1008 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Khayness wrote...
You know we are just people whom you will never meet, right?

I'm also a person you're never going to meet, but somehow you felt the need to insult me. I'm not seeing a difference.

[Melca36]

Atakuma wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

I never used the "tactical" camera so i really don't care.

Wow - You never used it on PC - That is sort of strange...

Why? I found it unecissary so I didnt use it.

Never used it either. People will survive without it.

[Khayness]

In Exile wrote...

I'm also a person you're never going to meet, but somehow you felt the need to insult me. I'm not seeing a difference

Hi, I'm an @hole, welcome to the internet. And I'd hardly call that an insult.

Melca36 wrote...

Never used it either. People will survive without it.

This doesn't justify that others shouldn't be upset about it being gone.

[Erode_The_Soul]

Melca36 wrote...

Never used it either. People will survive without it.

True, but that doesn't mean we have to be happy about it

[Meltemph]

Yeah, Exile, while that was most likely a joke, the mods and devs have made it clear that those types of comments are not appreciated.

Exile was being trolled, so you point out him insulting/being sarcastic with the troll, as the problem?

[Wicked 702]

Choice good.

...also beer.

[Razgul]

I liked playing with the tactics turned off, so I could control everyone and not have them do anything stupid. Tactical view is pretty damn useful for that. With camera being confined to a character, that might become a bit annoying having to jump between the characters all the time.

Modifié par Razgul, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[bsbcaer]

Realmjumper wrote...

The isometric view is much more than just a camera. I can't see through walls when I open a door in Dragonage: Origins. There might be a dragon behind that door for all I know. Why would I risk sending a party member through when I can nuke the entire room thanks to the tactical view camera.

I can also see how many range, melee, and caster enemies are waiting for me. Like I said earlier it goes back to pen and paper RPGS.

Since this is now gone I have no doubt the gameplay will be tailored to play smoothly with the camera view that the player will have. Does that make the game better though? It's going to be a different type of game, more action oriented that's for sure.

Just a note on your comment on tabletop RPG's.  It seems to me that you must have been playing with a poor GM if he/she would allow you to see how many range/melee/caster enemies waiting for you beyond that which your character can see (then again, I played back in the day with graphing paper and drawing your map as you crawl through the dungeon).  So, if we're to use the tabletop vs. electronic RPG's, it seems like the view that they're talking about goes back to tabletop RPG's moreso than the isometric view...

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

In Exile wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...
Well you have to understand that to a lot of us older PC-centric gamers we feel like our hobby is literally dying.  That is very exaggerated of course, but it feels like that, it feels almost like we are under attack.  For years we had what we consider to be the best RPGs, tactical RPGs with real choice and consequence, 100s of hours of content and real expansions with dozens more.  Mod tools, free additions, long-term support and patching, complex gameplay that rewarded focus and interest rather than simple twitch gameplay.  For people like me RPGs since KotOR, roughly, have been slowly but surely killing off these benefits.  Simplified gameplay, short and over-priced DLC rather than expansions, lack of support, lack of tactics, lack of real choice and consequence, etc. etc..

Here is the thing, and this is something very partial to me.

The games I like are very few. Games like New Vegas, or Baldur's Gate, or Fallout 1/2, with their puppet protagonist, they don't appeal to me. These games ask me to invent a game for me, but they actually make the sort of protagonists I would like (charismatic leaders, social movers, etc.) impossible, because the all of that sort of interaction is left for the imagination of the player.

KoTOR was really a dramatic moment for me, becuase here you had this leader protagonist who was part of the team, who you could become by making choices for, but still had a real role in the story. Jade Empire was the same.

Mass Effect was incredible, because here you had this voiced protagonist, alpha-type leader, who you could still pick & choose and alter the personality for. There was one game that followed up on this: Mass Effect 2.

The Witcher has a living protagonist, but you have no choice. Fixed apperance and fixed gender - that doesn't make me connect to the character. Dragon Age - that took a step back to KoTOR and JE. Alpha Protocol - fixed gender and apperance.

Dragon Age 2 is the third game, ever, that gives me what I want. So I have such a hard time caring when I hear about PC gamers and their tens of 90s era games.

So you like action RPG's, or really more appropiately you perfer limited control over the other members of your party. Which is fine to each their own

. No one would force you to use the isometric camera, but arguing it shouldn't be there for those who actually use it is kinda silly. Why would it bother you if it was there if you're not going to use it anyway?

Again I really don't get the whole actively encouraging removal of choice and I see it happen day in and day out on this forum, its absolutely mind boggling.

[Larryboy_Dragon]

Piecake wrote...

Larryboy_Dragon wrote...

I’m a console gamer, but my game sensibilities are firmly rooted in a history of PC RPG gaming. I wish I could say that I’m not buying into the Dragon Age 2 hype and that I wasn’t going to buy the game – but frankly, even dumbed-down pseudo RPGs are thin on the ground these days. You got to take what you can get.
Mass Effect 2 was a travesty, with RPG elements so weak that they were functionally non-existent. It’s the first Bioware game that I’ve been unable to play a 2nd time through, and the first Bioware game for which I haven’t bought all the addons/expansions.
I think that Bioware’s comments about Dragon Age as a ‘spiritual successor’ to Baldur’s Gate is now seen as the marketing line that it was. I mean, maybe that was the original attention, but Dragon Age 2 is clearly aimed at the mass market and not something that is going to grab BG2 fans.
[snip]

I really dislike such sweeping like these.  And I really am starting to hate the word 'streamlined', what with the negative connotations that this board has infused with it.

Anyways, hopefully the camera doesnt automatically switch to one of your companions if you want to use one of their abilities.  I think that would solve my two seperate rooms issue.  I still think id rather have a full range iso camera though.  Oh well, ill soon find out

You seem to disagree with me, and then say something that is coming from the same viewpoint.

 

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

No one will ever convince me my relationship with Leliana isn't real!

Wait. What do you mean *your* relationship with Leliana? She's mine!

I would have figured Leliana's clothes weren't unique enough for you to relate to her.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:42 .

[Monica83]

Again im not surprised... DA2 will be an Easy Sequel designed and maked to be selled more on console audiences.. The sad thing is that... I'm not thinking console players are stupid so why they can't enjoy a complete title like dragon age originsd in theyr console? DAO its an awesome game and can be played in both ways by console users and pc users... Why make a streamlized sequel? Why ruin a winning formula? Why make a game that seems a sort of mass effect with sword crap animation static companion inventory static classes?... Sorry bioware in past you maded much masterpiece of rpg... This little sequel is disappointing... My fault is this.. From bioware i want much more than a simple Easy Sequel... Only this

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

[quote]CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

[quote]Maria Caliban wrote...

[quote]ErichHartmann wrote...

No one will ever convince me my relationship with Leliana isn't real! [/quote]

Wait. What do you mean *your* relationship with Leliana? She's mine! [/quote]

double post

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:42 .

[Blastback]

Meltemph wrote...

Yeah, Exile, while that was most likely a joke, the mods and devs have made it clear that those types of comments are not appreciated.

Exile was being trolled, so you point out him insulting/being sarcastic with the troll, as the problem?

Two wrongs don't make a right, an eye for an eye leaves the world blind etc.  They shouldn't have gone after In Exile like that, regardless of how silly Alpha may or may not sound (For the record, kinda silly yeah).  He should be able to make his point and have it respected like any other.  But trolling back isn't really any better. They mock him, he insults them, and the next thing we know there is an all out flame war and I'm covered in tapioca and being told to dance a polka. 

[tishyw]

Malanek999 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
You are aware you probably can't do this? Also why would you stop just short of the maximum? Seems a very strange argument.

I didn't exactly pull out a ruler and measure.  The number of times I needed the near-maximum zoom distance during DA:O I could count on one hand, so I'm not terribly concerned.  

But now you can't do it virtually at all. This may be why FF has been moved to insanity only.

Yep, that's my guess too.  If you play as a mage and keep the mage at the back away from the combat, but can't actually pull out and move the camera around enough to see what's going on in the main battle zone, then you're going to cause a lot of friendly fire!

[Gvaz]

I just looked through my screenshots folder for DAO and most of the time my SS were taken at the next to highest zoom, with being in highest zoom (isometric) for tricky positional battles.

Also DAO was easy as hell, what is wrong with you people...? (i may be getting lost in threads here...)

Modifié par GvazElite, 18 novembre 2010 - 03:27 .

[Elite Midget]

Are you really surprised that the game will be dumbed down to grab a bigger market from Console Gamers?



Console Gamers like instant gratification as well as power trips. Long drawn out stories and the such fail to hold short attention spans, nor do they instill the power trip vibes as easily, which results in them being seen as unfun. As a 360 Owner I'm guilty of this as well. It feels good to just pop in a game after work, spend an hour being a badass, than be done for the rest of the day when gaming is conserned.



Look at CoD:BO. It's a power trip full of expensive yet explosive thrills without requireing much thought other than 'shoot the bad guys'. The Story is short, to the point, and very forgettable. The Multi-Player is the same way though it has a system in place to reward those that play longer than others which gives them a sense of superiorty and power over newer gamers. Thus fueling natural egotism, the need to be on top, and the desire to be viewed favorably with your peers.



Face it, Console Gamers are a different breed compared to PC Gamers. The fact that a lot of PC Gamers are older and more tech savvy tends to effect things as well. It also doesn't help that since they're more tech savvy it means that there are more PC Gamers that pirate, or those with the knowledge to pirate, and those that actively try and create cracks for games. Many Console Gamers aren't really aware of the pirateing scene, or are unwilling to bother with it since it requires too much work, and tend to be more ignorant in their expectations for games. While PC Gamers expect a lot from games and are very loud when they're displeased.

[Saibh]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I would have figured Leliana's clothes weren't unique enough for you to relate to her.

How can you wonder that people think you're snide? How is that jab relevant at all? I don't know, maybe you're joking, but it's hard to see it that way.

Modifié par Saibh, 18 novembre 2010 - 03:29 .

[Hollingdale]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

In Exile wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...
Well you have to understand that to a lot of us older PC-centric gamers we feel like our hobby is literally dying.  That is very exaggerated of course, but it feels like that, it feels almost like we are under attack.  For years we had what we consider to be the best RPGs, tactical RPGs with real choice and consequence, 100s of hours of content and real expansions with dozens more.  Mod tools, free additions, long-term support and patching, complex gameplay that rewarded focus and interest rather than simple twitch gameplay.  For people like me RPGs since KotOR, roughly, have been slowly but surely killing off these benefits.  Simplified gameplay, short and over-priced DLC rather than expansions, lack of support, lack of tactics, lack of real choice and consequence, etc. etc..

Here is the thing, and this is something very partial to me.

The games I like are very few. Games like New Vegas, or Baldur's Gate, or Fallout 1/2, with their puppet protagonist, they don't appeal to me. These games ask me to invent a game for me, but they actually make the sort of protagonists I would like (charismatic leaders, social movers, etc.) impossible, because the all of that sort of interaction is left for the imagination of the player.

KoTOR was really a dramatic moment for me, becuase here you had this leader protagonist who was part of the team, who you could become by making choices for, but still had a real role in the story. Jade Empire was the same.

Mass Effect was incredible, because here you had this voiced protagonist, alpha-type leader, who you could still pick & choose and alter the personality for. There was one game that followed up on this: Mass Effect 2.

The Witcher has a living protagonist, but you have no choice. Fixed apperance and fixed gender - that doesn't make me connect to the character. Dragon Age - that took a step back to KoTOR and JE. Alpha Protocol - fixed gender and apperance.

Dragon Age 2 is the third game, ever, that gives me what I want. So I have such a hard time caring when I hear about PC gamers and their tens of 90s era games.

So you like action RPG's, or really more appropiately you perfer limited control over the other members of your party. Which is fine to each their own

. No one would force you to use the isometric camera, but arguing it shouldn't be there for those who actually use it is kinda silly. Why would it bother you if it was there if you're not going to use it anyway?

Again I really don't get the whole actively encouraging removal of choice and I see it happen day in and day out on this forum, its absolutely mind boggling.

He didn't write anything about combat,

Also did you hink about what an isometric camera view means in practice, let alone read the article in the OP? It's not a matter of just excluding it for the sake of pissing of narrowminded PC users they are excluding it because they actually want to create great looking enviroments this time with real backgrounds roofs and skys this time and the isometric view will not work with such features because there would be issues with the camera colliding with roofs etc.

To use a popular phrase: enviroments are severely ''dumbed down'' with an isometri camera view. Frankly it's quite typical of the conservatists on theese boards to think you can just play around with features without having to change the entire game (conversation wheel debattes come to mind).

[Gvaz]

Bioware:



The illusion of choice is more important than actual choice (for most games). This, as well as the illusion of a large world is preferable (for most games).



This of course is in comparison to a game that is railroaded there and back, where there simply is no choice whatsoever.

[ErichHartmann]

Elite Midget wrote...

Are you really surprised that the game will be dumbed down to grab a bigger market from Console Gamers?

Console Gamers like instant gratification as well as power trips. Long drawn out stories and the such fail to hold short attention spans, nor do they instill the power trip vibes as easily, which results in them being seen as unfun. As a 360 Owner I'm guilty of this as well. It feels good to just pop in a game after work, spend an hour being a badass, than be done for the rest of the day when gaming is conserned.

Look at CoD:BO. It's a power trip full of expensive yet explosive thrills without requireing much thought other than 'shoot the bad guys'. The Story is short, to the point, and very forgettable. The Multi-Player is the same way though it has a system in place to reward those that play longer than others which gives them a sense of superiorty and power over newer gamers. Thus fueling natural egotism, the need to be on top, and the desire to be viewed favorably with your peers.

Face it, Console Gamers are a different breed compared to PC Gamers. The fact that a lot of PC Gamers are older and more tech savvy tends to effect things as well. It also doesn't help that since they're more tech savvy it means that there are more PC Gamers that pirate, or those with the knowledge to pirate, and those that actively try and create cracks for games. Many Console Gamers aren't really aware of the pirateing scene, or are unwilling to bother with it since it requires too much work, and tend to be more ignorant in their expectations for games. While PC Gamers expect a lot from games and are very loud when they're displeased.

I've played enough multiplayer PC games to know they are just as bad if not worse than console gamers.  I won't get started on MMORPG regulars.  Some are really nice but some are the rudest players I have ever met (I'm looking at your Warcraft).  It's all relative.  

[SoulRebel_1979]

Disappointing news on the tac camera view, but expected. Played all my battles in tactical view. 

Modifié par SoulRebel_1979, 18 novembre 2010 - 03:45 .

[Elite Midget]

There are similiarities but they are also quite different. With the PC Crowd generally being older also effects the tastes in what type of games will be accepted. Not to mention that they can be very loud... While for Console Gamers if the game is not fun or awesome as soon as you start than they will be turned off to it almost immediatly.

Many of my Console Gamer friends don't seem to understand why I liked Dragon Age or Mass Effect. They complained that it had far too much talking and didn't get straight to the action in a constant basis. Many Developers have lamented about this as well and game development costs has skyrocketed to appease Console Gamers with constant action, little thinking, and amazing graphics. Story can be all but ignored, or really dumb, as long as the game looks fun but requires less talking and more action. Not to mention that the costs of PCs also push younger Gamers and those that aren't that big into gaming anyway to playing on Consoles.

FPSers are constant andrenaline fun the moment you get in a multiplayer match and start scrambling to kill eachother, die, respawn, and repeat. That's why those games are so wildly popular since even the youngest of Gamers can understand the concept of the game without their head hurting.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 18 novembre 2010 - 03:51 .

[In Exile]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

So you like action RPG's, or really more appropiately you perfer limited control over the other members of your party. Which is fine to each their own

Wow, what? No, I don't. I bought DA:O because it had full party control. I'm the guy who hates tactics and controls the entire party. No, I'm not talking about gameplay here. I'm talking about the roleplay. I want a character who is really part of the world, not a blank slate for me to fill in.

I don't want a fixed protagonist like Halo; I want to create my own character. But I don't want a character that my imagination has to fill in either.

And the only game to really get that right is Mass Effect, and even that didn't do it very well. Alpha Protocol tried, but their dialogue system is a mess.

You want to fit me into this narrow box, but that's not the case at all.

No one would force you to use the isometric camera, but arguing it shouldn't be there for those who actually use it is kinda silly. Why would it bother you if it was there if you're not going to use it anyway?

Quote me when I said any of this. What I said was that the isometric view wasn't neccesary to tactics, because we need depth too. That was it.

Again I really don't get the whole actively encouraging removal of choice and I see it happen day in and day out on this forum, its absolutely mind boggling.

Choice is a cost. If I don't want the choice, but want some other feature, then I'm going to argue against it. Let's say I love loot, but hate romances. I'm going to argue to cut romances and design another armour mesh. Becuase it gives me +1 feature I like and -1 feature I hate. 

As it turns out I like romances and hate loot, but the point is that choice has a cost - resources, which could be put to better use elsewhere (if you don't want the choice).

No one is going around saying "I think we have too much content in games! Give me 40% less content for 60% more cost! I want a 3 hour game that costs $100!"

[In Exile]

Elite Midget wrote..
Many of my Console Gamer friends don't seem to understand why I liked Dragon Age or Mass Effect. They complained that it had far too much talking and didn't get straight to the action in a constant basis.
.

So here's a little bit of irony. Mass Effect is too complex for console gamers? This is something I always find funny on this forum - people act as if Mass Effect means Bioware isn't a niche company designing niche games.