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#676
Meltemph

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 Without having played other games, how can you possibly know what is "quality"?

Someone who's never heard any music ever before might find the beginning music student's earnest but unskilled attempts at playing their instrument very good, until they hear a high school student who's had years of training... and then that's great until they hear a symphony orchestra, etc.

Without some previous experience with a thing, or something to compare it to, there is no way to evaluate it.

Is this pencil long or short?  Your answer will most likely be based on what you perceive as the "standard" length for a pencil.  Without that knowledge, how can you judge if it is long or short?


How do you know if a game is good or bad if you've have no other game experience to compare it with?

You need points of reference, otherwise any evaluation you try to make is meaningless.


You can take into account your own experiences with other games, obviously, to look at a game.  But it only can help you so much.  After a certain point, when the thing you are comparing it to is so much different from the product you are currently looking at it ceases to be a coherent reference point, and then you have to evaluate the game on its individual merits.  

You could look at the ten inch long pencil, with no point of reference to other pencils in your memory or at hand, and think "ten inches isn't that much, a ruler is twelve inches, I'll say it's short" (note still comparing it a system of measurement AND a measuring device there), or you could think "ten inches, wow, a toothpick is like two inches, so five times that is quite long!"

Is this pencil long or short?  Your answer will most likely be based on what you perceive as the "standard" length for a pencil.  Without that knowledge, how can you judge if it is long or short?


Your comparisons/analogies do not apply to these products though.  A pencil has a very defined purpose its imperfections/issues are much easier to point out.  A game does not have a defined purpose and its sole job is to entertain(well at least the type of video games we are talking about). 

Someone who's never heard any music ever before might find the beginning music student's earnest but unskilled attempts at playing their instrument very good, until they hear a high school student who's had years of training... and then that's great until they hear a symphony orchestra, etc.


And here is where you are starting to show your bias, or maybe tipping your hat, by using this analogy, unless I am just over analyzing it.

This is not a comparison of a elementary band vs high school band.  The closest comparison would be comparing many orchestras against each other.  Not everyone is going to like the same orchestra, but that does not make the ones you like, better then the others, it just means you liked a different orchestra more.

Modifié par Meltemph, 19 novembre 2010 - 05:50 .


#677
Ziggeh

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leonia42 wrote...

I like cheese. Not because it is like other foods but because it is simply delicious.

It's not objectively delicious though. There may be some (crazy folk I know) who don't like cheese. So your enjoyment of cheese is more about you than it is the cheese.

Bacon is objectively delicious though. People who don't like bacon are just wrong.

#678
AtreiyaN7

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I like cheese. Not because it is like other foods but because it is simply delicious.

It's not objectively delicious though. There may be some (crazy folk I know) who don't like cheese. So your enjoyment of cheese is more about you than it is the cheese.

Bacon is objectively delicious though. People who don't like bacon are just wrong.


*steals bacon and cheese and makes a sandwich*

Best of both worlds!

#679
Maria Caliban

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leonia42 wrote...

I like cheese. Not because it is like other foods but because it is simply delicious.


Why type of cheese? Are you an intelligent, glorious, and sexy Gouda eater, or one of those dumbed down cheddar munchers?

#680
Leonia

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AtreiyaN7 wrote...
*steals bacon and cheese and makes a sandwich*

Best of both worlds!


You can't repel flavour of this magnitude!

And really, I am not all that sorry about slightly derailing this fiery debate over the tactical camera angle of a video game. It's nothing but nit-picking of the extreme degree, especially when none of us have seen an official gameplay video (console or PC) that shows it in action.


Maria Caliban wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I like cheese. Not because it is like other foods but because it is simply delicious.


Why type of cheese? Are you an intelligent, glorious, and sexy Gouda eater,
or one of those dumbed down cheddar munchers?


I prefer the kind with the spicy bits of jalapeno and peppers in it but can't remember the fancy name for it at the moment. Pepperjack? Does that make me an elitist or a plebian?

Modifié par leonia42, 19 novembre 2010 - 06:00 .


#681
Atakuma

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I'm so upset Bioware is removing cheese-wheels from the game, It's a slap in the face to their hardcore crpg fan base!

#682
Malanek

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leonia42 wrote...
And really, I am not all that sorry about slightly derailing this fiery debate over the tactical camera angle of a video game. It's nothing but nit-picking of the extreme degree, especially when none of us have seen an official gameplay video (console or PC) that shows it in action.


The bit in bold I completely disagree with. The camera can't make a game but it certainly can break a game. As dave from canada pointed out, the console version of origins got worse reviews and was a significantly worse game. The main difference was the camera. Trying to play origins without changing the camera is extremely tedious.

The bit in itallics is fair enough. We are making assumptions. However they are educated assumptions. We have now been told from bioware that you cannot zoom up and you detach from the character.

Personally I think concerns are now justified.

#683
Leonia

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Maybe I am biased, if I could put up the camera in NWN 2 I guess I can put up with anything. *shrug*

But it's still silly to criticise a feature we don't fully understand yet, regardless of the impact that said feature can potentially have on the overall game.

Also, according to Wikipedia, Pepper Jack is a derivative of Monterey Jack which is a cheddar so I am a lowly pleb. Take my opinions with a sprinkle of gouda.

Modifié par leonia42, 19 novembre 2010 - 06:08 .


#684
Atakuma

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Malanek999 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
And really, I am not all that sorry about slightly derailing this fiery debate over the tactical camera angle of a video game. It's nothing but nit-picking of the extreme degree, especially when none of us have seen an official gameplay video (console or PC) that shows it in action.


The bit in bold I completely disagree with. The camera can't make a game but it certainly can break a game. As dave from canada pointed out, the console version of origins got worse reviews and was a significantly worse game. The main difference was the camera. Trying to play origins without changing the camera is extremely tedious.

The bit in itallics is fair enough. We are making assumptions. However they are educated assumptions. We have now been told from bioware that you cannot zoom up and you detach from the character.

Personally I think concerns are now justified.

I got along just fine without it, so i dont see how it can possibly be considered a gamebreaker. But i guess it boils down to personal preference.

Modifié par Atakuma, 19 novembre 2010 - 06:09 .


#685
Ryzaki

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And yes bad cameras extremely detract from the game play. Hell KH was on one system and the bad camera detracted from gameplay.

Though...gah. It' going to be hard going to an over the shoulder view from isometric.

:(

Doesn't help that I never and I mean never used that viewing angle. I found it to be atrocious.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 06:11 .


#686
Maria Caliban

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leonia42 wrote...

I prefer the kind with the spicy bits of jalapeno and peppers in it but can't remember the fancy name for it at the moment. Pepperjack? Does that make me an elitist or a plebian?


Filthy Pepperjack eating swine. Begone from this forum and never darken it again with your presence!

leonia42 wrote...

Also, according to Wikipedia, Pepper Jack is a derivative of Monterey Jack which is a cheddar so I am a lowly pleb. Take my opinions with a sprinkle of gouda.


I don't believe Monterey Jack is a cheddar. Cheddar is an English cheese and Monterey Jack is American.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 19 novembre 2010 - 06:12 .


#687
Malanek

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Atakuma wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
And really, I am not all that sorry about slightly derailing this fiery debate over the tactical camera angle of a video game. It's nothing but nit-picking of the extreme degree, especially when none of us have seen an official gameplay video (console or PC) that shows it in action.


The bit in bold I completely disagree with. The camera can't make a game but it certainly can break a game. As dave from canada pointed out, the console version of origins got worse reviews and was a significantly worse game. The main difference was the camera. Trying to play origins without changing the camera is extremely tedious.

The bit in itallics is fair enough. We are making assumptions. However they are educated assumptions. We have now been told from bioware that you cannot zoom up and you detach from the character.

Personally I think concerns are now justified.

I got along just fine without it, so i dont see how it can possibly be considered a gamebreaker. But i guess it boils down to personal preference.

Have you ever tried the PC version? The general consensus is that it was the significantly better version.

#688
Atakuma

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Malanek999 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
And really, I am not all that sorry about slightly derailing this fiery debate over the tactical camera angle of a video game. It's nothing but nit-picking of the extreme degree, especially when none of us have seen an official gameplay video (console or PC) that shows it in action.


The bit in bold I completely disagree with. The camera can't make a game but it certainly can break a game. As dave from canada pointed out, the console version of origins got worse reviews and was a significantly worse game. The main difference was the camera. Trying to play origins without changing the camera is extremely tedious.

The bit in itallics is fair enough. We are making assumptions. However they are educated assumptions. We have now been told from bioware that you cannot zoom up and you detach from the character.

Personally I think concerns are now justified.

I got along just fine without it, so i dont see how it can possibly be considered a gamebreaker. But i guess it boils down to personal preference.

Have you ever tried the PC version? The general consensus is that it was the significantly better version.

I have only played the pc version, and I never felt the need to use the isometric camera.

#689
Meltemph

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The main difference was the camera.




I read about 20 PC reviews today of DAO and most of the complaints about DAO was the animations and the camera...



Also, I played w/o iso on nightmare on Golems and did perfectly fine.

#690
Malanek

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Atakuma wrote...
I have only played the pc version, and I never felt the need to use the isometric camera.

Why did you never use it? I don't understand why you wouldn't. There were plenty of situations where it was simply the superior camera. Back on page 19 (or 20) I posted a series of screenshots to highlight a couple of different cases where the tactical camera was, IMO unquestionably superior. Did you see those?

#691
Malanek

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Meltemph wrote...


The main difference was the camera.


I read about 20 PC reviews today of DAO and most of the complaints about DAO was the animations and the camera...

Also, I played w/o iso on nightmare on Golems and did perfectly fine.

Not sure I believe this. Links to say 5.

#692
Ziggeh

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Malanek999 wrote...

Have you ever tried the PC version? The general consensus is that it was the significantly better version.

It wasn't ideal though. Even switching between the isometric and over the shoulder would often leave targets out of view, especially if you were doing something crazy like pulling round corners into traps and aoe.

Obviously I've no idea if the new system addresses that issue, but while I am slightly concerned about the apparent loss of the isometric, I can't say that it's inherently an better angle. Worth the discussion, definitely. I just think the concern should be more "make sure the camera system lets you do all you need to do" as opposed to "we need the isometric".

#693
Meltemph

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Why did you never use it? I don't understand why you wouldn't. There were plenty of situations where it was simply the superior camera. Back on page 19 (or 20) I posted a series of screenshots to highlight a couple of different cases where the tactical camera was, IMO unquestionably superior. Did you see those?




The iso camera was always the better camera because you could see way to far and could see past doors and just about anything else. It made the game easy on nightmare and trivialized much of the exploration and fights.



Playing w/o iso was much more enjoyable because the game actually felt like a game that needed at least a little tactics. With the iso camera the battles were about as complicated as red rover, imo.




#694
Leonia

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There are many reasons that the console version had issues, the camera angle only being one of them. Also, I rarely use the top-down camera in the PC version myself, and to call it "superior" to the normal view seems a bit.. well, biased really. Clearly the game can be played without that feature, maybe you don't like it but that doesn't mean it can't be done.



Anyway, Mistress Maria has spoken, so I bid you all farewell! *goes to hide under a rock*

#695
Atakuma

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Meltemph wrote...

Why did you never use it? I don't understand why you wouldn't. There were plenty of situations where it was simply the superior camera. Back on page 19 (or 20) I posted a series of screenshots to highlight a couple of different cases where the tactical camera was, IMO unquestionably superior. Did you see those?


The iso camera was always the better camera because you could see way to far and could see past doors and just about anything else. It made the game easy on nightmare and trivialized much of the exploration and fights.

Playing w/o iso was much more enjoyable because the game actually felt like a game that needed at least a little tactics. With the iso camera the battles were about as complicated as red rover, imo.

^This

#696
Meltemph

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Not sure I believe this. Links to say 5.

Look through them yourself...  I specifically went through them because someone said iso was very well praised in the reviews.  I could only find 3 that actually actively praised iso.  Don't mean to sound rude, but I really don't want to have to go through them all again to find the comments.

Just do what I did, tab all the reviews or as many as you can, and then ctrl+f camera or animations.

#697
Malanek

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Have you ever tried the PC version? The general consensus is that it was the significantly better version.

It wasn't ideal though. Even switching between the isometric and over the shoulder would often leave targets out of view, especially if you were doing something crazy like pulling round corners into traps and aoe.

Obviously I've no idea if the new system addresses that issue, but while I am slightly concerned about the apparent loss of the isometric, I can't say that it's inherently an better angle. Worth the discussion, definitely. I just think the concern should be more "make sure the camera system lets you do all you need to do" as opposed to "we need the isometric".

I'm definately not arguing that it was ideal. I really hated the way it would snap AOE targetting to centre on creatures when it passed over them for instance. I would have preferred the tactical camera to be able to move further away from the character. But it was certainly better than not having it.

I was quite excited (relatively speaking) when Mike Laidlaw mentioned they were working on having the tactical completely detaching from the character but not going up so high. But this is no longer happening.

#698
AlanC9

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Jeez,  Merin. I was just  trying to nudge you in the right direction, since your fruit metaphor wasn't working; it doesn't give you any way to evaluate individual fruits, unless you really do want pineapples that taste like pears.

As for gold standards, the "gold standard" for medical treatments is which one is the most effective, right? OK, so what's the equivalent for games? I proposed that the gold standard for games is whether they're fun or not, and we don't need to have any other games to compare them to to evaluate that. At which point you declared you were being baited.

You really had a problem with that? I'm going to assume that you're having a bad day or something.

There's nothing wrong with saying that another game isn't as much fun for you as BG. But that's not a useful or interesting statement unless you can also articulate why.

#699
Malanek

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leonia42 wrote...

There are many reasons that the console version had issues, the camera angle only being one of them. Also, I rarely use the top-down camera in the PC version myself, and to call it "superior" to the normal view seems a bit.. well, biased really. Clearly the game can be played without that feature, maybe you don't like it but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

Anyway, Mistress Maria has spoken, so I bid you all farewell! *goes to hide under a rock*

I assume you are replying to me? I have repeatedly said superior in some situations. How is that biased?

#700
Ziggeh

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Malanek999 wrote...

I'm definately not arguing that it was ideal. I really hated the way it would snap AOE targetting to centre on creatures when it passed over them for instance. I would have preferred the tactical camera to be able to move further away from the character. But it was certainly better than not having it.

I was quite excited (relatively speaking) when Mike Laidlaw mentioned they were working on having the tactical completely detaching from the character but not going up so high. But this is no longer happening.

Didn't someone post a review of the demo that said something about a new top down camera angle when you went to cast aoe spells?

I might have made that up. I'd go looking but it's 6:30 in the morning here and I can feel the caffiene crash soming on.