1008 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

If the "more choice is always better" crowd were game developers, their games would never be released and their development houses shut down. Lots of people I argue with are part of this group.

If the "only my choices should be represented" crowd were game developers, their games wouldn't sell very many copies and their development houses shut down. I am part of this group.

It's a good thing neither group are developers, or we - the customers - wouldn't get games that even resemble the ones we want to play, let alone perfectly accommodate our preferences.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 novembre 2010 - 04:04 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Can you give me an example? I can't think of a case. For example, in the Korcari Wilds, the darkspawn archers you can just click and highlight so long as they are within the right distance cone.

Any environment where there was a raised platform with enemies on it that you could approach on a side with no accessible ramp.

Specific examples would be the Zevran ambush map (Zev's archers were on raised platforms), the Wynne spirit power map (the Hurlock Emissary was on a raised platform), and the map where you confront that travelling con-man who sold forged books to circle mages (his mage minion was on a raised platform).

[Gvaz]

So because a game is mind numbing, it's good? I can agree with respect to WoW, but a real game like an RPG??

[Blastback]

The thing that worries me is the more simplified leveling system. And the lack of being able to customise companion outfits. the camera sounds okay to me, I never used it to look around corners or anything. It mostly was a nostalgia thing.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Any environment where there was a raised platform with enemies on it that you could approach on a side with no accessible ramp.

Specific examples would be the Zevran ambush map (Zev's archers were on raised platforms), the Wynne spirit power map (the Hurlock Emissary was on a raised platform), and the map where you confront that travelling con-man who sold forged books to circle mages (his mage minion was on a raised platform).

You have the AoE cone, though. That lets you see who is being targeted by the attack. As I recall, glyphs don't actually take height into account (in terms of the glyph combo; actual glyphs you can just target).

[Blastback]

In Exile wrote...

Elite Midget wrote..
Many of my Console Gamer friends don't seem to understand why I liked Dragon Age or Mass Effect. They complained that it had far too much talking and didn't get straight to the action in a constant basis.
.

So here's a little bit of irony. Mass Effect is too complex for console gamers? This is something I always find funny on this forum - people act as if Mass Effect means Bioware isn't a niche company designing niche games.

I think it's less complexity and more a lack of intrest in the focus on charater interaction and narrative.  Bioware focuses on games as a medium of storytelling.  Some gamers just want to blow things up.  Both are valid.

[Elite Midget]

You can't blame Bioware for wanting the biggest slice of the pie. They're a developer and they have those that have a hand in their investments. Those people 'really' like money and streamlining DA mean more money will come since it'll appeal to a larger crowd.

[Bryy_Miller]

GvazElite wrote...

So because a game is mind numbing, it's good? I can agree with respect to WoW, but a real game like an RPG??

All games are "real" games.

[Elite Midget]

Indeed... Even Kinect, Move, and Wiiremote games are real games. Hence the word 'games'.

[IRMcGhee]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Any environment where there was a raised platform with enemies on it that you could approach on a side with no accessible ramp.

Specific examples would be the Zevran ambush map (Zev's archers were on raised platforms), the Wynne spirit power map (the Hurlock Emissary was on a raised platform), and the map where you confront that travelling con-man who sold forged books to circle mages (his mage minion was on a raised platform).

You have the AoE cone, though. That lets you see who is being targeted by the attack. As I recall, glyphs don't actually take height into account (in terms of the glyph combo; actual glyphs you can just target).

You can also tilt the camera upwards, even from OTS view, allowing you to target elevated enemies.

[Blastback]

Now you guys have got me trying to think of a game that isn't a real game.



Curse you! *Shakes fist*

[upsettingshorts]

Blastback wrote...

Now you guys have got me trying to think of a game that isn't a real game.

Slot machines.  

[Piecake]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Can you give me an example? I can't think of a case. For example, in the Korcari Wilds, the darkspawn archers you can just click and highlight so long as they are within the right distance cone.

Any environment where there was a raised platform with enemies on it that you could approach on a side with no accessible ramp.

Specific examples would be the Zevran ambush map (Zev's archers were on raised platforms), the Wynne spirit power map (the Hurlock Emissary was on a raised platform), and the map where you confront that travelling con-man who sold forged books to circle mages (his mage minion was on a raised platform).

The Redcliffe courtyard battle with the super vial darkspawn (forgot name) and the archers on the stairs near the door was extremely annoying with the camera.  Now, maybe my tactics/positiong werent the best or just awful, but where i was I had a ton of trouble targeting the archers with either camera.  I was cursing the game for not having a free moving iso camera there.  Not to mention that i remember the gate getting in the way of the camera and just making everything wonky.

[In Exile]

Piecake wrote...
The Redcliffe courtyard battle with the super vial darkspawn (forgot name) and the archers on the stairs near the door was extremely annoying with the camera.  Now, maybe my tactics/positiong werent the best or just awful, but where i was I had a ton of trouble targeting the archers with either camera.  I was cursing the game for not having a free moving iso camera there.  Not to mention that i remember the gate getting in the way of the camera and just making everything wonky.

I can't remember where right now, but there is one place in DA:O that sometimes makes the isometric camera just go nuts. I think it happens when you go under arches and it tries to zoom out way too high, but I'm not sure.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

In Exile wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

So you like action RPG's, or really more appropiately you perfer limited control over the other members of your party. Which is fine to each their own

Wow, what? No, I don't. I bought DA:O because it had full party control. I'm the guy who hates tactics and controls the entire party. No, I'm not talking about gameplay here. I'm talking about the roleplay. I want a character who is really part of the world, not a blank slate for me to fill in.

I don't want a fixed protagonist like Halo; I want to create my own character. But I don't want a character that my imagination has to fill in either.

And the only game to really get that right is Mass Effect, and even that didn't do it very well. Alpha Protocol tried, but their dialogue system is a mess.

You want to fit me into this narrow box, but that's not the case at all.

No one would force you to use the isometric camera, but arguing it shouldn't be there for those who actually use it is kinda silly. Why would it bother you if it was there if you're not going to use it anyway?

Quote me when I said any of this. What I said was that the isometric view wasn't neccesary to tactics, because we need depth too. That was it.

Again I really don't get the whole actively encouraging removal of choice and I see it happen day in and day out on this forum, its absolutely mind boggling.

Choice is a cost. If I don't want the choice, but want some other feature, then I'm going to argue against it. Let's say I love loot, but hate romances. I'm going to argue to cut romances and design another armour mesh. Becuase it gives me +1 feature I like and -1 feature I hate. 

As it turns out I like romances and hate loot, but the point is that choice has a cost - resources, which could be put to better use elsewhere (if you don't want the choice).

No one is going around saying "I think we have too much content in games! Give me 40% less content for 60% more cost! I want a 3 hour game that costs $100!"

Basically it sounds like you want your cake and you want to eat it too. And I thought I was picky. You want to create a character, but have the game writers read your mind and flesh out said character for you. That alone is a tough call. Honestly I don't consider set protagonists my own at all. Shepard never really felt like mine, mostly due to guessing at dialog that paraphrasing and voice overs bring to the table.

But then again I enjoy actively roleplaying even if it includes a little off screen imagination on my part, so obviously YMMV.

As for the camera remark, I'm actually sorry, I was reading posts too quickly and mistook someone elses comment on the camera controls for you.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If the "more choice is always better" crowd were game developers, their games would never be released and their development houses shut down. Lots of people I argue with are part of this group.

If the "only my choices should be represented" crowd were game developers, their games wouldn't sell very many copies and their development houses shut down. I am part of this group.

It's a good thing neither group are developers, or we - the customers - wouldn't get games that even resemble the ones we want to play, let alone perfectly accommodate our preferences.

Its not so much asking for more more more, its asking them not to strip things out that were already there to dumb the game down.

[Ulous]

I do sometimes find it strange how people comment on how only PC gamers can be old Bioware fans, I mean KOTOR is over 7 years old now, if console gamers bought that game and every Bioware game on console since then i'd say they are as much a fan of Bioware and ultimately RPG's as much as anyone else.

[Darthnemesis2]

Ulous wrote...

I do sometimes find it strange how people comment on how only PC gamers can be old Bioware fans, I mean KOTOR is over 7 years old now, if console gamers bought that game and every Bioware game on console since then i'd say they are as much a fan of Bioware and ultimately RPG's as much as anyone else.

What he ^ said

[PsychoBlonde]

Eleinehmm wrote...

According to the article there is an "option to zoom the camera out, just not up. Console gamers won't get that."

Who the hell need to zoom it out ?

Mike Laidlaw talked about this in the podcast, I believe.  (Or elsewhere.)  They changed the angle a bit so that you can see more of the battlefield in a given direction when you're zoomed out so you don't have to scroll around so much to get to the enemies you want to target.

[MerinTB]

Kevin Lynch wrote...
I agree. The tactical overhead view is something I always used in DA:O and I'll definitely miss it if I play DA2. It's been a fact that the faster and more close-up that combat gets in games, the less interested I am in replaying them. I can see me still playing DA:O even with DA2 released, as a result.

Ditto.

This, alone, is almost a game breaker for me.

Maybe some modders out there will do for DA2 what they did for F:NV and give me this view.

Because it really does matter to me an awful lot.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

So you like action RPG's, or really more appropiately you perfer limited control over the other members of your party. Which is fine to each their own

Wow, what? No, I don't. I bought DA:O because it had full party control. I'm the guy who hates tactics and controls the entire party. No, I'm not talking about gameplay here. I'm talking about the roleplay. I want a character who is really part of the world, not a blank slate for me to fill in.

Maybe Sarah was confusing you with me?

[Firky]

MerinTB wrote...
Ditto.

This, alone, is almost a game breaker for me.

Maybe some modders out there will do for DA2 what they did for F:NV and give me this view.

Because it really does matter to me an awful lot.

+1 No tactical view would be the only potential dealbreaker for me too. (Potential.) The important part for me is that the player can still see the entire party and most of the battle, most of the time. (But I did tend to spread everyone out in Origins anyway.) I believe this will be the case.

Hey. Can anyone enlighten me as to why the writer said " the PC game won't be made separately this time". Aren't they developing this on the 3 platforms concurrently? 

[MerinTB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Bioware is betting people will adapt.  They'll be right about most people who loved the isometric camera.  Luddites who can't possibly imagine that a zoomed out third person view will give them an idea of the battle situation are beyond hope as it is.  

Ok.

So now I'm anti-technology because I hate FP POV in games and strongly dislike TP POV?

I'm a luddite for prefering an isometric view, and wanting my party-based cRPGs to have top down, free-moving camera views?

My preference is worthy of insult?

Luddite?  Really?

Why is "PC elitism" always nipped in the bud but nothing is done about the insults to gamers over the age of thirty?

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

Piecake wrote...
The Redcliffe courtyard battle with the super vial darkspawn (forgot name) and the archers on the stairs near the door was extremely annoying with the camera.  Now, maybe my tactics/positiong werent the best or just awful, but where i was I had a ton of trouble targeting the archers with either camera.  I was cursing the game for not having a free moving iso camera there.  Not to mention that i remember the gate getting in the way of the camera and just making everything wonky.

I can't remember where right now, but there is one place in DA:O that sometimes makes the isometric camera just go nuts. I think it happens when you go under arches and it tries to zoom out way too high, but I'm not sure.

I remember the iso camera failing in the final battle --it couldn't manage the height transitions properly. It didn't bother me much since I'm not a huge fan of iso anyway, but it was very noticeable.

[MerinTB]

Apollo Starflare wrote...
I look at some of the reaction here and I wonder how people reacted when info about Jade Empire started to come out? That was when Bioware were 'uncorrupted' wasn't it? But it followed so closely to their RPG roots in every sense?

Jade Empire sold poorly.

I, personally, barely finished one playthrough and there was MUCH in the game as far as changes that I hated.  I coasted to the end because it was a BIoWare game and I held my nose to finish the story.

So there's one response for you.

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:52 .