate? And how do you expect my balance not to be thrown off by a sudden twenty pound weight on my chest? Maybe you've never tried it before, but even just a chainmail shirt is ridiculously heavy. You want me to wear that armor? Screw off, Hawke. I won't. What are you going to do about it?


In other words, this conversation of what should be included and what shouldn't is assuming that your companions are mindless drones that will derobe and suit up on your command. I fail to see how that is the more logical choice.


EDIT: Also, if you're using ME2 as a subject to complain about, keep in mind that you're talking about a universe in which vehicles travel faster than light, there is a such thing as element zero, and an intelligent machine race that is having a rave on Isaac Newton's coffin.

LOL sure plate armor is obviously the ONLY armor available in the game right?


also, read the ME1 codex, there is a reason why people wear ablative plating ceramic armor....I'm not about to argue about it

[Crimson Invictus]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...



But the difference being I can change Morrigan's unique appearance at will, where as in DAII I cannot.

I assume you're replying to me? If so, how does that relate to my approval of unique outfits?

[Urazz]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

But why would they take out half of the party customization? They did it with ME2 and people complained. Why are they making the same mistake again when it's obvious that people do want as many customization options as possible?

No, what people complained about was that their companions pretty much didn't wear armor/space suits when in hostile enviroments where a flimsy little gas mask wouldn't offer any protection.  Basically, what was being asked was a second unchangeable outfit but one suited for battle/hostile enviroments.

And you still have a degree of customization over your party members with what weapons they use (what their class/spec allows them to use anyways), rings, neck pieces, etc.  You just couldn't customize their appearance which isn't a bad thing since their looks right now look better than most armor.  The only characters I expect to really wear armor are the warriors really.  Rogues and Mages can get by without really.

Modifié par Urazz, 17 novembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[Bootsykk]

crimzontearz wrote...

...wait a sec.



Is that a templar?! The armor shape is the same, you can see the sword and the flames behind her hands, same basic shape, and the design on the hood is strikingly similair to the design on the bottom of the templar robes...



OMG I think it is!!!