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[Ziggeh]

errant_knight wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Orizont wrote...

Does anyone else find it amusing how many times he repeats that the PC version will not be over-simplified? That pretty much seems to be the gist of the entire preview.
"Methinks thou dost protest too much."

In fairness, it does seem to be a concept people are struggling with.

Well, it depends on what one means by simplified. The dialogue is, the inventory is. If one is only talking about combat then we don't know, but if the rpg elements ar 'buried', then it is simplified.

Essentially, we don't know. Anything. All of the changes contain the potential for simplification, but they also all contain the potential for increased complexity. It's all a matter of implementation, of which right now, we can't say about any of the changes. And that? That, people are clearly having problems grasping.

[KhorinShizucor]

Well, I think one reason some people dislike several of the changes in DAII is because they were implemented in ME and they didn't like how they worked in that game.

Modifié par KhorinShizucor, 21 novembre 2010 - 06:05 .

[Ziggeh]

KhorinShizucor wrote...

Well, I think one reason some people dislike several of the changes in DAII is because they were implemented in ME and they didn't like how they worked in that game.

Off the top of my head I can't think of one that will work in the same way.

[Apollo Starflare]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

KhorinShizucor wrote...

Well, I think one reason some people dislike several of the changes in DAII is because they were implemented in ME and they didn't like how they worked in that game.

Off the top of my head I can't think of one that will work in the same way.

None do, but some are very similar (the dialogue wheel, companion outfits) hence the negative comparisons from those who didn't like it in ME2. The thing is, from what I can see the DA2 team are trying to improve on those features anyway so it seems daft to criticise based off the ME2 implementation of them. The one thing I'm not keen on is one set outfit per person for ten years, but Mike Laidlaw did hint that there would be exceptions.

[errant_knight]

AlanC9 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

No, because you're picking an icon, not comparing options and picking the words you think will fit your character best. And one will probably end up picking the same icon over and over, depending on the character you're playing. It take zero though to pick a tone, not like choosing one's words.

Who's this "one" I keep hearing about? Did people really go through ME by just picking Renegade or Paragon? Well, I suppose some did, since we know that people played KotOR that way too, thanks to Bio always arranging their dialog options LS-neutral -DS --at least until the Temple Summit .

But you're saying that people who don't want to play that way will be forced to, and I haven't seen that.

I didn't phrase that very well, but I was running late for work. Basically, I always play good, so I'm always going to be picking the 'nice' option, unless I'm talking to a real a-hole. There was still plenty to think about with text dialogue, thinking about the options and how a  given character would react to those words. And given the possible number of possibilities, conversations are still interesting after many playthroughs. Much of the time, the choices couldn't be easily fit into the kind of catagories the the icons would seem to represent.. Anyway, this is both less interesting and more limiting.

[AlanC9]

But if you always pick nice options, what is there to think about? How many times did DAO, or any other game, offer multiple "nice" options?

[errant_knight]

AlanC9 wrote...

But if you always pick nice options, what is there to think about? How many times did DAO, or any other game, offer multiple "nice" options?

Because you didn't know which choice would achieve what result. It required a little thought. Now that aspect of the game has been removed entirely. We no longer have to think at all, we just push the button indicating the effect we want to achieve.

[Malanek]

errant_knight wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But if you always pick nice options, what is there to think about? How many times did DAO, or any other game, offer multiple "nice" options?

Because you didn't know which choice would achieve what result. It required a little thought. Now that aspect of the game has been removed entirely. We no longer have to think at all, we just push the button indicating the effect we want to achieve.

Thats right. Would the Bhelen-Harrowmount decision come with an icon? It might not but the point will still stand to some degree where the icons are used. In ME I suspect one would be paragon, one renegade. If as a designer you want to encourage a moral greyness (which DAO was hinting at) you would not be using these icons. The Witcher was actually pretty good at this, the best aspect of the game was trying to play through as a "good guy".

[Dave of Canada]

Malanek999 wrote...

Thats right. Would the Bhelen-Harrowmount decision come with an icon?

... how? You're given a choice between two factions, chosing Bhelen isn't going to have an icon indicating your choice is sarcastic.

[Slayer299]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
Well, it depends on what one means by simplified. The dialogue is, the inventory is. If one is only talking about combat then we don't know, but if the rpg elements ar 'buried', then it is simplified.
Essentially, we don't know. Anything. All of the changes contain the potential for simplification, but they also all contain the potential for increased complexity. It's all a matter of implementation, of which right now, we can't say about any of the changes. And that? That, people are clearly having problems grasping.

That's not true however, we actually *do* know things about DA2. You're right that nobody knows about the implentation on all the changes (inventory, combat, voiced dialogue to name a few), but it's not a lack of or an inability to grasp things. We have been shown pieces of combat and other areas and between what is seen and said by both devs and previewers is what is so very troubling.

[Malanek]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Thats right. Would the Bhelen-Harrowmount decision come with an icon?

... how? You're given a choice between two factions, chosing Bhelen isn't going to have an icon indicating your choice is sarcastic.

You really should have quoted the rest of what I said. Why couldn't it have an icon? There are more choices than sarcastic. If it was in ME it would be either a paragon or renegade choice. And even if it didn't have an icon, it was an extreme example, there are other things that can be said where you want to figure out how to appease someone, deceive someone etc.

[AlanC9]

errant_knight wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But if you always pick nice options, what is there to think about? How many times did DAO, or any other game, offer multiple "nice" options?

Because you didn't know which choice would achieve what result. It required a little thought. Now that aspect of the game has been removed entirely. We no longer have to think at all, we just push the button indicating the effect we want to achieve.

The icons indicate tone. If you're saying that we now can instantly tell what the tone of a line is going to be rather than trying to figure it out from the text, I guess I agree. But this means that it's harder to control your character in the old system, not easier, since you don't automatically know what his tone is going to be. This seems to be the complete opposite of the usual complaint, so I'm wondering if I've completely misunderstood you.

[Apollo Starflare]

AlanC9 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But if you always pick nice options, what is there to think about? How many times did DAO, or any other game, offer multiple "nice" options?

Because you didn't know which choice would achieve what result. It required a little thought. Now that aspect of the game has been removed entirely. We no longer have to think at all, we just push the button indicating the effect we want to achieve.

The icons indicate tone. If you're saying that we now can instantly tell what the tone of a line is going to be rather than trying to figure it out from the text, I guess I agree. But this means that it's harder to control your character in the old system, not easier, since you don't automatically know what his tone is going to be. This seems to be the complete opposite of the usual complaint, so I'm wondering if I've completely misunderstood you.

Yeah I often see people annoyed at how particularly the dialogue wheel paraphrase system has led them to pick an action more renegade/evil than they intended, or to say something in a way that was unexpected, the icons are just there to help with that. I don't see the problem with it, didn't they say there wouldn't even be icons for major decisions (such as the Harrowmont example above)?

It's not going to be a case of just clicking symbols, and really if you are detirmined to play through as a complete paragon of virtue in a Bioware game then you could simply always pick the upper dialogue choice. I believe they even structure it that way. The point is it never did involve much thought being one of the extremes, unless you made of a point of considering choices anyway or something. There will be plenty of moral greyness in DA2 I'm sure, if anything I'm expecting more than DAO.

[AlanC9]

filaminstrel wrote...
I wouldn't say removed entirely. You can still give it thought if you want. If you do you might find yourself occasionally (or often) disagreeing with the devs' idea about what is diplomatic, sarcastic, or whatever. I know I've quite a few times been irked by how things were classified into either Paragon or Renegade in ME. Hopefully they will be competent enough in assigning tones that most people who do think about it will agree with most of the decisions they make regarding which tones to assign to which bits of dialog.

I have wondered whether this diplomatic/sarcastic/aggressive system would just play out in practice like the Paragon/Renegade system with a new name. I think it will, in the sense that the devs are deciding the tone and explicitly "canonizing" it by telling you what the tone is, leaving whether you agree with it or not as the only thing for you to decide. So if you disagree with their conclusions about it and then the game plays out based on their conclusions anyway, and if it happens often, it can be annoying.

How often do people disagree about the tone of a voiced line, really? However the actor said it is the tone.. It's a little different from Paragon/Renegade that way

[FedericoV]

errant_knight wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But if you always pick nice options, what is there to think about? How many times did DAO, or any other game, offer multiple "nice" options?

Because you didn't know which choice would achieve what result. It required a little thought. Now that aspect of the game has been removed entirely. We no longer have to think at all, we just push the button indicating the effect we want to achieve.

But what you're calling "little thought" was just metagaming and not roleplaying. Choosing the best series of otpions to obtain the best result in terms of reaction of the NPCs (and bonus and xp). In games with cinematic dialogue, voiced NPCs and silent protagonist like DA:O, you allways face the same situation: to deliver the cinematic they have to stress and invest on the reactions of NPCs (because your charachter is silent and cannot deliver any cinematic at all if not raising his eyebrow).

If you add a point system on top of that with bonus and xp granted as benefit when you agree with NPCs, you obtain DA:O's system that really pushes player to metagame dialogues instead of roleplaying them.

In a game where your charachter is able to express himself visually, at least on the same level of NPCs, you are no longer a passive observer of NPC's reactions and since the player's charachter can deliver the cinematic too, the writer/devs have no longer to build all the system around the reactions of your NPCs and player are more free to roleplay  and focus on their personal reactions.  

PSI: I suppose that in term of dialogue scheme's, the writer have not changed their work at all: I'm pretty sure that even in DA:O, each dialogue option was labelled just like DA2 (I mean, "flirtly", "nice", etc. etc.).

PSII: Bioware has been in to cinematic dialogue long before ME franchise. Since Kotor at least.

Modifié par FedericoV, 22 novembre 2010 - 08:33 .

[Crystal Evans]

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[Sylvius the Mad]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Could be. What I'm thinking is the way you could look around the entire map / area in Icewind Dale / Baldur's Gate, unlocked from your party.

If DAO allowed that they would have had to implement a fog of war.  Otherwise you could have scouted ahead with zero danger.

I would have preferred a fully moveable camera with a fog of war, but lacking that the limited movement camera was still a vast improvement over a camera with a locked focus.

I can't believe they're doing that.  I won't believe it until I see it for myself, because it's an idiotic decision.

[Sylvius the Mad]

FedericoV wrote...

Bioware has been in to cinematic dialogue long before ME franchise. Since Kotor at least.

And it's been a mistake every single time.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Bioware has been in to cinematic dialogue long before ME franchise. Since Kotor at least.

And it's been a mistake every single time.

Most will say they are moving forward and giving voice to characters adds a lot of depth. But there are always those resistant to change.

I can pretty much guarantee you BW won't be making any more voiceless character RPG's, so you have to adapt or stop playing their games.

[Mordaedil]

If I wanted to play Fable, I'd just buy Fable 3 for christmas. In fact, I think I'll do that instead of getting DA2.



So long, everybody!

[FedericoV]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Bioware has been in to cinematic dialogue long before ME franchise. Since Kotor at least.

And it's been a mistake every single time.

Mistake? I think that Bioware would be very glad to make such mistakes in each game they realize.

In my opinion, the focus on cinematic storytelling has improved Bioware's games and set them apart from the competition. Having said that, since in your opinion they have been mistaken for something like 10 years, I really don't understand your interest in their games . Since, you know... Bioware has became *THE* developer of cinematic and storydriven RPgames.

If you want to play another Ultima V, Bioware is not the company to look at. Sure that it's not YOUR mistake?

Modifié par FedericoV, 22 novembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Atakuma]

Mordaedil wrote...

If I wanted to play Fable, I'd just buy Fable 3 for christmas. In fact, I think I'll do that instead of getting DA2.

So long, everybody!

If you wanted to play fable then I imagine you'd be pretty bummed playing DA2