1008 réponses à ce sujet

[Estel78]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah I enjoyed both but I'd rather wish they remained very different from each other.

They are very different in terms of combat.

[MerinTB]

nightcobra8928 wrote...
he/she did specify that plot, characters and cinematic presentation was important to him/her.

And yet also said that "people were playing the game for the wrong reasons" and were being "ridiculous", basically for holding one aspect of the game that he/she didn't care about over the aspects of the game that his/she did care about.

There's a difference between simply saying "I prefer this"
and saying "I prefer this, and you who prefer that are just crazy weird strange wrong."


The point of my response wasn't that they were saying things they prefered as if they were right...
I was responding to the negative tone and dismissive way they treated views they didn't agree with.

You missed the entire context of what I said.

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Then there are those fans who have been playing Bioware games forever and don't see the changes in ME2 or DA:2 as abandonment of any kind, but an evolution.

/raises hand.

That's not to say one set of preferences is superior, only to point out that the constant references to Bioware "abandoning" a fanbase and catering to a new one amount to pathos at its worst. The fanbase does not have a single fixed idea of what they want or expect out of Bioware games. Neither in fact does the much maligned "new audience." It's egotism to casually assume otherwise.

Ditto - I've been a fan for a long time and played games for decades, including BioWare games. I've seen a lot of changes, and they haven't all been bad. Personally, I've never felt threatened, persecuted, or abandoned as games have evolved over the years. I loved text adventures, but I didn't weep and tear my hair out when graphics were added and adventure games morphed into graphic adventures.

It was just a different presentation and an alternative way to play adventure games. I saw the new possibilities that opened up as being exciting and novel. it doesn't mean I forgot about the older games or suddenly thought that having graphics was insta-win. They were different animals, and I realized that. I'm sure there must have been those who said graphic adventures were "dumbed down" because you didn't type like you did in the olden days, but one still had to think and solve problems - it just became more visually oriented.

Those who are so enamored of past gaming glories that they can't even entertain the idea that a game (any game) that has undergone some degree of change might conceivably still be interesting and provide a unique experience are the ones who ultimately lose by depriving themselves of that experience.

[nightcobra]

MerinTB wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...
he/she did specify that plot, characters and cinematic presentation was important to him/her.

And yet also said that "people were playing the game for the wrong reasons" and were being "ridiculous", basically for holding one aspect of the game that he/she didn't care about over the aspects of the game that his/she did care about.

There's a difference between simply saying "I prefer this"
and saying "I prefer this, and you who prefer that are just crazy weird strange wrong."

i agree on that point. no need to undermine the other side of the fence and that goes to both sides.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Estel78 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And if you play Dragon Age for cinematic presentations, characters and plot maybe you should play Mass Effect?

I am! And Dragon Age, and a lot of other games. It's awesome being more open minded, you shoud try. 

Bioware wasn't spreading misinformation, it's you who misinterpreted what was said.

It will be so awesome when every game is just a cookie cutter carbon copy of the game that came before it. Get used to it, and get with the times! Streamlining/stripping down is the IN thing! And suck it up if you don't like it!  Is this pretty much what you're saying? Because thats what I'm hearing.

[Ryzaki]

Estel78 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah I enjoyed both but I'd rather wish they remained very different from each other.

They are very different in terms of combat.

And I'd prefer they be very different in terms of presentation as well. Different combat is not enough for me considering I don't like combat in games very much to begin with.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:24 .

[Ulous]

Bioware have had to move with the times, if they don't then they fall behind, if they fall behind they go bust, then we will have no Bioware games at all.

[JamieCOTC]

Estel78 wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

It's not just that, but I was speaking also of the "top down mode" being gone.  For whatever  reason, they are taking out one of my favorite aspects of the game and so it's a nail in the coffin.  Maybe zooming out will make up for it. We'll see. 

Sometimes i feel some people are playing for the wrong reasons. Not specifically you (at least you still want to try it out) but there are those that throw a fit and write the game off because they friggin' can't zoom the camera out as much as they used to. Everytime i'm like what the hell?! Don't be ridiculous! I don't really care about the play mechanics, i trust Bioware that they'll be at least decent and perfectly playable, what's important to me are story, characters, choices, reactivity of the world and yes, a nice cinematic presentation.

I've already preordered the game actually.  The way I see it, it takes a good six + nails to seal a coffin tight.  DA2 has one in my book, still plenty room to get out before a premature burial, but that one nail is there to stay. And for whatever reason, stuffing a PC into a console, as so many claim, ascetics as BW claims or just because, they are taking away something I like from the first game, not improving it, not evolving it, taking it away.  That doesn’t mean the game needs to be written off or that BW is the devil.  It just means there will come a point in the game when I'll say to myself, "I wish this damn thing had a top view."  That's all.   

[Wulfram]

It's a shame. DA:O was the first time since BG2 I felt Bioware wasn't actually trying to make the interface annoying.

[Estel78]

MerinTB wrote...

And yet also said that "people were playing the game for the wrong reasons" and were being "ridiculous", basically for holding one aspect of the game that he/she didn't care about over the aspects of the game that his/she did care about.

There's a difference between simply saying "I prefer this"
and saying "I prefer this, and you who prefer that are just crazy weird strange wrong."


The point of my response wasn't that they were saying things they prefered as if they were right...
I was responding to the negative tone and dismissive way they treated views they didn't agree with.

You missed the entire context of what I said.

Yes, if you decide to not play DA2 just because you can't zoom  the camera out as much, then that's ridiculous IN MY BOOK.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Ulous wrote...

Bioware have had to move with the times, if they don't then they fall behind, if they fall behind they go bust, then we will have no Bioware games at all.

Apparently selling 3 million plus copies of a game isn't sucess these days. Bioware is now fully part of the EA brand, there's little fear of them suddenly going under unless EA pulls a Bullfrog/Origin/Westwood on them.

[John Epler]

There is no right way or wrong way to play our games (well, playing them while surfing down an erupting volcano may qualify as 'wrong'), just as there is no right or wrong reason for playing our games.



Everyone comes to them for a different reason. Let's not suggest that someone's doing so for the wrong reason.

[MerinTB]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Then there are those fans who have been playing Bioware games forever and don't see the changes in ME2 or DA:2 as abandonment of any kind, but an evolution.

/raises hand.

That's not to say one set of preferences is superior, only to point out that the constant references to Bioware "abandoning" a fanbase and catering to a new one amount to pathos at its worst. The fanbase does not have a single fixed idea of what they want or expect out of Bioware games. Neither in fact does the much maligned "new audience." It's egotism to casually assume otherwise.

Ditto - I've been a fan for a long time and played games for decades, including BioWare games. I've seen a lot of changes, and they haven't all been bad. Personally, I've never felt threatened, persecuted, or abandoned as games have evolved over the years. I loved text adventures, but I didn't weep and tear my hair out when graphics were added and adventure games morphed into graphic adventures.

It was just a different presentation and an alternative way to play adventure games. I saw the new possibilities that opened up as being exciting and novel. it doesn't mean I forgot about the older games or suddenly thought that having graphics was insta-win. They were different animals, and I realized that. I'm sure there must have been those who said graphic adventures were "dumbed down" because you didn't type like you did in the olden days, but one still had to think and solve problems - it just became more visually oriented.

Those who are so enamored of past gaming glories that they can't even entertain the idea that a game (any game) that has undergone some degree of change might conceivably still be interesting and provide a unique experience are the ones who ultimately lose by depriving themselves of that experience.

False dichotomy being set up.  It's not an either-or.

There are degrees.

And I'm fairly certain that most people (myself especially) are not crying because things change or are different...
but that the things being changed are first things they liked and second being changed into things they don't like.

There's a difference, again (I hate having to keep pointing these things out, but I hate the strawmen more), between:
text adevntures to graphical adventures (where there were no graphics before)
and
one style of gameplay that has existed for a long time being morphed into another style of gameplay that also has existed for a long time

There's no need to "imagine" what faster paced action combat will be like -
we have plenty of games out there to sample for that.  It's not a NEW thing that people aren't aware of what it'll be like... it's an existing and well known quantity.

It's also not like FP POV or TP POV are new - they've been around for a long time.  Nor is it new to have limited camera controls in a game, nor any range of camera controls.

These are not switches to brand new things -
these are changing one game's mechanics (that were not new by a long shot) into a different set of game mechanics for the sequel (the different set of game mechanics, again, not new by any stretch of the imagination.)

The only scenario where saying "those who don't like the more fast-pace action of DA2 as compared to DA:O" or "those who don't like losing the overhead camera of DA:O for the fixed OTS but zoomable camera of DA2" are simply people afraid of changing from what they know to what they don't is if those people had only ever played DA:O or games with exactly the same contested mechanics.

And, as someone who's got a wide range of games on his shelf, I can tell you that I've got quite a lot of experience with all kinds of views and camera control settings.  It's not fear of an unknown that I'm not allowing myself to imagine the possiblities...
it's a dead-set knowledge of how these changes can play out a vast myriad of different ranges of tweaking, and knowing where my preferred range is.

I seriously doubt that there are really very many, if any, people who dislike the changes because those people are people "who are so enamored of past gaming glories that they can't even
entertain the idea that a game (any game) that has undergone some degree
of change might conceivably still be interesting and provide a unique experience " to be perfectly honest.

Nor is it an "evolution" to change to things that have really already existed, not only in other games but in other BioWare games of the past.

For many people (myself included again) and probably most if not all, it has nothing to do with changes from or changes, but with losing preferred things for things they already know they don't like.

Both of you I am quoting are assuming a lot of ignorance on the part of those unhappy with what we "know" of DA2.  There may indeed be some ignorance or lack of imagination, but I promise you there are plenty with more than enough experience with a variety of games to have plenty of imagination and experience that are instead driving their dislike and concern.

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[_John Crichton]

JohnEpler wrote...

There is no right way or wrong way to play our games (well, playing them while surfing down an erupting volcano may qualify as 'wrong'), just as there is no right or wrong reason for playing our games.

Everyone comes to them for a different reason. Let's not suggest that someone's doing so for the wrong reason.

If gaming while surfing down an erupting volcano is wrong then I don't wanna be right.

[JrayM16]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Estel78 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And if you play Dragon Age for cinematic presentations, characters and plot maybe you should play Mass Effect?

I am! And Dragon Age, and a lot of other games. It's awesome being more open minded, you shoud try. 

Bioware wasn't spreading misinformation, it's you who misinterpreted what was said.

It will be so awesome when every game is just a cookie cutter carbon copy of the game that came before it. Get used to it, and get with the times! Streamlining/stripping down is the IN thing! And suck it up if you don't like it!  Is this pretty much what you're saying? Because thats what I'm hearing.

You do realize that the bolded portion is the complete opposite of what you have been accusing Bioware of doing? 

I've resisted the urge to endlessly link TV Tropes on this forum but you are really testing my resolve. 

[Malanek]

Merin, I completely agree. Well said.

[JrayM16]

MerinTB wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Then there are those fans who have been playing Bioware games forever and don't see the changes in ME2 or DA:2 as abandonment of any kind, but an evolution.

/raises hand.

That's not to say one set of preferences is superior, only to point out that the constant references to Bioware "abandoning" a fanbase and catering to a new one amount to pathos at its worst. The fanbase does not have a single fixed idea of what they want or expect out of Bioware games. Neither in fact does the much maligned "new audience." It's egotism to casually assume otherwise.

Ditto - I've been a fan for a long time and played games for decades, including BioWare games. I've seen a lot of changes, and they haven't all been bad. Personally, I've never felt threatened, persecuted, or abandoned as games have evolved over the years. I loved text adventures, but I didn't weep and tear my hair out when graphics were added and adventure games morphed into graphic adventures.

It was just a different presentation and an alternative way to play adventure games. I saw the new possibilities that opened up as being exciting and novel. it doesn't mean I forgot about the older games or suddenly thought that having graphics was insta-win. They were different animals, and I realized that. I'm sure there must have been those who said graphic adventures were "dumbed down" because you didn't type like you did in the olden days, but one still had to think and solve problems - it just became more visually oriented.

Those who are so enamored of past gaming glories that they can't even entertain the idea that a game (any game) that has undergone some degree of change might conceivably still be interesting and provide a unique experience are the ones who ultimately lose by depriving themselves of that experience.

False dichotomy being set up.  It's not an either-or.

There are degrees.

And I'm fairly certain that most people (myself especially) are not crying because things change or are different...
but that the things being changed are first things they liked and second being changed into things they don't like.

There's a difference, again (I hate having to keep pointing these things out, but I hate the strawmen more), between:
text adevntures to graphical adventures (where there were no graphics before)
and
one style of gameplay that has existed for a long time being morphed into another style of gameplay that also has existed for a long time

There's no need to "imagine" what faster paced action combat will be like -
we have plenty of games out there to sample for that.  It's not a NEW thing that people aren't aware of what it'll be like... it's an existing and well known quantity.

It's also not like FP POV or TP POV are new - they've been around for a long time.  Nor is it new to have limited camera controls in a game, nor any range of camera controls.

These are not switches to brand new things -
these are changing one game's mechanics (that were not new by a long shot) into a different set of game mechanics for the sequel (the different set of game mechanics, again, not new by any stretch of the imagination.)

The only scenario where saying "those who don't like the more fast-pace action of DA2 as compared to DA:O" or "those who don't like losing the overhead camera of DA:O for the fixed OTS but zoomable camera of DA2" are simply people afraid of changing from what they know to what they don't is if those people had only ever played DA:O or games with exactly the same contested mechanics.

And, as someone who's got a wide range of games on his shelf, I can tell you that I've got quite a lot of experience with all kinds of views and camera control settings.  It's not fear of an unknown that I'm not allowing myself to imagine the possiblities...
it's a dead-set knowledge of how these changes can play out a vast myriad of different ranges of tweaking, and knowing where my preferred range is.

I seriously doubt that there are really very many, if any, people who dislike the changes because those people are people "who are so enamored of past gaming glories that they can't even
entertain the idea that a game (any game) that has undergone some degree
of change might conceivably still be interesting and provide a unique experience " to be perfectly honest.

Nor is it an "evolution" to change to things that have really already existed, not only in other games but in other BioWare games of the past.

For many people (myself included again) and probably most if not all, it has nothing to do with changes from or changes, but with losing preferred things for things they already know they don't like.

Both of you I am quoting are assuming a lot of ignorance on the part of those unhappy with what we "know" of DA2.  There may indeed be some ignorance or lack of imagination, but I promise you there are plenty with more than enough experience with a variety of games to have plenty of imagination and experience that are instead driving their dislike and concern.

Post of the day.

[Apollo Starflare]

John Crichton wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

There is no right way or wrong way to play our games (well, playing them while surfing down an erupting volcano may qualify as 'wrong'), just as there is no right or wrong reason for playing our games.

Everyone comes to them for a different reason. Let's not suggest that someone's doing so for the wrong reason.

If gaming while surfing down an erupting volcano is wrong then I don't wanna be right.

You and me both brother. Quite frankly I want this anti-volcano surfing policy to come to an abrupt end as soon as possible, it's not like the old days where we (and our reinforced surfboards) were welcomed!

[Ryzaki]

Malanek999 wrote...

Merin, I completely agree. Well said.

This.

[MerinTB]

Malanek999 wrote...
Merin, I completely agree. Well said.

Even annoyed, disappointed, upset and hungry...

I do try to get people to speak without being dismissive of each other or misrepresenting what people are concerned about.

I'm not perfect, I'll mess up on my own quite often and need to be corrected.

But I do try.

Speaking of hungry - time for a break from the forums.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

JrayM16 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Estel78 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And if you play Dragon Age for cinematic presentations, characters and plot maybe you should play Mass Effect?

I am! And Dragon Age, and a lot of other games. It's awesome being more open minded, you shoud try. 

Bioware wasn't spreading misinformation, it's you who misinterpreted what was said.

It will be so awesome when every game is just a cookie cutter carbon copy of the game that came before it. Get used to it, and get with the times! Streamlining/stripping down is the IN thing! And suck it up if you don't like it!  Is this pretty much what you're saying? Because thats what I'm hearing.

You do realize that the bolded portion is the complete opposite of what you have been accusing Bioware of doing? 

I've resisted the urge to endlessly link TV Tropes on this forum but you are really testing my resolve. 

Really you haven't read the Dragon Effect comments yet?

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

MerinTB wrote...

False dichotomy being set up.  It's not an either-or.

There are degrees.

And I'm fairly certain that most people (myself especially) are not crying because things change or are different...
but that the things being changed are first things they liked and second being changed into things they don't like.

There's a difference, again (I hate having to keep pointing these things out, but I hate the strawmen more), between:
text adevntures to graphical adventures (where there were no graphics before)
and
one style of gameplay that has existed for a long time being morphed into another style of gameplay that also has existed for a long time

There's no need to "imagine" what faster paced action combat will be like -
we have plenty of games out there to sample for that.  It's not a NEW thing that people aren't aware of what it'll be like... it's an existing and well known quantity.

It's also not like FP POV or TP POV are new - they've been around for a long time.  Nor is it new to have limited camera controls in a game, nor any range of camera controls.

These are not switches to brand new things -
these are changing one game's mechanics (that were not new by a long shot) into a different set of game mechanics for the sequel (the different set of game mechanics, again, not new by any stretch of the imagination.)

The only scenario where saying "those who don't like the more fast-pace action of DA2 as compared to DA:O" or "those who don't like losing the overhead camera of DA:O for the fixed OTS but zoomable camera of DA2" are simply people afraid of changing from what they know to what they don't is if those people had only ever played DA:O or games with exactly the same contested mechanics.

And, as someone who's got a wide range of games on his shelf, I can tell you that I've got quite a lot of experience with all kinds of views and camera control settings.  It's not fear of an unknown that I'm not allowing myself to imagine the possiblities...
it's a dead-set knowledge of how these changes can play out a vast myriad of different ranges of tweaking, and knowing where my preferred range is.

I seriously doubt that there are really very many, if any, people who dislike the changes because those people are people "who are so enamored of past gaming glories that they can't even
entertain the idea that a game (any game) that has undergone some degree
of change might conceivably still be interesting and provide a unique experience " to be perfectly honest.

Nor is it an "evolution" to change to things that have really already existed, not only in other games but in other BioWare games of the past.

For many people (myself included again) and probably most if not all, it has nothing to do with changes from or changes, but with losing preferred things for things they already know they don't like.

Both of you I am quoting are assuming a lot of ignorance on the part of those unhappy with what we "know" of DA2.  There may indeed be some ignorance or lack of imagination, but I promise you there are plenty with more than enough experience with a variety of games to have plenty of imagination and experience that are instead driving their dislike and concern.

/Thread right there. Well said, couldn't agree more.

[JrayM16]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Estel78 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And if you play Dragon Age for cinematic presentations, characters and plot maybe you should play Mass Effect?

I am! And Dragon Age, and a lot of other games. It's awesome being more open minded, you shoud try. 

Bioware wasn't spreading misinformation, it's you who misinterpreted what was said.

It will be so awesome when every game is just a cookie cutter carbon copy of the game that came before it. Get used to it, and get with the times! Streamlining/stripping down is the IN thing! And suck it up if you don't like it!  Is this pretty much what you're saying? Because thats what I'm hearing.

You do realize that the bolded portion is the complete opposite of what you have been accusing Bioware of doing? 

I've resisted the urge to endlessly link TV Tropes on this forum but you are really testing my resolve. 

Really you haven't read the Dragon Effect comments yet?

I don't know to which Dragon Effect comments you are referring to as I have seen quite a few.  Yours?  Ones on TV Tropes?

[upsettingshorts]

MerinTB wrote...
Both of you I am quoting are assuming a lot of ignorance on the part of those unhappy with what we "know" of DA2.

No.  I was just responding to one specific criticism of Bioware and DA:2, not all of them.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 novembre 2010 - 08:50 .

[Dave of Canada]

FedericoV wrote...

I've never played CoD or another FPS so I cannot make any comment based on my personal experience. But I remember that most reviews about DA:O on consolle were very positive and then we learn from players and even devs that it was far from true.

When I played the console version, it had a lot of flaws but it was still an enjoyable experience. Fixed camera, poor inventory management, lots of hidden numbers, limited abilities on a quick-access bar ability to not move characters without switching to control them manually and such caused a lot of problems. However, when I played the PC version, you realise just how bad the console version was.

Origins on Console was given lower reviews than the PC version, most of the things people tend to hate and be bitter about when they see the demo / play the demo are just thinks that were already in the console version. One has to play both to fully grasp WHY they are enhancing the console version this time around. The console version was miles inferior to the PC version, working on it and such isn't abandoning the PC version but simply making the console version actually comparable to the PC version in the first place.