187 réponses à ce sujet

[Stick668]

Xewaka wrote...

Ah yes. How happy I was to find out that on Baldur's Gate II disarming traps and picking locks gave out XP (as opposed to BG I). It validated my rogue choice. I always thought the sthealthy route should earn more XP than the kill-em-all route.

Heh. I recall farming insane amounts of XP by using my surplus wealth to buy up scrolls and have all the casters learn every available spell.

I'm also rather fond of the "XP for goal completion instead of mass-murder" approach, but in a party-based game... well, not everybody can sneak to the goal. Having most of your crew stand around and wait while Sam Fisher does all the work would probably get dull. 

Modifié par Stick668, 18 novembre 2010 - 01:42 .

[Aermas]

I always liked KOTOR's bash principal, if you're untrained & can't pick the lock hit it & it will open & most likely break something you want.
I want a "Knock" spell like in D&D

Modifié par Aermas, 18 novembre 2010 - 01:44 .

[Cyberfrog81]

"Allow me, I could do that for you."

Cute the first time, not so much the 20th. Rogue is my favourite DAO class, but nevertheless I might have preferred it if mages and warriors could open the occasional chest as well - maybe with a risk of destroying items, as has been mentioned.

Given loot that doesn't suck 99.1% of the time AND given companion rogues that are better (AI-controlled) fighters, I'll probably be fine with Rogue-only lockpicking though.

[PsychoBlonde]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Lockpicking and trap disarms are still rogue-only abilities. They're primarily based on cunning this time around (rather than requiring talent points, which I felt was a little unbalanced with the otherwise combat-focused talent tree structure), though certain magical effects from equipment can help.

Similar to Origins, party-member rogues can disarm traps and pop locks if your main character is not a rogue, and also similar, there are XP rewards for the party for doing so.

Thanks Mr. Laidlaw!  Is stealth still an ability or is it a skill now?

In past party-based games, I was okay with the "rogue in party" thing.  (Assuming they EFFING GAVE YOU A ROGUE NPC SOMEWHERE THAT DIDN'T SUCK.  Which I'm assuming won't be a problem here.)  What really got me in DA:O were the sections where you had no possibility of having a rogue party member (Ostagar, Arl Eamon's estate), but there were STILL LOCKED CHESTS.  WTF.  Due to that one love letter being inside Arl Eamon's estate in a locked chest, you could not finish that Correspondus Interruptus quest unless you were playing a rogue.  ARGH.

XP for opening chests/disarming traps is okay, I guess--except when the game dumps you into a random encounter zone with 80 bazillion traps between you and the mobs and you LOSE A BUNCH OF XP because your companions charge the monsters while the game is still loading and SET OFF ALL THE TRAPS.  I'm thinking that, if you feel the worst consequence of your companions setting off a trap is the fact that you just lost some XP and not, you know, the fact that they just got BLOWN UP, something is screwy somewhere.

Lockpicking as skill is okay also, I guess.  A lot of the skills in DA:O felt like filler, though.  Well, and "you need to put points in this in order to do that one quest".  Stealth didn't even feel like filler to me, it felt completely pointless.  I tried making rogues and using it, and I discovered that it just slowed everything way down and the end result was identical to when I didn't bother.

I actually like traps the way they're done in DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) because they actually resemble real traps.  They're not strange enemy-sensing traps.  They hit monsters that run incautiously through them.  On higher difficulties, they will insta-kill just about anyone, but you can physically avoid them via timing and so forth.

DA:O just felt really goofy with use of traps, especially since I generally didn't find them until after I'd pulled all the mobs out and killed them.  THEN I would run into their set-piece traps.  Oh, a tripwire.  Foom.  Whatever. 

[Maria Caliban]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

"Allow me, I could do that for you."

Cute the first time, not so much the 20th.

I thought it was cute the 20th time as well as the 200th. I sometimes clicked locks just to hear her say that and I'm not the only one.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:03 .

[Fortlowe]

I wonder will stealth come into it's own this time? I didn't get the impression in DA:O that it was useful beyond reducing hostility in combat. I enjoyed the Slim Cauldry quests, but I would have loved them if I really just had to use stealth to fully accomplish the mission.

[PsychoBlonde]

After thinking a bit, I would like it if you could purposefully set traps off from a distance instead of having to either run through them or run right up to them and disarm them. So, if you throw a fireball over a trap trigger or shoot it, it sets the stupid trap off, potentially harmlessly. It'd also help if rogues could see traps from further away (even better, tie how far away they can see the trap from to cunning or the Survival skill or both).

Addendum:  It'd be even cooler if you had alternate trap-dealing-with strategies depending on what class you were.  Warrior strategy:  Set it off, eat the damage.  Rogue strategy: Disarm it, or spot it and set it off on the bad guys.  Mage strategy:  Summon rat.  Make rat scout.  Boom.  EE EE EEE EEEEE EE. *mage puts out rat with a bucket of water*  Mages need a familiar or something.

I don't think you should get XP from disarming traps, however the game COULD give you trap parts which you could then use to either construct your own traps or sell for money. I'm not even really thrilled with the idea of the game giving you XP for every enemy you slaughter, since this also encourages ONE sort of behavior.

XP for codex entries? Excellent. XP for quest completions/goals completed? Right on. XP the first time you visit a given area? Sure. XP for talking to people? Maybe. XP for solving puzzles? Yep. Maybe even XP for getting loot. But not directly for killing stuff (or avoiding killing stuff) or disarming traps or opening locks.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:10 .

[Aermas]

PsychoBlonde has a good point, is the AI better at avoiding known traps? I hate when I find a set of traps & I'm in the middle of disarming them when my party sees enemies & runs over them.

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

"Allow me, I could do that for you."

Cute the first time, not so much the 20th.

I thought it was cute the 20th time as well as the 200th. I sometimes clicked locks just to hear her say that and I'm not the only one.

Well, it's better than what you get in DDO.  Click on locked door/chest. *rattle rattle rattle*.  Hit the "open look" icon on your quickbar.  "You are not facing the (locked object)."  Move character slightly.  Hit the "open lock" icon on your quickbar.  "No Target".  Hit TAB to select target.  Hit the "open lock" icon on your quickbar.  "The CLERIC HIRELING cannot be unlocked."  Click wildly on everything in view until you finally get the damn door selected.  *rattle rattle rattle* YES I KNOW IT'S LOCKED THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH.

And people wonder why it takes me so long to friggin' unlock stuff.

[Jarek_Cousland]

In Kotor 1 we had the bash ability, in Kotor 2 they changed to where an item would break whenever you did it which was stupid, how is bashing ONLY the lock gonna break a supposedly super strong piece of armor? What its only strong if you wear it? Pshhh....


But yea I'd like a bash ability put in the game, no mods or DLC extra.


(anybody else find it wierd that the only lock we can break in Origins is Dwyns house lock? lol what a nub. :lol::lol:.)

[Trintrin86]

The only complaint I had about lockpicking in DA:O- If the Warden wasn't a Rogue you ended up missing out on items and experience in any Origin that had locked chests and in Ostegar because you didn't get a rogue with lockpicking ability until Lothering! Even Daveth didn't have these abilities (which I can only assume was an oversight). I hope the devs take this into account.

[Crimson Invictus]

Trintrin86 wrote...

The only complaint I had about lockpicking in DA:O- If the Warden wasn't a Rogue you ended up missing out on items and experience in any Origin that had locked chests and in Ostegar because you didn't get a rogue with lockpicking ability until Lothering! Even Daveth didn't have these abilities (which I can only assume was an oversight). I hope the devs take this into account.

I understand what you're driving at but the XP rewards and items from those chests are so low you'd barely notice the difference anyway. Rogues have very little going for them at the very start so little things like that make them seem a tad more useful. 

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:35 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Jarek_Cousland wrote...
(anybody else find it wierd that the only lock we can break in Origins is Dwyns house lock? lol what a nub. :lol::lol:.)

YES.  Given the JARRING difference between that magical lock that we can break, unlike EVERY OTHER LOCK IN THE GAME, I would have preferred that they let you get him to open the door by just knocking on it over and over and over until he got annoyed or something.  Something that was internally consistent with the game mechanics in the rest of the game anyway:

Dwyn's door:  (locked)
PC:  (Knock on the door)  Bang.  Bang.  (as an aside, was that the dumbest, most lethargic-looking knocking you've ever seen or what?  Sounded like a half-awake person with a hangover trying to convince their housemate to let them in the bathroom at 3am--only they're so out of it they're actually knocking on the closet.  ANYWAY.)
Dwyn's door:  (no response).
PC:  (Knock on the door)  Bang.  Bang.  Bang.
Dwyn's door: (you think you hear rustling noises)
PC:  (Knock on the door)  Ba-bang, ba-bang, ba-bang.
Dwyn's door: (muffled) What the hell is going on out there?
PC: (Knock on the door) Bang-ba-ba-bang-bang.  BANG BANG.
Dwyn's door:  (muffled)  It better not be those damn kids again!
PC: (Knock on the door)  PC proceeds to conduct an entire drum solo on the door, complete with kicks to simulate the bass drum and loud "tish!" noises.  It ends when Dwyn flings the door open and the PC punches him right in the face.  (You decide whether this was an accident or on purpose.)
Dwyn:  OUCH!! WHAT THE HELL?!?!
PC:  Oh, so you ARE in!

[Jarek_Cousland]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

YES.  Given the JARRING difference between that magical lock that we can break, unlike EVERY OTHER LOCK IN THE GAME, I would have preferred that they let you get him to open the door by just knocking on it over and over and over until he got annoyed or something.  Something that was internally consistent with the game mechanics in the rest of the game anyway:

Dwyn's door:  (locked)
PC:  (Knock on the door)  Bang.  Bang.  (as an aside, was that the dumbest, most lethargic-looking knocking you've ever seen or what?  Sounded like a half-awake person with a hangover trying to convince their housemate to let them in the bathroom at 3am--only they're so out of it they're actually knocking on the closet.  ANYWAY.)
Dwyn's door:  (no response).
PC:  (Knock on the door)  Bang.  Bang.  Bang.
Dwyn's door: (you think you hear rustling noises)
PC:  (Knock on the door)  Ba-bang, ba-bang, ba-bang.
Dwyn's door: (muffled) What the hell is going on out there?
PC: (Knock on the door) Bang-ba-ba-bang-bang.  BANG BANG.
Dwyn's door:  (muffled)  It better not be those damn kids again!
PC: (Knock on the door)  PC proceeds to conduct an entire drum solo on the door, complete with kicks to simulate the bass drum and loud "tish!" noises.  It ends when Dwyn flings the door open and the PC punches him right in the face.  (You decide whether this was an accident or on purpose.)
Dwyn:  OUCH!! WHAT THE HELL?!?!
PC:  Oh, so you ARE in!

I agree, being able to unleash the Hot for Teacher drum intro on anybodies door would get them to open it up.

That and being able to get that "acidental" punch off followed by a "Oh sorry bro, did that hurt?" line would be perfect.


Dwynn needs to get smacked.

[PsychoBlonde]

Jarek_Cousland wrote...

That and being able to get that "acidental" punch off followed by a "Oh sorry bro, did that hurt?" line would be perfect.


Dwynn needs to get smacked.

I think it would have been a big improvement over the weird scene I always got where my PC busted the dude's door down, then said "I didn't mean any harm" and his response was "Apology accepted.  Now get out."

Whut?  This happens often I take it?

[Jarek_Cousland]

"Oh man my fault dood. I meant to kick down the other Dwarf who has 2 goth henchmen's door. Man you'd be surprised how many of you there is here in Redcliffe."

[Ortaya Alevli]

I always liked the specialist mechanics and am glad to see they return in DA2. RPGs need more mundane tasks to spice things up. This whole talk-kill-kill-talk routine is so last millenium.

Personally I'm not exactly well-informed about BioWare's take on the concept of "rogue". If their rogues are simply warriors who favor finesse over brute force, fine. But I'd rather them shine at non-combat situations instead of fair fights. Doesn't seem to sit well with the new class differentiation philosophy.

And bombs, traps and poisons have always been underpowered and/or impractical in BioWare games. Be nice if they were actually worth the effort for a change.

[Jarek_Cousland]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I always liked the specialist mechanics and am glad to see they return in DA2. RPGs need more mundane tasks to spice things up. This whole talk-kill-kill-talk routine is so last millenium.
Personally I'm not exactly well-informed about BioWare's take on the concept of "rogue". If their rogues are simply warriors who favor finesse over brute force, fine. But I'd rather them shine at non-combat situations instead of fair fights. Doesn't seem to sit well with the new class differentiation philosophy.
And bombs, traps and poisons have always been underpowered and/or impractical in BioWare games. Be nice if they were actually worth the effort for a change.

a nicely timed acid flask or fire bomb can one hit certain enemies not just the weaker ones, or at least lower their health so they will be killed with one strike.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Jarek_Cousland wrote...

a nicely timed acid flask or fire bomb can one hit certain enemies not just the weaker ones, or at least lower their health so they will be killed with one strike.

Bombs deal around 80 damage minus the elemental resistance of the particular enemy.

Certainly much better than KotOR's 20-dmg frag grenades (and that was on a lucky day), but still underpowered when you consider your other options, especially on higher levels. Bomb damage stays the same throughout the game, which is a major drawback. And bombs are the best part of it; poisons and especially traps are even worse offenders.

[Kileyan]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Lockpicking and trap disarms are still rogue-only abilities. They're primarily based on cunning this time around (rather than requiring talent points, which I felt was a little unbalanced with the otherwise combat-focused talent tree structure), though certain magical effects from equipment can help.

Similar to Origins, party-member rogues can disarm traps and pop locks if your main character is not a rogue, and also similar, there are XP rewards for the party for doing so.

Thank you, that sounds like the best implentation of rogues and their skills i have seen in rpgs.

[PsychoBlonde]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

And bombs, traps and poisons have always been underpowered and/or impractical in BioWare games. Be nice if they were actually worth the effort for a change.

Well, I did use the stun grenades a lot in KotOR because they wouldn't gack my stupid followers and they stopped masses of ranged enemies from shooting the **** out of everyone before we could get up to them.  But other than that, no.

Traditional rogue staples are basically inherently unbalanced because the entire POINT of using this stuff is to screw over your opponents.  If it actually accomplishes that function, boom, you win the game.  And if it doesn't, you're back to stabbing them repeatedly in the buttocks until they fall over.

I sort of liked how grenades worked in Mass Effect--they were effective provided you could figure out how to throw the finicky bastards, but you could only carry so many so you couldn't rely on them all the time.  I think it'd be cool if they made traps really effective, but you can only make more at "camp" and can only carry so many at a time.  This would add an interesting strategy element and some more balance.  (I'd also prefer it if you could only do ANY crafting back at camp.  Stopping mid-battle to churn out a bunch of health poultices was just silly.  I got in the habit of carrying flasks around at all times so I could insta-craft any elfroots I stumbled across.)

[Aermas]

I wish we could only carry a certain number of Poultices. What potency & what kind could change but the number wouldn't

[PsychoBlonde]

Aermas wrote...

I wish we could only carry a certain number of Poultices. What potency & what kind could change but the number wouldn't

Great.  Now it really IS Dragon Effect.

[Ortaya Alevli]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Well, I did use the stun grenades a lot in KotOR because they wouldn't gack my stupid followers and they stopped masses of ranged enemies from shooting the **** out of everyone before we could get up to them.  But other than that, no.

Traditional rogue staples are basically inherently unbalanced because the entire POINT of using this stuff is to screw over your opponents.  If it actually accomplishes that function, boom, you win the game.  And if it doesn't, you're back to stabbing them repeatedly in the buttocks until they fall over.

I sort of liked how grenades worked in Mass Effect--they were effective provided you could figure out how to throw the finicky bastards, but you could only carry so many so you couldn't rely on them all the time.  I think it'd be cool if they made traps really effective, but you can only make more at "camp" and can only carry so many at a time.  This would add an interesting strategy element and some more balance.  (I'd also prefer it if you could only do ANY crafting back at camp.  Stopping mid-battle to churn out a bunch of health poultices was just silly.  I got in the habit of carrying flasks around at all times so I could insta-craft any elfroots I stumbled across.)

Well, first time I played Origins, Aedan and Iona wake up in the middle of the night, Iona decides to go check out what's going on in her undies, dies making the funniest gurgling I've ever heard in the game (bet it's better than Anders' what-is-his-name templar) and Aedan proceeds to slay the offenders. In his undies, of course. Then I was like, "why I'm trying to kill these fellows naked anyway?" and went on to equip him. As I left the inventory screen, poof! Aedan was in his leather skirt again, mid-animation.

That's Origins for ya.

Large Caltrop Trap takes way too much time to prepare and lure enemies on for 3 (yes, three) points of damage. That's what I'd like to see gone. If I can kill people in five minutes max using conventional means, traps should deal a hell of a lot of punishment for the effort I'm putting in. Or so I think.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

"Allow me, I could do that for you."

Cute the first time, not so much the 20th. Rogue is my favourite DAO class, but nevertheless I might have preferred it if mages and warriors could open the occasional chest as well - maybe with a risk of destroying items, as has been mentioned.

Also not-as-cute: Leli makes that claim, player switches to her, and still cannot unlock it.<_<

Assuming DAII's rogues have this "use me for locks" bark...could we have two?  One line for "can open" and another for "not yet"?  Or is that not possible with the current system to check lockpicking ability?