187 réponses à ce sujet

[Arrtis]

Stealing is a skill so why not lockpicking?

Let any character do it but have rogues/fighters capable of learning it faster with less penalty.

Like in you gain an passive ability which grants all ranks but master lockpick.Then have master lockpicker requirements be very high.

THey spend less than say a mage or a warrior/fighter who does not take the ability.

Of course you can make even more requirements to gain the ability such as needing to go far into the rogue kind of fighting styles to unlock.Or something like that.

[deuce985]

Lockpicking was fine in DA:O, IMO. While DA2 certainly would be better fit at getting rid of so much useless loot in chests, DA:O still had the option of gaining exp from locked chests. That alone was reason enough to have at least one Rogue in my party who could open any chest. Plus, generic loot was good at getting me those legendary items you had to break the bank for.

[Revan312]

dbankier wrote...

I prefer them being split into two classes, but if the proposed fighter class had all the same options as rogue and warrior, would it really be any different? The Fallout series, along with many other RPGs, has a classless system but I don't see that it makes it any less of an RPG.

But this game isn't classless, it is based on classes, and imo three is a bare minimum as is. If they wanted to make it classless I'd be supportive of it as an Ultima Online style of skill progression would be great. But it isn't, and Bioware is sticking with classes, streamlining it to two just removes all purpose behind having classes at all to me.

Since classes are a reality, I'd actually wish they'd make about 5 more. The limitations of a class along with it's benefits is the entire point of having them imo..

Modifié par Revan312, 18 novembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[Arrtis]

At least 2 is required storywise.

Since if your born with magic your a mage no matter how well you fight or sneak.

[Darkhour]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Why exactly should a rogue have a bonus that other's don't?

Cause they suck in comba--oh, wait.  Cause they can't wear heavy armo--wait.  Cause they get ****ty hit poin--wait.

I agree that the rogue abilities should open up new WAYS to do things, but shouldn't provide a benefit that other characters can't obtain.  I mean, there weren't any mage-specific or warrior-specific quests.  Hmph.

They do more damage, rely on dodging and don't need tons of hitpoints. They are balanced with warriors.  I didn't notice that much of a difference between rogue and 2-hand/duel wield warriors wehn it came to how long they could last.  Rogues get more skill points to boot. 

Why should they have an addtional bonus?

On another note the pick lock ability should have been in the same category as Survival, Poison Making, etc. (even if only rogues could specialize in it) Even if I play a rogue as my main there is no way I'm neglecting combat skills for lock picking. 

[StingingVelvet]

If they used a classless system with one huge skill tree of which lockpicking was a part then I would be fine with that, honestly. That's actual more customizable and complex than a class-based system.  If you're going to have classes though rogues need to be one, and lockpicking needs to be exclusive. Putting rogue stuff under a fighter class would be immensely stupid.

Modifié par StingingVelvet, 19 novembre 2010 - 12:49 .

[Xewaka]

StingingVelvet wrote...

If they used a classless system with one huge skill tree of which lockpicking was a part then I would be fine with that, honestly. That's actual more customizable and complex than a class-based system.  If you're going to have classes though rogues need to be one, and lockpicking needs to be exclusive. Putting rogue stuff under a fighter class would be immensely stupid.

No more stupid than putting Cleric stuff on the mage.

Oh wait.

[ErichHartmann]

If Dragon Age wasn't a party based game then I would be 100% behind a classless system. Makes sense when it's you versus the world.

[Selene Moonsong]

Darkhour wrote...


On another note the pick lock ability should have been in the same category as Survival, Poison Making, etc. (even if only rogues could specialize in it) Even if I play a rogue as my main there is no way I'm neglecting combat skills for lock picking. 

I disagree, lock picking is more than a skill, just as the ability to hide or learning to be a Bard is. The way I see it, the "Skills" are things you can pick up relatively easily, where "Talents" are more formalized and take much more focus to learn and much more practice to perfect.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

The way I see it, the "Skills" are things you can pick up relatively easily, where "Talents" are more formalized and take much more focus to learn and much more practice to perfect.

Then Coersion should have been a Talent.

[Arrtis]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

The way I see it, the "Skills" are things you can pick up relatively easily, where "Talents" are more formalized and take much more focus to learn and much more practice to perfect.

Then Coersion should have been a Talent.

THat only rogues could have.

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

The way I see it, the "Skills" are things you can pick up relatively easily, where "Talents" are more formalized and take much more focus to learn and much more practice to perfect.

Then Coersion should have been a Talent.

BioWare PCs all carry the aura of the protagonist, which gives them a significant edge when comes to persuading others. It is something they can pick up relatively easily while the companions (in DAO) can't pick up at all.

[Bullets McDeath]

As far as I could tell, in the game, "Skills" are used out of combat (or at least indirectly, like traps) and "Talents" were used in combat, Lockpicking being the notably odd exception. If trapmaking is a skill, then certainly lockpicking should fall in the same realm of complexity. Either way, forgoing combat effectiveness for trash loot was lame.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

BioWare PCs all carry the aura of the protagonist, which gives them a significant edge when comes to persuading others. It is something they can pick up relatively easily while the companions (in DAO) can't pick up at all.

That would need to be explicitly documented before I'd accept it as true.

And as soon as it was documented I'd complain that it limited my roleplaying freedom.

[Sylvius the Mad]

outlaworacle wrote...

As far as I could tell, in the game, "Skills" are used out of combat (or at least indirectly, like traps) and "Talents" were used in combat,

This is not something I like, incidentally.  I want the player to haveto choose between combat effectiveness and non-combat utility.

[Bullets McDeath]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

As far as I could tell, in the game, "Skills" are used out of combat (or at least indirectly, like traps) and "Talents" were used in combat,

This is not something I like, incidentally.  I want the player to haveto choose between combat effectiveness and non-combat utility.

I agree in spirit but as implemented in Origins, it was frustrating. There was rarely anything of interest in chests and literally no dungeon that would stop you from progressing for not having a lockpicker (though there's one room in the Brecilian Ruins that will make you sorry if you don't have a rogue).

Even as a skill, there would be a certain amount of combat trade-off; every skill rank you devote to lockpicking is one you can't spend on Combat Training or Tactics, after all.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:25 .

[ErichHartmann]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

As far as I could tell, in the game, "Skills" are used out of combat (or at least indirectly, like traps) and "Talents" were used in combat,

This is not something I like, incidentally.  I want the player to have to choose between combat effectiveness and non-combat utility.

I agree.  Part of building a character should be making those decisions, which I think adds to the fun.    

[Arrtis]

I find those decisions annoying since I always want my character to be combat ready or not be in combat at all....if you do not participate in the fight why not bring an extra guy along to do your fighting.

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

BioWare PCs all carry the aura of the protagonist, which gives them a significant edge when comes to persuading others. It is something they can pick up relatively easily while the companions (in DAO) can't pick up at all.

That would need to be explicitly documented before I'd accept it as true.

Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic, and Dragon Age all allow the PC a speech skill/ability that none of the companions have. This is even the case when the companion is presented as being smoothed tongued and adept at persuasion or deception.

How else do you account for the PC repeatedly having a mechanical ability that no one else has access to other than meta-game related specialness? It's not like the bhaalspawn form where there's an in setting reason given for the difference.

And as soon as it was documented I'd complain that it limited my roleplaying freedom.

And I'd agree with you.

[Aermas]

The thing is the Rogue got more skill points than everyone else, so the only way to balance it was to put rogue skills in the Talent Section as to slow their combat effectiveness or they would have out striped warriors (which is ridiculous). Ultimately everything is a skill, or a proficiency. So in reality anyone can learn to lockpick, it's not that hard, in this way stealth should be a skill too. The only class they need to separate is the Mage because it is inherited not trained.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

How else do you account for the PC repeatedly having a mechanical ability that no one else has access to other than meta-game related specialness?

Either the setting doesn't make any sense, or that aspect of those characters simply isn't being shown to me because it makes no material difference (the non-PC party members in the games you mention can't engage in player-controlled conversation - which I still think is poor design).

[Lord Gremlin]

Aermas wrote...

The thing is the Rogue got more skill points than everyone else, so the only way to balance it was to put rogue skills in the Talent Section as to slow their combat effectiveness or they would have out striped warriors (which is ridiculous). Ultimately everything is a skill, or a proficiency. So in reality anyone can learn to lockpick, it's not that hard, in this way stealth should be a skill too. The only class they need to separate is the Mage because it is inherited not trained.

A lot of sense here. I'd really prefer only 2 classes, but with very diverse and robust skill trees.

[Selene Moonsong]

Aermas wrote...

The thing is the Rogue got more skill points than everyone else, so the only way to balance it was to put rogue skills in the Talent Section as to slow their combat effectiveness or they would have out striped warriors (which is ridiculous). Ultimately everything is a skill, or a proficiency. So in reality anyone can learn to lockpick, it's not that hard, in this way stealth should be a skill too. The only class they need to separate is the Mage because it is inherited not trained.

Based on that analogy,  many of the warior exlusive talents are also skills that anyone could learn. However, this isn't reality, it is a fantasy world game setting having three distinct core character classes.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Then Coersion should have been a Talent.

Logically speaking, Coersion is a Skill as opposed to a Talent, much like Survival. Coersion is used in many facets of life in the game, and not limited to Rogues for that reason in the game, and thus can be learned without formalized instruction. Everyone uses coersion to some degree.

[Ryzaki]

Edit: NVM not even going to start. I'm too crabby in the morning.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 11:18 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Selene Moonsong wrote...
Everyone uses coersion to some degree.

Except for spelling it correctly.  (It's coercion.)

I'd be happy if they got rid of the divide between skills and talents, personally.  (Especially since the idea that skills are for non-combat utility and talents are for combat is ridiculous: two of the skills did nothing but either give you more COMBAT tactics slots or let you get higher level COMBAT abilities.)  Give everyone the same number of points and let them go to town.  If you want to buy every single combat talent and no skills, go for it.  They may as well have not had skills for warriors at all, since you were pretty much required to put 4 of your points into Combat Training anyway.  If any skill needs to go, it's that one.

I'd also like to see a mage-oriented skill of some kind, maybe spell lore or something.  (And have goofy magical barriers/traps/locks in the game that you could get through with spell lore.  Then you'd have some parity:  Rogues could get some chests, mages could get some chests, and warriors could kick more ass.)  It'd be REALLY awesome if they gave you a Knowledge skill that a.) gave you more dialog options and b.) gave you more xp from codex entries.