1008 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

At no point in DAO did I feel my tone was misrepresented by the game.  At no point was the NPC's reaction such that they must have been responding to a tone I didn't intend.

I've gone through the game many times.  I've selected exactly the same line with vastly different intended tones, and the game worked every time.

And when I play ME2 I never have any problem with Shepard saying something that I did not intend.

The fact that one of us doesn't experience a problem does not prove that there is no problem.

That the NPC attempts to measure the tone is not evidence that the tone exists.

Then what is the NPC measuring?

[Monica83]

The problem Alan is that...



Schematic Paraphrase system experience ala mass effect can fit well for you but not all people have the same thinking when they chose a dialogue line.. So for you can fit well for someonelse not...



Full written answers help a lot in that you read the answer so you have more accurancy and you can't do wrong.. And if you have a your created character you have the freedoom limited of course to build your character psichology.. With a schematic dialogue system ala mass effect you can't

[Dave of Canada]

Monica83 wrote...

The problem Alan is that...

Schematic Paraphrase system experience ala mass effect can fit well for you but not all people have the same thinking when they chose a dialogue line.. So for you can fit well for someonelse not...

Full written answers help a lot in that you read the answer so you have more accurancy and you can't do wrong.. And if you have a your created character you have the freedoom limited of course to build your character psichology.. With a schematic dialogue system ala mass effect you can't

Oh really? I've had quite a few times in DAO where a line was taken out of context from the way I read it. Both sides have problems and either way you're limited by a writer. Tone indication (for me) will probably help more to understand what the writer intends.

[Monica83]

Really? You think a schematic dialogue system help better? Since if you had problem with the full writed answer how can be a schematic dialogue system help better?..



That can't help simple...

Accurancy is always better than general line.. And this is a fact

[Bryy_Miller]

Monica83 wrote...

Accuracy is always better than general line.. And this is a fact

Except that you just threw out two concepts without any context whatsoever, which is the problem with non-linear systems such as branching dialogue (or any dialogue in general). It's literally impossible to apply the way real world dialogue works to a fictional one. Unless you were stating that every single computer game ever works better with pre-written dialogue, which is hardly a fact.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:47 .

[Vena_86]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

At no point in DAO did I feel my tone was misrepresented by the game.  At no point was the NPC's reaction such that they must have been responding to a tone I didn't intend.

I've gone through the game many times.  I've selected exactly the same line with vastly different intended tones, and the game worked every time.

And when I play ME2 I never have any problem with Shepard saying something that I did not intend.

The fact that one of us doesn't experience a problem does not prove that there is no problem.

Actually there are many people who complained that Shepard said or did unintended things. Example: Grunt tells me he hates turians. The dialogue wheel says "What about Garrus?". Ok it's a legit question.... so Shepard says something like "If you piece of s*** only glance at Garrus, I will bash your f***in' skull in!".
I was like "hey calm down" to my own character.

I like the dialogue wheel, but it should be clearer in future games what is going to happen with the responses.

Modifié par Vena_86, 26 novembre 2010 - 10:50 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

The problem Alan is that...

Schematic Paraphrase system experience ala mass effect can fit well for you but not all people have the same thinking when they chose a dialogue line.. So for you can fit well for someonelse not...

Full written answers help a lot in that you read the answer so you have more accurancy and you can't do wrong.. And if you have a your created character you have the freedoom limited of course to build your character psichology.. With a schematic dialogue system ala mass effect you can't

Oh really? I've had quite a few times in DAO where a line was taken out of context from the way I read it. Both sides have problems and either way you're limited by a writer. Tone indication (for me) will probably help more to understand what the writer intends.

I'm with Dave on this one. In both ME and DAO I had to reload a few times because I was expecting something completely different.

What do you mean by created character? That you can only play as a human? So you don't see Shepard as your own created character? 

[In Exile]

Monica83 wrote...

Full written answers help a lot in that you read the answer so you have more accurancy and you can't do wrong.. And if you have a your created character you have the freedoom limited of course to build your character psichology.. With a schematic dialogue system ala mass effect you can't

But the full answer does not tell me if I said something sarcastically or not. I wanted to mock Morrigain at one point and she took it to be an indication of flirting.

The line was "Did all the bad touching upset you?" which I took to be a mockery of her inability to understand handshakes. Then she does that head leaning back "sultry" look and says "That sort of touching I could understand".

And I'm just like WTF? 

[Kasces]

Vena_86 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

At no point in DAO did I feel my tone was misrepresented by the game.  At no point was the NPC's reaction such that they must have been responding to a tone I didn't intend.

I've gone through the game many times.  I've selected exactly the same line with vastly different intended tones, and the game worked every time.

And when I play ME2 I never have any problem with Shepard saying something that I did not intend.

The fact that one of us doesn't experience a problem does not prove that there is no problem.

Actually there are many people who complained that Shepard said or did unintended things. Example: Grunt tells me he hates turians. The dialogue wheel says "What about Garrus?". Ok it's a legit question.... so Shepard says something like "If you piece of s*** only glance at Garrus, I will bash your f***in' skull in!".
I was like "hey calm down" to my own character.

I like the dialogue wheel, but it should be clearer in future games what is going to happen with the responses.

To comment on that Mass Effect part...

1) Shepard's delivery wasn't nearly that violent. lol

2) Imo that is more of a problem with the player than the paraphrasing, because it is no secret through all of Mass Effect, game 1 and 2, tone can basically be broken down to upper left/right "Paragon", lower left/right ""Renegade" and the middle neutral and probably a question. The tone in Mass Effect can 99.8% of the time always be broken down like that so while the question in itself is a legit question, I wouldn't be suprised at Shepard's reaction, and I infact wasn't, because I know I am picking a Renegade area. 

Modifié par Kasces, 26 novembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Qset]

I would be fine adding a tone icon to the dialogue options if they listed the full text of what I was about to say alongside. I want to read the words I am about to utter and then choose those first and then colour with tone - the same set of words can vary alot in meaning due to tone. However, tone could also be only of minor signficance in many cases and so the actual words are the most important. I don't like the paraphrase system unless it really is going to reflect accurately what the words I am about to utter are and to get that - why not just give me the words.



I didn't really like that system in ME2 either - I found the experience rather too black/white and simplistic to the point that you had to play either full on paragon or full on regenade to actually be able to influence a conversation later on - the world id hardly so black/white

Thats not to say that the dialogue system in DAO didn't have its flaw, it did but for me they were a bit more hidden and didn't effect my gameplay in such a polarising fashion. I could take the middle ground or go to either extreme depending on the particular circumstances and still have success at influencing via dialogue.



Given this is the direction DA2 seems to be heading I can only conclude that they must have had a lot of feedback that there was too much reading/dialogue in the game and some folks preferred to just click an icon blue or red and get on with the fighting....



Separately, I like the idea of a voiced pc, a bit concerned whether I will like the voice, but hey, I trust bioware to pick a solid VA.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Then what is the NPC measuring?

Nothing.  The NPCs attempt is folly.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

Full written answers help a lot in that you read the answer so you have more accurancy and you can't do wrong.. And if you have a your created character you have the freedoom limited of course to build your character psichology.. With a schematic dialogue system ala mass effect you can't

But the full answer does not tell me if I said something sarcastically or not. I wanted to mock Morrigain at one point and she took it to be an indication of flirting.

The line was "Did all the bad touching upset you?" which I took to be a mockery of her inability to understand handshakes. Then she does that head leaning back "sultry" look and says "That sort of touching I could understand".

And I'm just like WTF?

I still don't understand your reaction given your inputs.

Doesn't Morrigan's misunderstanding make the mockery even more effective?

[Marionetten]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

Full
written answers help a lot in that you read the answer so you have more
accurancy and you can't do wrong.. And if you have a your created
character you have the freedoom limited of course to build your
character psichology.. With a schematic dialogue system ala mass effect
you can't

But the full answer does not tell me if I said
something sarcastically or not. I wanted to mock Morrigain at one point
and she took it to be an indication of flirting.

The line was
"Did all the bad touching upset you?" which I took to be a mockery of
her inability to understand handshakes. Then she does that head leaning
back "sultry" look and says "That sort of touching I could understand".

And I'm just like WTF?

I still don't understand your reaction given your inputs.

Doesn't Morrigan's misunderstanding make the mockery even more effective?

If anything, Morrigan successfully deflected the shoddy attempt at mockery.

[burning salaradile]

I am pretty darn sure they have announced a new tactical camera. Go look around. I mean seriously, its common knowledge. At first, they said they would not be having the tactical camera make a return, but then they changed their minds. I can't figure out why there are so many forums that say things like this. 

[burning salaradile]

About the complaints about there not being a tactical camera, that is.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Marionetten wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

But the full answer does not tell me if I said something sarcastically or not. I wanted to mock Morrigain at one point and she took it to be an indication of flirting.

The line was "Did all the bad touching upset you?" which I took to be a mockery of her inability to understand handshakes. Then she does that head leaning back "sultry" look and says "That sort of touching I could understand".

And I'm just like WTF?

I still don't understand your reaction given your inputs.

Doesn't Morrigan's misunderstanding make the mockery even more effective?

If anything, Morrigan successfully deflected the shoddy attempt at mockery.

And that's another explanation.  Maybe Morrigan was mocking you.

In Exile, I wonder if the problem here is that you think your interpretation of the people around you is always correct.

[philbo1965uk]

Touche...
We've endured a full week of you arguing semantics..relentlessly banging on about Tone in a Kotaku preview thread.

Qset wrote...

Given this is the direction DA2 seems to be heading I can only conclude that they must have had a lot of feedback that there was too much reading/dialogue in the game and some folks preferred to just click an icon blue or red and get on with the fighting....

Separately, I like the idea of a voiced pc, a bit concerned whether I will like the voice, but hey, I trust bioware to pick a solid VA.

I don't think there's any truth to that, especially with the lack of such evidence.

[Qset]

philbo1965uk wrote...

Touche...
We've endured a full week of you arguing semantics..relentlessly banging on about Tone in a Kotaku preview thread.

Qset wrote...

Given this is the direction DA2 seems to be heading I can only conclude that they must have had a lot of feedback that there was too much reading/dialogue in the game and some folks preferred to just click an icon blue or red and get on with the fighting....

Separately, I like the idea of a voiced pc, a bit concerned whether I will like the voice, but hey, I trust bioware to pick a solid VA.

I don't think there's any truth to that, especially with the lack of such evidence.

Yes fair point, no current evidence DA2 will end up like this. Let us hope there never will be any evidence.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I still don't understand your reaction given your inputs.

Doesn't Morrigan's misunderstanding make the mockery even more effective?

No.

Marionetten wrote...
If anything, Morrigan successfully
deflected the shoddy attempt at mockery.

By saying something incoherent and entirely unrelated to the discussion? Well, the red banna is the driver education tommorow.

That doesn't make sense. Mockery is just derision or ridicule. Saying she can't handle physical contact is mocking her. Her replying that she likes sex is incoherent.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
And that's another explanation. 
Maybe Morrigan was mocking you.

In Exile, I wonder if the
problem here is that you think your interpretation of the people around
you is always correct.

No, that doesn't make sense, because her reply has nothing to do with what mockery is.

As for thinking I'm right, that's not the case. Again, in video-games, when it is impossible to correct onself or engage in a process of correction, your only options are to assume characters are insane or you, the player, is wrong, so you need to replay the entire interaction.

[Marionetten]

In Exile wrote...

By saying something incoherent and entirely unrelated to the discussion? Well, the red banna is the driver education tommorow.

That doesn't make sense. Mockery is just derision or ridicule. Saying she can't handle physical contact is mocking her. Her replying that she likes sex is incoherent.

You attempt to mock her for not enjoying physical contact. The "bad touching" part being obvious sexual innuendo intended to take her off guard.  She replies by saying that she's all for that kind of physical contact in an attempt to take your character off guard.

Clearly she was successful.

[In Exile]

Marionetten wrote...
You attempt to mock her for not enjoying physical contact. The "bad touching" part being obvious sexual innuendo intended to take her off guard.  She replies by saying that she's all for that kind of physical contact in an attempt to take your character off guard.

Clearly she was successful.

I disagree. The bad touching part I never took to be sexual innuendo. That it is proves the initial point - that DA:O had cases that were no clearer than ME despite the literal content.

And once again, mockery has nothing to do with taking you off guard. More to the point, Morrigan telling you she likes sex is about as likely to take you off guard as Leliana saying the she likes the Maker. Way to surprise me with the thing you go on about every time you talk about men.

[Marionetten]

In Exile wrote...

I disagree. The bad touching part I never took to be sexual innuendo. That it is proves the initial point - that DA:O had cases that were no clearer than ME despite the literal content.

... Are you really denying the sexual context of bad touching here?

In Exile wrote...

And once again, mockery has nothing to do with taking you off guard. More to the point, Morrigan telling you she likes sex is about as likely to take you off guard as Leliana saying the she likes the Maker. Way to surprise me with the thing you go on about every time you talk about men.

Of course it does. When you mock someone you want your mockery to be effective instead of just brushed off. In this case Morrigan simply brushed it off and brought the sexual innuendo to another level. As it obviously startled you I'd say she won that round.

[Dave of Canada]

So.... when the game decides to completely ignore what you think you told it, it's completely okay for the game to work that way? I don't see why that's any different from the ME1 scenes where Shepard pulls out a gun when you say "I don't like you". It's roughly the same.

[Marionetten]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So.... when the game decides to completely ignore what you think you told it, it's completely okay for the game to work that way? I don't see why that's any different from the ME1 scenes where Shepard pulls out a gun when you say "I don't like you". It's roughly the same.

I fail to see how the game is ignoring the statement. If anything, the disappointment seems to stem from the inability to control Morrigan's reaction. Different characters react differently. While In Exile might not have understood the sexual context I obviously did. Why wouldn't Morrigan? 

And no, it's not roughly the same. It'd be roughly the same if your character pulled out the murder knife and put it up against Morrigan's throat whilst yelling "HOW'S THIS FOR BAD TOUCHING!?"

[In Exile]

Marionetten wrote...
... Are you really denying the sexual context of bad touching here?

Absolutely. I said this like three times by now. I don't see how ''bad'' touching in any way implies sexual touching, or sexual assault, or anything of the sort.

Here is the interaction:

• It’s not “human” society. You’re in Ferelden. (Humans only)
• I have no idea. I'm not human. (Elf and Dwarf)
• Touching? Like a handshake?
• Were you upset by all the bad touching?

Putting aside that I can't see how bad touching by itself is sexual, given the context of the conversation, and your replies, there is nothing to suggest sexual content at all until Morrigan says the line.

I don't see how this is any different from the Mass Effect complaint. More to the point, I don't understand what your objection is - that I should have understood what bad touching meant? 

Of course it does. When you mock someone you want your mockery to be effective instead of just brushed off. In this case Morrigan simply brushed it off and brought the sexual innuendo to another level. As it obviously startled you I'd say she won that round.

What stunned me is that she took bad touching to be sexual.

And, again, mockery =! startling. If she started braying like a donkey that would startle me too, but that wouldn't means he won the round.