1008 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

Orizont wrote...

Does anyone else find it amusing how many times he repeats that the PC version will not be over-simplified? That pretty much seems to be the gist of the entire preview.
"Methinks thou dost protest too much."

In fairness, it does seem to be a concept people are struggling with.

[errant_knight]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Orizont wrote...

Does anyone else find it amusing how many times he repeats that the PC version will not be over-simplified? That pretty much seems to be the gist of the entire preview.
"Methinks thou dost protest too much."

In fairness, it does seem to be a concept people are struggling with.

Well, it depends on what one means by simplified. The dialogue is, the inventory is. If one is only talking about combat then we don't know, but if the rpg elements ar 'buried', then it is simplified.

[AlanC9]

I don't see how voiced dialogue = simplified.

[Gibb_Shepard]

errant_knight wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Orizont wrote...

Does anyone else find it amusing how many times he repeats that the PC version will not be over-simplified? That pretty much seems to be the gist of the entire preview.
"Methinks thou dost protest too much."

In fairness, it does seem to be a concept people are struggling with.

Well, it depends on what one means by simplified. The dialogue is, the inventory is. If one is only talking about combat then we don't know, but if the rpg elements ar 'buried', then it is simplified.

I lol at the fact that you think voiced dialogue is simplified. It actually makes everything a hell of alot more complex, and adds characterisation to Hawke. It is the complete opposite of simplification. 

[Xewaka]

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't see how voiced dialogue = simplified.

Because you don't actually know what you will say, only a short paraphrase that can easily be misleading, so you'll end up picking choices based on the icon rather than on the text.
On Origins, you read each reply to make a choice. DA 2 will probably go "Sarcastic, sarcastic, flirt, sarcastic" for most people, as if you try to trust the paraphrase you'll be dissapointed sooner than later.

Modifié par Xewaka, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:16 .

[philbo1965uk]

Xewaka wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't see how voiced dialogue = simplified.

Because you don't actually know what you will say, only a short paraphrase that can easily be misleading, so you'll end up picking choices based on the icon rather than on the text.
On Origins, you read each reply to make a choice. DA 2 will probably go "Sarcastic, sarcastic, flirt, sarcastic" for most people, as if you try to trust the paraphrase you'll be dissapointed sooner than later.

Therefore...prudent to create lot's of save points.

[Xewaka]

philbo1965uk wrote...

Therefore...prudent to create lot's of save points.

Yet having to constantly reload because the paraphrase has misled you again and you said the opposite of what you meant is very annoying.
If you also factor the fact that I play the spanich subbed version, and that english, a language already ambiguous when it comes to translations, becomes even more ambiguous when shortened to bullet points, you will understand the origin of my frustration with paraphrasing.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Xewaka wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't see how voiced dialogue = simplified.

Because you don't actually know what you will say, only a short paraphrase that can easily be misleading, so you'll end up picking choices based on the icon rather than on the text.
On Origins, you read each reply to make a choice. DA 2 will probably go "Sarcastic, sarcastic, flirt, sarcastic" for most people, as if you try to trust the paraphrase you'll be dissapointed sooner than later.

It'll give a short version of the dialogue like in ME, but also add an annotation showing the general attitude the player will have when choosing the dialogue. 

Seriously, the expense of a fully written, mute text is WELL worth it considering you can actually have a voice this time; something that will give a ridiculous amount of characterisation to Hawke, AND actually make the conversations feel dynamic and deep, not one sided.

[Xewaka]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't see how voiced dialogue = simplified.

Because you don't actually know what you will say, only a short paraphrase that can easily be misleading, so you'll end up picking choices based on the icon rather than on the text.
On Origins, you read each reply to make a choice. DA 2 will probably go "Sarcastic, sarcastic, flirt, sarcastic" for most people, as if you try to trust the paraphrase you'll be dissapointed sooner than later.

It'll give a short version of the dialogue like in ME, but also add an annotation showing the general attitude the player will have when choosing the dialogue. 

Seriously, the expense of a fully written, mute text is WELL worth it considering you can actually have a voice this time; something that will give a ridiculous amount of characterisation to Hawke, AND actually make the conversations feel dynamic and deep, not one sided.

I fully hope it has nothing to do with the ME paraphrase. I truly hope so. I'd like my character to actually say what I intend him to say.
However, do not try to play Voice Acting as an advantage. Because of voice acting, the choice of race had to go. The drawback overweights the benefit by a metric ton.

[LexXxich]

Hawke is supposed to be player's character, unlike Shepard. All the characterisation s/he needs is in player's head.

Not having the control of exact wording, having a pre-determined voice (which *will* clash with certain face-types), "smart" system of creating a dominant personality (which will lead to Hawke becoming one-dimensional character) - all of these robs player of creative freedoms. Those freedoms are now usurped by Bioware.

Not everyone will see it as a bad thing. But I do.

[philbo1965uk]

Xewaka wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

Therefore...prudent to create lot's of save points.

Yet having to constantly reload because the paraphrase has misled you again and you said the opposite of what you meant is very annoying.
If you also factor the fact that I play the spanich subbed version, and that english, a language already ambiguous when it comes to translations, becomes even more ambiguous when shortened to bullet points, you will understand the origin of my frustration with paraphrasing.

Totally agree..

[FedericoV]

Xewaka wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

Therefore...prudent to create lot's of save points.

Yet having to constantly reload because the paraphrase has misled you again and you said the opposite of what you meant is very annoying.

Honestly, I've got more reload issues with DA:O than ME2. Each system has problems of ambiguity. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the wheel or the paraphrase system. ME1 & 2 show respectively that it's mostly about the quality of writing and storytelling than anything related to the dialogue system itself.

[Xewaka]

FedericoV wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

Therefore...prudent to create lot's of save points.

Yet having to constantly reload because the paraphrase has misled you again and you said the opposite of what you meant is very annoying.

Honestly, I've got more reload issues with DA:O than ME2. Each system has problems of ambiguity. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the wheel or the paraphrase system. ME1 & 2 show respectively that it's mostly about the quality of writing and storytelling than anything related to the dialogue system itself.

I didn't. As I mentioned before, I play with spanish text and english voices and full subtitles. The ambiguity in translation is much more pronounced when using short phrases than the full sentence. Thus, the game is much less reliable with the paraphrases than with full sentences. It is another layer of the problem that isn't mentioned usually, but that begets consideration.
Now, I don't intend to diss the massive job translating games with such extensive dialogue and text carries. It is simply that it is impossible to not lose something in translation, but the loss becomes much more aggravating with paraphrasing.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Xewaka wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't see how voiced dialogue = simplified.

Because you don't actually know what you will say, only a short paraphrase that can easily be misleading, so you'll end up picking choices based on the icon rather than on the text.
On Origins, you read each reply to make a choice. DA 2 will probably go "Sarcastic, sarcastic, flirt, sarcastic" for most people, as if you try to trust the paraphrase you'll be dissapointed sooner than later.

It'll give a short version of the dialogue like in ME, but also add an annotation showing the general attitude the player will have when choosing the dialogue. 

Seriously, the expense of a fully written, mute text is WELL worth it considering you can actually have a voice this time; something that will give a ridiculous amount of characterisation to Hawke, AND actually make the conversations feel dynamic and deep, not one sided.

I fully hope it has nothing to do with the ME paraphrase. I truly hope so. I'd like my character to actually say what I intend him to say.
However, do not try to play Voice Acting as an advantage. Because of voice acting, the choice of race had to go. The drawback overweights the benefit by a metric ton.

I like how you took that out of context to fit your own argument.

And DA2 will be a hell of alot more immersive now the character has a voice. In a game like fallout where exploration is the main part of the game, the character does not need a voice. But when the core part of the game is the story, the character needs a voice, the story suffers so much with a mute protagonist.

[Xewaka]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I like how you took that out of context to fit your own argument.

And DA2 will be a hell of alot more immersive now the character has a voice. In a game like fallout where exploration is the main part of the game, the character does not need a voice. But when the core part of the game is the story, the character needs a voice, the story suffers so much with a mute protagonist.

Inmersion is a loaded word. For example, I find the silent protagonist more inmersive, because a voiced protagonist adds another layer of barrier between me and the world.
You may look up to see the additional problems that paraphrase brings that  aren't usually considered.

[Eleinehmm]

Xewaka wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I like how you took that out of context to fit your own argument.

And DA2 will be a hell of alot more immersive now the character has a voice. In a game like fallout where exploration is the main part of the game, the character does not need a voice. But when the core part of the game is the story, the character needs a voice, the story suffers so much with a mute protagonist.

Inmersion is a loaded word. For example, I find the silent protagonist more inmersive, because a voiced protagonist adds another layer of barrier between me and the world.
You may look up to see the additional problems that paraphrase brings that  aren't usually considered.

I agree - Immersion is a very personal thing - You can't say that a certan feature makes a game more immersive for all the players.

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:33 .

[Xewaka]

Eleinehmm wrote...

I agree - Immersion is a very personal thing - You can't say that a certan feature makes a game more immersive for all the players.

This is a forum. Everything I read I assume to be the poster's opinion, and nothing else, unless it's a news post or something like that.
You might have noticed the reasons I gave as to why the dialogue wheel breaks my inmersion. You can find them valid points or not, but they still are exposed for consideration.

Modifié par Xewaka, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[Eleinehmm]

Xewaka wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

I agree - Immersion is a very personal thing - You can't say that a certan feature makes a game more immersive for all the players.

This is a forum. Everything I read I assume to be the poster's opinion, and nothing else, unless it's a news post or something like that.
You might have noticed the reasons I gave as to why the dialogue wheel breaks my inmersion. You can find them valid points or not, but they still are exposed for consideration.

True - I wasn't arguing with you - I was talking with the previous poster who said that  "DA2 will be a hell of alot more immersive now the character has a voice." The passage, or at least that is how I read it, implies that there is some kind of universal “immersion” that can be objectively measured.

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 21 novembre 2010 - 02:00 .

[Waage25]

Man the PR people who are associated with Bioware are crap.



So they get Kotaku a big gaming site to write a fluff piece for them (not uncommon) and becaus they want that extra millions sold through the PC they are trying to make it some what PC friendly.



All this by it self is perfectly fine and something any PR company would do.

NOW her is the problem.

First they get Kotaku to write it for them. Now it is true Kotaku is a big site the problem is that is a mostly a console SITE with very little PC news if any, but that by it self is not a HUGE problem in any way.



The issues start when you read the Article.

The entire thing is about what the PC version have lost and there's nothing in the ENTIRE article about what is gained and what will be better for the PC version in any way.



Who ever is in charge of the PR department of bioware needs to learn how to speak to some one else then the console people.



PC gamers are not the same breed of gamers so you have to use a different approach and sites to get your msg across.

[Eleinehmm]

Waage25 wrote...

Man the PR people who are associated with Bioware are crap.

So they get Kotaku a big gaming site to write a fluff piece for them (not uncommon) and becaus they want that extra millions sold through the PC they are trying to make it some what PC friendly.

All this by it self is perfectly fine and something any PR company would do.
NOW her is the problem.
First they get Kotaku to write it for them. Now it is true Kotaku is a big site the problem is that is a mostly a console SITE with very little PC news if any, but that by it self is not a HUGE problem in any way.

The issues start when you read the Article.
The entire thing is about what the PC version have lost and there's nothing in the ENTIRE article about what is gained and what will be better for the PC version in any way.

Who ever is in charge of the PR department of bioware needs to learn how to speak to some one else then the console people.

PC gamers are not the same breed of gamers so you have to use a different approach and sites to get your msg across.

That very well may be my personal impression, but the article is a little bit condescending towards the PC gamers (in a "don't worry guys, it is going to be as good as the consol version" way).  The true is that most of us want "different", "not as good as" - It's not because console are worse then PC, it's because of the different playstyles.

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:58 .

[philbo1965uk]

Eleinehmm wrote...

Waage25 wrote...

Man the PR people who are associated with Bioware are crap.

So they get Kotaku a big gaming site to write a fluff piece for them (not uncommon) and becaus they want that extra millions sold through the PC they are trying to make it some what PC friendly.

All this by it self is perfectly fine and something any PR company would do.
NOW her is the problem.
First they get Kotaku to write it for them. Now it is true Kotaku is a big site the problem is that is a mostly a console SITE with very little PC news if any, but that by it self is not a HUGE problem in any way.

The issues start when you read the Article.
The entire thing is about what the PC version have lost and there's nothing in the ENTIRE article about what is gained and what will be better for the PC version in any way.

Who ever is in charge of the PR department of bioware needs to learn how to speak to some one else then the console people.

PC gamers are not the same breed of gamers so you have to use a different approach and sites to get your msg across.

That very well may be my personal impression, but the article is a little bit condescending towards the PC gamers (in a "don't worry guys, it is going to be as good as the consol version" way).  The true is that most of us want "different", "not as good as" - It's not because console are worse then PC, it's because of the different playstyles.

Agree with that too.

[errant_knight]

Eleinehmm wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

I agree - Immersion is a very personal thing - You can't say that a certan feature makes a game more immersive for all the players.

This is a forum. Everything I read I assume to be the poster's opinion, and nothing else, unless it's a news post or something like that.
You might have noticed the reasons I gave as to why the dialogue wheel breaks my inmersion. You can find them valid points or not, but they still are exposed for consideration.

True - I wasn't arguing with you - I was talking with the previous poster who said that  "DA2 will be a hell of alot more immersive now the character has a voice." The passage, or at least that is how I read it, implies that there is some kind of universal “immersion” that can be objectively measured.

Very true. I'm not the only one who finds that a voiced character detracts greatly from immersion. That particular notion is entirely subjective.

[errant_knight]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Orizont wrote...

Does anyone else find it amusing how many times he repeats that the PC version will not be over-simplified? That pretty much seems to be the gist of the entire preview.
"Methinks thou dost protest too much."

In fairness, it does seem to be a concept people are struggling with.

Well, it depends on what one means by simplified. The dialogue is, the inventory is. If one is only talking about combat then we don't know, but if the rpg elements ar 'buried', then it is simplified.

I lol at the fact that you think voiced dialogue is simplified. It actually makes everything a hell of alot more complex, and adds characterisation to Hawke. It is the complete opposite of simplification. 

No, because you're picking an icon, not comparing options and picking the words you think will fit your character best. And one will probably end up picking the same icon over and over, depending on the character you're playing. It take zero though to pick a tone, not like choosing one's words.

[AlanC9]

Xewaka wrote...
Because you don't actually know what you will say, only a short paraphrase that can easily be misleading, so you'll end up picking choices based on the icon rather than on the text.

I will? News to me. I didn't have much trouble with paraphrases in either ME game. Why would I suddenly have trouble with them in DA2?

[AlanC9]

errant_knight wrote...

No, because you're picking an icon, not comparing options and picking the words you think will fit your character best. And one will probably end up picking the same icon over and over, depending on the character you're playing. It take zero though to pick a tone, not like choosing one's words.

Who's this "one" I keep hearing about? Did people really go through ME by just picking Renegade or Paragon? Well, I suppose some did, since we know that people played KotOR that way too, thanks to Bio always arranging their dialog options LS-neutral -DS --at least until the Temple Summit .

But you're saying that people who don't want to play that way will be forced to, and I haven't seen that.