1008 réponses à ce sujet

[Meltemph]

Oh yea calling a portion of the userbase that has a particular preference for something he hates names and tossing in an age dig there as well is certainly neutral. Its eye roll inducing how much you guys whine about snark and PC elitism, yet its ok to make thinly veiled digs towards others. Perfect example of hello pot meet kettle going on.

So you like being able to say what you want and act like you want, but everyone needs to treat you proper? I have no issues with snarky at all, as you know, but when it seems the people being snarky can't handle any back... well it just gets annoying, due the whining of "being mean".



As for Epler, You guys really need to add a discourse/debate forum much like Penny-Arcade, that way, you can be more restrictive with modding here, but at the same time allow people to still voice their opinions.



That way, DA2 can be about discussing DA2 on this forum and argue on the other forum.

[Adanu]

JohnEpler wrote...

Continue with the PC elitism at your own risk.

Enjoying games (that's right, they are games, we are not talking about microsurgery) on one platform versus another does not mark you as being of superior intellect and/or taste.

If you want to continue to pretend that it does, you won't be doing it on these forums. I'm tired of this elitist garbage.

Some of us like the PC more and think consoles are dumbed down garbage for a reason. Elitism is not the same thing as having an opinion you don't like.

[nightcobra]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

You
must have some real self-esteem issues, stop taking every argument on
the internet as a personal attack on your character.

Please,
get off your stepstool. Angrypants is one of those "you guys are just
PC elitist ahole posters, think of the console users!"  and Merrin
called him on it. Gotta love the double standard around here.

I think Shorts' arsenal of argumentation techniques is a bit more advanced than the "Just throw around insults and ad hominem attacks". Whether you agree with what he has to say or not, you have to realise that his posts are well-thought out and generally quite neutral (unless he explicitly says he is being biased in some fashion). You, and others, are just looking "between the lines" for things that simply don't exist.

Also, why did this thread get a sticky?

Oh yea calling  a portion of the userbase that has a particular preference for something he hates names and tossing in an age dig there as well is certainly neutral. Its eye roll inducing how much you guys whine about snark and PC elitism, yet its ok to make thinly veiled digs towards others. Perfect example of hello pot meet kettle going on.

from what i've read in the forums since DA2 was announced, i have to say that your posts around the forum are in fact one of most hateful against console players and anyone liking the new direction by using derogatory terms against anyone who likes/prefers to play on consoles, stating that we are 12 yr old brats who don't know any better regardless of our age, that we are sheep for liking some of the changes disregarding whatever say we have in the matter, using insults to anyone who agrees with DA2's direction isn't the way to go.
some console players are also guilty of the same thing against pc players.
pc and consoles while having technical differences, are in no way superior/inferior to each other, it's all just a matter of preference. 
 
ps: *stepping out of the neutral border*, you say for us to get of our high horse, i say you get off from the top of your ivory tower (if i'm guitly of being biased against something, it's to users like you who think they can spurn insults to anyone who doesn't agree with you) *rant over*

[Leonia]

I think Epler has laid the law down here, time for us to respect that dudes and dudettes. Let's let the PC v. Console debate die once and for all. At the very least, think of my liver *points to her profile*

[-Skorpious-]

leonia42 wrote...

I think Epler has laid the law down here, time for us to respect that dudes and dudettes. Let's let the PC v. Console debate die once and for all. At the very least, think of my liver *points to her profile*

Exactly. I appreciate the fact that Bioware developers SPEND THEIR OWN PERSONAL FREE TIME looking to address the concerns of the community. Let's not ruin this priviledge please.

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 18 novembre 2010 - 04:56 .

[nightcobra]

leonia42 wrote...

I think Epler has laid the law down here, time for us to respect that dudes and dudettes. Let's let the PC v. Console debate die once and for all. At the very least, think of my liver *points to her profile*

pretty much, i was writing my rant at the time john epler wrote that so i didn't see it. even if someone calls me out i won't answer and add more to the fire out of respect for epler's wishes for a decent thread.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 18 novembre 2010 - 04:57 .

[upsettingshorts]

I said the feature was a dinosaur, not the people making the argument.  I was referring to the fact that it allowed - in games like Baldur's Gate - to give the illusion of a 3D environment to 2D visuals.  Hence my statement.

I said the people making the very specific argument that the isometric camera is absolutely necessary for tactical gameplay were either simply misinformed, have a cult-like love for a feature that transcends rational thought, or because they are part of the "change is bad" camp of luddites who seem beyond hope.  There's plenty of room for disagreement here, but I'm absolutely not going to take someone's word for it along the lines of, "Uh yes it is." 

I also said, and this is the key part, that those who simply preferred the isometric camera to a zoomed out third person camera but didn't go so far as to claim that tactical gameplay was impossible with the latter were perfectly reasonable even if I disagree with them.

The idea that I was implying anyone who likes the isometric camera has to be some kind of crotchety, silly old man is ludicrous - the games that used them are barely a decade old.

MerinTB didn't call me out. He (deliberately or not) radically altered my argument and then attacked what he presumed it was. His first post claims that I was making some kind of first person camera argument, which ignores the fact the example I cited was from the PC-exclusive, free roam camera Total War series. He goes on to criticize the notion that I thought people who simply had a preference for the top down camera were the ones I was attacking - a group I specifically excluded.  Then threw in some comment about how I was attacking "old" people.

The reason Merin's posts came off as thin-skinned and defensive is that he read what we assumed I meant and took it as a series of personal insults, not what I actually said.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Dave of Canada]

Adanu wrote...

Some of us like the PC more and think consoles are dumbed down garbage for a reason. Elitism is not the same thing as having an opinion you don't like.

And if you wish to share said opinion, don't. This is a preview thread about Dragon Age 2, not about consoles being garbage, computers being amazing or who is superior than who. I'd like to keep it that way.


This doesn't apply only to you but everybody.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:03 .

[John Epler]

Whole lot of warnings and bans handed out.



Keep up the platform wars (fought from either side) at your own risk.



Now if you'll excuse me, I have a game to make!

[Fraevar]

FedericoV wrote...

Because what works on Consolle works as well on PC, while the opposite is not true (I mean, even badly ported game can be played with a controller on the PC). Bioware is developing a multiplatform title. Then, devs have to consider the "limitation" of consolle in term of hardware and controll (if compared to PC... not a judgement or consolle war, I think that it's fair and objective to admit that consolle are limited in term of gameplay options if compared with PCs).

Bioware cannot develop 2 or 3 games in one or develop a game in the middle of what works best for each platofrm (or they would develop another game with the contraddictions of DA:O). So, being a PC game myself, I sympathize with your positions but I even understand Bioware's choices. It's better to develop a game that do some thing very well, than develop a game that do too many things in a weak way.

I'm sorry but I have to respond to your first statement. No, it doesn't. Just because a PC *can* run anything you can make on a console does not mean it will "work" as well when you translate it into actual gameplay. Example. Mass Effect 2's menus "work" fine in that you can see what they say on PC, but when you click them and try to scroll with your mousewheel and you find that you cannot because there is no scrollwheel on the 360 controller that is a problem.

Developers these days *are* adapting the mindset that hey, one size fits all and I think it is completely false. What makes a good console game does not necessarily make a good PC game. As every DA:O reviewer pointed out, the true success of Dragon Age: Origins was that BioWare, for the first time since KotOR finally managed to make a game that felt at home on the PC. Is it cost-effective for BioWare to just do one base-version and port it? Sure it is, but that doesn't mean it's the way to actually make a game good on the other platform.

The fact that they are lying through their teeth at worst or just attempting to hide the facts when it comes to how much they've limited their design to accomodate the consoles and then just force those limitations on PC gamers doesn't make anything any better. *Every* single thing we've seen of DA2 so far has, in some form or another been taking away features that many PC gamers and reviewers loved about Origins, in favor of the "streamlined" console approach. That's fact, not fiction.

I don't hate people for the platform choice...ok, maybe I do hate the obnoxious Halo/COD crowd a little bit, but I suspect I would if they were on PC as well. I do dislike it when developers consistently default to the lowest common denominator in every design decision and impose artifical restrictions on *my* gaming platform of choice.

/rant

Modifié par Delerius_Jedi, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[JamieCOTC]

By catering to the more reckless of those playing styles, the designers were forced to make the game's difficulty fairly low. Making all players play from some sort of from-the-rear camera view alleviates that. But! PC gamers, your version will include a special option to zoom the camera out, just not up.

That's one confirmed nail in the coffin. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[upsettingshorts]

JamieCOTC wrote...
That's one confirmed nail in the coffin. 

Why?  It just means play on Nightmare...

[JamieCOTC]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...
That's one confirmed nail in the coffin. 

Why?  It just means play on Nightmare...

It's not just that, but I was speaking also of the "top down mode" being gone.  For whatever  reason, they are taking out one of my favorite aspects of the game and so it's a nail in the coffin.  Maybe zooming out will make up for it. We'll see. 

[Brockololly]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

The fact that they are lying through their teeth at worst or just attempting to hide the facts when it comes to how much they've limited their design to accomodate the consoles and then just force those limitations on PC gamers doesn't make anything any better. *Every* single thing we've seen of DA2 so far has, in some form or another been taking away features that many PC gamers and reviewers loved about Origins, in favor of the "streamlined" console approach. That's fact, not fiction.

Exactly. We haven't seen one single thing on how the features that were present on the PC in Origins are even being preserved for DA2, let alone improved ( outside of the GUI). Even if they got rid of the iso cam but added some extra Total War style free roam ability that would be fine. As it stands it seems we're just getting a scaled back version of Origins camera. What bothers me most about this is that the iso camera was a very well received feature on PC Origins, one which most reviewers praised. And they're getting rid of it and not replacing it with anything, because apparently, as the Kotaku article mentions, the ceilings will be so damn crucial in DA2.

I'll wait and see some PC gameplay, but its telling when PC exclusive features like the tactical cam and the toolset are being axed, while the console gains features. How exactly is BioWare working to improve the PC version? I have yet to hear how its actually taking advantage of what the PC platform can do, beyond retaining the PC GUI from Origins. What works on the consoles might *work* on the PC but it sure as hell isn't making the most of the PC.

Delerius_Jedi wrote...
I don't hate people for the platform choice...ok, maybe I do hate the obnoxious Halo/COD crowd a little bit, but I suspect I would if they were on PC as well. I do dislike it when developers consistently default to the lowest common denominator in every design decision and impose artifical restrictions on *my* gaming platform of choice.

Amen.

I have nothing against the console version of DA2 being better than the console version of Origins. Thats fantastic. I have a problem when the PC version of DA2 seems to getting neutered  and given the "eh, good enough" treatment.

For an analogy, say you have a fully furnished, yet small apartment. You're happy, its fully furnished and decked out. But then you decide to move to a larger house. Well you take all that furniture with you, but you know what? The furniture that fully took advantage of the space in your small apartment no longer fully takes up your new home! Thats what happens when you develop with consoles first and move to the PC- unless you "buy more furniture to fill up you new home" you're left with something that may be functional, but it sure as hell isn't making the most of things. And I haven't seen or read anything on how DA2 on PC will be better suited for the platform than Origins, only how things are being scaled back to put it on parity with the consoles.

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:49 .

[lrrose]

I was under the impression that the difficulty statement applied to Origins and that the features being added to DA2's console versions are mostly features that were in the PC version of Origins.

Modifié par lrrose, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:51 .

[MerinTB]

I'll just let Delerius_Jedi and Brockololly post for me in this thread from now on.

[Martanek]

No tactical view on the PC? I do not get why everyone is so surprised. DA2 has obviously set out on a different path than its predecessor – for a different market segment. They are shifting the new DA game towards more popular audiences and moving it away from traditional BG-styled games. The sad truth is that Bioware seems not to care about their old fans anymore.

[lrrose]

Martanek wrote...

No tactical view on the PC? I do not get why everyone is so surprised. DA2 has obviously set out on a different path than its predecessor – for a different market segment. They are shifting the new DA game towards more popular audiences and moving it away from traditional BG-styled games. The sad truth is that Bioware seems not to care about their old fans anymore.

But aside from the lack of tactical camera, the battle system is exactly the same.

[Ryzaki]

Gah I hated aiming without using tactical camera. Why BW why? My favorite feature of the game...gone.



Please let someone make a mod for it. D:

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

Brockololly wrote...

I have nothing against the console version of DA2 being better than the console version of Origins. Thats fantastic. I have a problem when the PC version of DA2 seems to getting neutered  and given the "eh, good enough" treatment.

For an analogy, say you have a fully furnished, yet small apartment. You're happy, its fully furnished and decked out. But then you decide to move to a larger house. Well you take all that furniture with you, but you know what? The furniture that fully took advantage of the space in your small apartment no longer fully takes up your new home! Thats what happens when you develop with consoles first and move to the PC- unless you "buy more furniture to fill up you new home" you're left with something that may be functional, but it sure as hell isn't making the most of things. And I haven't seen or read anything on how DA2 on PC will be better suited for the platform than Origins, only how things are being scaled back to put it on parity with the consoles.

even if I'm all for the console oriented changes that bioware have been showing lately...I think every one can sympathize with this... whether you are on consoles or on PC. if only all pc gamers can express themselves this way, minus the bitterness.

[lrrose]

Could someone please tell me how DA2 PC version is being scaled back to match the consoles? The lack of iso view seems to be more of an aesthetic choice.

[Xewaka]

Olivier_dehFanboy wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I have nothing against the console version of DA2 being better than the console version of Origins. Thats fantastic. I have a problem when the PC version of DA2 seems to getting neutered  and given the "eh, good enough" treatment.

For an analogy, say you have a fully furnished, yet small apartment. You're happy, its fully furnished and decked out. But then you decide to move to a larger house. Well you take all that furniture with you, but you know what? The furniture that fully took advantage of the space in your small apartment no longer fully takes up your new home! Thats what happens when you develop with consoles first and move to the PC- unless you "buy more furniture to fill up you new home" you're left with something that may be functional, but it sure as hell isn't making the most of things. And I haven't seen or read anything on how DA2 on PC will be better suited for the platform than Origins, only how things are being scaled back to put it on parity with the consoles.

even if I'm all for the console oriented changes that bioware have been showing lately...I think every one can sympathize with this... whether you are on consoles or on PC. if only all pc gamers can express themselves this way, minus the bitterness.

Bitterness comes with the package. We PC gamers are a jaded bunch.

[John Epler]

Olivier_dehFanboy wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

I have nothing against the console version of DA2 being better than the console version of Origins. Thats fantastic. I have a problem when the PC version of DA2 seems to getting neutered  and given the "eh, good enough" treatment.

For an analogy, say you have a fully furnished, yet small apartment. You're happy, its fully furnished and decked out. But then you decide to move to a larger house. Well you take all that furniture with you, but you know what? The furniture that fully took advantage of the space in your small apartment no longer fully takes up your new home! Thats what happens when you develop with consoles first and move to the PC- unless you "buy more furniture to fill up you new home" you're left with something that may be functional, but it sure as hell isn't making the most of things. And I haven't seen or read anything on how DA2 on PC will be better suited for the platform than Origins, only how things are being scaled back to put it on parity with the consoles.

even if I'm all for the console oriented changes that bioware have been showing lately...I think every one can sympathize with this... whether you are on consoles or on PC. if only all pc gamers can express themselves this way, minus the bitterness.

Quite so. While I don't necessarily agree with all of Brockolollly's points, that was an excellent and insightful post. Go to my stable, Brockololly! Take my finest steed! He is yours.

[Meltemph]

What bothers me most about this is that the iso camera was a very well received feature on PC Origins, one which most reviewers praised.

I just skimmed through, what had to be about 20 reviews and only found 2 that actively praised the iso camera, the rest of them if they talked about the camera, talked about either how bogged down it got or how the camera was annoying to position. So maybe the reviewers you personally pay attention to praised it, but by enlarge, I would not say that was the case.

[ErichHartmann]

I must be a lone wolf among PC gamers. My nostalgia for the 1980s and 90s doesn't hinder my appreciation for "evolution" in gaming or a developers right to control their own vision. I have played more than enough RPGs over the years to know certain design choices are not absolutely necessary. Until I play DAII for myself, it's impossible to say how I feel about losing the top view camera.