1008 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

JohnEpler wrote...

Quite so. While I don't necessarily agree with all of Brockolollly's points, that was an excellent and insightful post. Go to my stable, Brockololly! Take my finest steed! He is yours.

Sweeeeeeet. *Flys away on a robotic griffin of awesomeness*

[Monica83]

And its sad of see how a world of roleplay like dragon age with huge potentiale is forced to be streamlized.... A total Waste of potential

[Estel78]

Martanek wrote...

The sad truth is that Bioware seems not to care about their old fans anymore.

I'm an old fan. I approve of what they do. Times move on, what's popular in game mechanics change, try to move on as well, broaden your horizon. Or don't, it's your choice.

[Malanek]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Just to illustrate some points about the camera consider the following situations all taken from the same point
In the first one Wynne needs to heal a knight...but which one?

The point is that the tactical camera provides much better control and more information in many situations. It isn't a minor feature to lose, in origins I used a combination of the cameras all the time.

I get that, but it's not as if the locked isometric camera is the only angle provided to you in DA:O that would allow you to see which knight to heal.  The arguments in this thread often seem to be framed in the sense that in such situations, zooming out to max distance is the only way to get a good look, and I'm disputing that it's that necessary - not that it isn't useful.

You seem to be under the impression that the camera will allow you to do something similar. I'm not convinced, we have now been told it does not move up! And is attached to the character. I was holding back on this and giving Bioware the benefit of the doubt because earlier Mike said they were still working on it and he liked the idea of detaching it. Should I wait before I actually get a chance to use it to make sure I am not jumping to conclusions? Possibly. But the camera is an extremely important part of the gameplay. Games with crappy cameras are irritating.

Bioware are not going to come up with an unplayable game but what I suspect is happening is that they have pulled back freindly fire and cut down many of the AOE spells so that the game plays well with the camera they are using for the PC game and the consol game. I can understand the decision but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Monica83]

I never understeand how someone can approve the total rape they are make to a game with dragon age...Anyways i respect your opinion

[Cutlasskiwi]

Marionetten wrote...

Yellow Words wrote...

Agreed. Not every BioWare game needs to play the same way.

And turning Dragon Age into Mass Effect is going to solve this how?

We had a nice thing going on here with Mass Effect catering to one part of the community while Dragon Age catered to another. Now everything is being homogenized for the sake of sales. I fail to understand how this is a good thing.

I don't thing DA2 will play like Mass Effect. I have always seen ME as more action oriented than DA:O, but I'm not surprised when people use words like action to describe DA:O. 

And I don't think it's fair to draw the line like that. There are plenty of people who enjoyed both Mass Effect and DA:O.  

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I enjoyed both but I'd rather wish they remained very different from each other. If I wanted to play Mass Effect...I'd play mass effect.

Between the voiced PC and the no tactical camera...this is looking more and more like a pass.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Ziggeh]

Monica83 wrote...

I never understeand how someone can approve the total rape they are make to a game with dragon age...Anyways i respect your opinion

Meaningless rhetoric is not increasing the strength of your case.

[erock75]

@Malanek999 - That's a really good example of why the tactical camera is so useful. There's a ton more examples just like that. I used the tactical camera about 50% of the time in DAO and really enjoy playing from that perspective (reminds me of BG2). I haven't been bothered by many of the changes coming to DA2 so far, but now that the limited camera has been confirmed for the PC... I really don't know if I'm going to get DA2 anymore.



I'm more bummed out by this than I thought I'd be

[JamieCOTC]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Just to illustrate some points about the camera consider the following situations all taken from the same point
In the first one Wynne needs to heal a knight...but which one?

The point is that the tactical camera provides much better control and more information in many situations. It isn't a minor feature to lose, in origins I used a combination of the cameras all the time.

I get that, but it's not as if the locked isometric camera is the only angle provided to you in DA:O that would allow you to see which knight to heal.  The arguments in this thread often seem to be framed in the sense that in such situations, zooming out to max distance is the only way to get a good look, and I'm disputing that it's that necessary - not that it isn't useful.

A rearview mirror in a car isn't necessary either, not while you have side mirrors, but it makes things a hell of a lot better. 

[Merci357]

Marionetten wrote...

Yellow Words wrote...

Agreed. Not every BioWare game needs to play the same way.

And turning Dragon Age into Mass Effect is going to solve this how?

We had a nice thing going on here with Mass Effect catering to one part of the community while Dragon Age catered to another. Now everything is being homogenized for the sake of sales. I fail to understand how this is a good thing.

So I'm different parts of the community, at the same time? I agree that catering to different audiences is a good thing. But in my view the intersection between people that like ME2 (or ME, or JE) as well as DA (or NWN, or KotOR) is quite huge.

[Estel78]

JamieCOTC wrote...

It's not just that, but I was speaking also of the "top down mode" being gone.  For whatever  reason, they are taking out one of my favorite aspects of the game and so it's a nail in the coffin.  Maybe zooming out will make up for it. We'll see. 

Sometimes i feel some people are playing for the wrong reasons. Not specifically you (at least you still want to try it out) but there are those that throw a fit and write the game off because they friggin' can't zoom the camera out as much as they used to. Everytime i'm like what the hell?! Don't be ridiculous! I don't really care about the play mechanics, i trust Bioware that they'll be at least decent and perfectly playable, what's important to me are story, characters, choices, reactivity of the world and yes, a nice cinematic presentation.

[KhorinShizucor]

Monica83 wrote...

I never understeand how someone can approve the total rape they are make to a game with dragon age...Anyways i respect your opinion

Some people actually don't mind change, especially if some perceive changes to be improvements or preferences.

[Ryzaki]

Estel78 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

It's not just that, but I was speaking also of the "top down mode" being gone.  For whatever  reason, they are taking out one of my favorite aspects of the game and so it's a nail in the coffin.  Maybe zooming out will make up for it. We'll see. 

Sometimes i feel some people are playing for the wrong reasons. Not specifically you (at least you still want to try it out) but there are those that throw a fit and write the game off because they friggin' can't zoom the camera out as much as they used to. Everytime i'm like what the hell?! Don't be ridiculous! I don't really care about the play mechanics, i trust Bioware that they'll be at least decent and perfectly playable, what's important to me are story, characters, choices, reactivity of the world and yes, a nice cinematic presentation.

...So...because you play the game for one thing people shouldn't play it for another?

And I hate cinematic presentaton. I get enough of it with JRPGs.

Choices, characters and how the world reacts are nice things indeed but most of the choices tend to be artifical anyways, the characters are (mostly) great and the world reacts in a rather meh way from what I've seen.

And before I even hear it yes I consider choices that are vastly different in one game ending up leading to the same place in the sequel to be artifical.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[Estel78]

Ryzaki wrote...

...So...because you play the game for one thing people shouldn't play it for another?

No but if you play something for the "real time strategy" to the point that you don't play if it doesn't have that then maybe you should play real time strategies.

[Malanek]

KhorinShizucor wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

I never understeand how someone can approve the total rape they are make to a game with dragon age...Anyways i respect your opinion

Some people actually don't mind change, especially if some perceive changes to be improvements or preferences.

Exactly. I don't mind change either....if it is an improvement. I thought ME2 was vastly better than ME1 in almost every way (except the main plot wasn't really advanced). But this is not an improvement. I like about 50% of what I have heard for DA2 and dislike about 50%. This isn't going to stop me getting the game but I want party based Diablo with pause and a story, not party based Fable.

[Ryzaki]

Estel78 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...So...because you play the game for one thing people shouldn't play it for another?

No but if you play something for the "real time strategy" to the point that you don't play if it doesn't have that then maybe you should play real time strategies.

And if you play Dragon Age for cinematic presentations, characters and plot maybe you should play Mass Effect?

See I can do it too! 

Someone not liking a feature you do isn't going to hurt you. They're not being ridculous by feeling that way. It's just how they feel. If they were spreading misinformation then you'd have a right to consider them being silly.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:05 .

[nightcobra]

KhorinShizucor wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

I never understeand how someone can approve the total rape they are make to a game with dragon age...Anyways i respect your opinion

Some people actually don't mind change, especially if some perceive changes to be improvements or preferences.

pretty much where i stand right now, i've played through baldur's gate 1 and 2, kotor 1 and 2, jade empire, played a bit of mass effect 1 and 2 at a friend's house and i played DA:origins including all of the dlc. played through other lots of rpgs and other genres (keeping rpgs as my favorite genre) despite all this i'm excited for DA2 and i like the changes so far.

[Khayness]

Estel78 wrote...

Sometimes i feel some people are playing for the wrong reasons. Not specifically you (at least you still want to try it out) but there are those that throw a fit and write the game off because they friggin' can't zoom the camera out as much as they used to. Everytime i'm like what the hell?! Don't be ridiculous! I don't really care about the play mechanics, i trust Bioware that they'll be at least decent and perfectly playable, what's important to me are story, characters, choices, reactivity of the world and yes, a nice cinematic presentation.

They are saying that because iso view symbolises something close to their hearts (oldschool RPG) what is being stripped away now.

Like they said ME3 won't feature XP, you'll get skillpoints after missions instead. Esentially your character will get upgraded nevertheless, but behind the technicality, there is the symbol of the RPG genre.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I don't mind change if it's a good thing. But almost every DA2 preview I've read has made me less eager to buy the game. It's change, sure, but it's not for the better.



That said, I have no doubt that some things will improve greatly over Origins, but this whole 'streamlining' approach to game development that Bioware has adopted (likely from EA) is really hurting their games.

[Estel78]

Ryzaki wrote...

And if you play Dragon Age for cinematic presentations, characters and plot maybe you should play Mass Effect?

I am! And Dragon Age, and a lot of other games. It's awesome being more open minded, you shoud try. 

Bioware wasn't spreading misinformation, it's you who misinterpreted what was said.

[Ryzaki]

Estel78 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And if you play Dragon Age for cinematic presentations, characters and plot maybe you should play Mass Effect?

I am! And Dragon Age, and a lot of other games. It's awesome being more open minded, you shoud try. 

Bioware wasn't spreading misinformation, it's you who misinterpreted what was said.

And the point went over your head.

Play ME2 instead of wanting DA2 to be cinematic.

What was there to misinterpret? Someone said they wouldn't play the game because of a camera and you said their opinion was silly.

And...Uh. I do play ME2 *points to icon* I just like the games I play to be vasty different. You should give not jumping to conclusions a try.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:14 .

[MerinTB]

Estel78 wrote...
Sometimes i feel some people are playing for the wrong reasons that are not my own. (...)  there are those that throw a fit dislike some proposed changes and voice their opinions on it that I just don't agree with and write the game off declare that they might not buy the game because they friggin' can't zoom the camera out as much as they used to the gameplay mechanics of the game are being changed more and more into things that they do not enjoy.

Editted that a bit for you to be a bit more agreeable to everyone without the condescending, patronizing tones.

Estel78 wrote...Everytime i'm like what the hell?! Don't be ridiculous! I don't really care about the play mechanics, i trust Bioware that they'll be at least decent and perfectly playable, what's important to me are story, characters, choices, reactivity of the world and yes, a nice cinematic presentation.

"Story, characters, choices, reactivity of the world and a nice cinematic presentation" are important to YOU, yes, as you say.
And your problem is that they are not as important to others?  It's ridiculous that people playing a game care about how the game is played?
I'm not in the boat of people who enjoy FPS games, but I'm not going to tell them they are wrong for liking those game mechanics.
I'm not on the bandwagon of people who prefer scripted, pre-designed party members but I'm not going to say "what the hell?!" just because that's what they like.

How about, just for a second, you stop at the point where you say you don't agree...
and avoid stepping over the line into mocking people as "ridiculous" for having different tastes and priorities than you.

Story and cinematic presentation are more important to you.  I say yay, glad that you enjoy that most about games.
I like my cRPGs to have a lot of control over creation of my character, as few pre-determined aspects of my character as possible, a party of followers (bare minimum I'm comfortable with is a party of 4, I'd prefer 6) and, given my druthers, I'd like to design all my party-members from scratch.  And if I have my party that I control I really, really need the camera control and not a fixed cam (even a fixed cam with zoom, which is what DA2 sounds like at this point.) That all means far more to me than the story of the game, and honestly I can do without cinematic presentation (though it's fine if its there.)

I'm ok with your story focus and desire for cinematic presentation and world reacting to your choices.
I would hope that you could be ok with my desire for creating my own MC, my own party, and having my tactical camera view.

We don't have to agree, but we can avoid treating each other's views as if they were insane.

[nightcobra]

MerinTB wrote...

Estel78 wrote...
Sometimes i feel some people are playing for the wrong reasons that are not my own. (...)  there are those that throw a fit dislike some proposed changes and voice their opinions on it that I just don't agree with and write the game off[/i] declare that they might not buy the game because they friggin' can't zoom the camera out as much as they used to [i]the gameplay mechanics of the game are being changed more and more into things that they do not enjoy.

Editted that a bit for you to be a bit more agreeable to everyone without the condescending, patronizing tones.

Estel78 wrote...Everytime i'm like what the hell?! Don't be ridiculous! I don't really care about the play mechanics, i trust Bioware that they'll be at least decent and perfectly playable, what's important to me are story, characters, choices, reactivity of the world and yes, a nice cinematic presentation.

"Story, characters, choices, reactivity of the world and a nice cinematic presentation" are important to YOU, yes, as you say.
And your problem is that they are not as important to others?  It's ridiculous that people playing a game care about how the game is played?
I'm not in the boat of people who enjoy FPS games, but I'm not going to tell them they are wrong for liking those game mechanics.
I'm not on the bandwagon of people who prefer scripted, pre-designed party members but I'm not going to say "what the hell?!" just because that's what they like.

How about, just for a second, you stop at the point where you say you don't agree...
and avoid stepping over the line into mocking people as "ridiculous" for having different tastes and priorities than you.

Story and cinematic presentation are more important to you.  I say yay, glad that you enjoy that most about games.
I like my cRPGs to have a lot of control over creation of my character, as few pre-determined aspects of my character as possible, a party of followers (bare minimum I'm comfortable with is a party of 4, I'd prefer 6) and, given my druthers, I'd like to design all my party-members from scratch.  And if I have my party that I control I really, really need the camera control and not a fixed cam (even a fixed cam with zoom, which is what DA2 sounds like at this point.) That all means far more to me than the story of the game, and honestly I can do without cinematic presentation (though it's fine if its there.)

I'm ok with your story focus and desire for cinematic presentation and world reacting to your choices.
I would hope that you could be ok with my desire for creating my own MC, my own party, and having my tactical camera view.

We don't have to agree, but we can avoid treating each other's views as if they were insane.

he/she did specify that plot, characters and cinematic presentation was important to him/her.

[MerinTB]

Malanek999 wrote...

KhorinShizucor wrote...
Some people actually don't mind change, especially if some perceive changes to be improvements or preferences.

Exactly. I don't mind change either....if it is an improvement. I thought ME2 was vastly better than ME1 in almost every way (except the main plot wasn't really advanced). But this is not an improvement. I like about 50% of what I have heard for DA2 and dislike about 50%.

Agree with this response almost all the way.  A little more of 15%/65% for me (with 30% meh.)

I take umbrage with the bolded as I don't mind change if the change fixes something bad or gives me something better.  It's not change, itself, that I dislike...
it's changing things I like for things I don't like that I have a problem with.

There is a difference.