187 réponses à ce sujet

[nightcobra]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...
Everyone uses coersion to some degree.

Except for spelling it correctly.  (It's coercion.)

I'd be happy if they got rid of the divide between skills and talents, personally.  (Especially since the idea that skills are for non-combat utility and talents are for combat is ridiculous: two of the skills did nothing but either give you more COMBAT tactics slots or let you get higher level COMBAT abilities.)  Give everyone the same number of points and let them go to town.  If you want to buy every single combat talent and no skills, go for it.  They may as well have not had skills for warriors at all, since you were pretty much required to put 4 of your points into Combat Training anyway.  If any skill needs to go, it's that one.

I'd also like to see a mage-oriented skill of some kind, maybe spell lore or something.  (And have goofy magical barriers/traps/locks in the game that you could get through with spell lore.  Then you'd have some parity:  Rogues could get some chests, mages could get some chests, and warriors could kick more ass.)  It'd be REALLY awesome if they gave you a Knowledge skill that a.) gave you more dialog options and b.) gave you more xp from codex entries.

how about this:

locked chest/doors that can be opened by rogues and is dependant on cunning stat.

magical locks and barriers that can be dispelled by mages (like how the spirit form in the fade did with transparent doorways) and is dependant on magic stat.

and large obstacles like boulders or toppled statues that can be destroyed by warriors (like how the golem form in the fade was able to burst open through heavy doors) and is dependant on strenght stat. 

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:08 .

[PsychoBlonde]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...
Everyone uses coersion to some degree.

Except for spelling it correctly.  (It's coercion.)

I'd be happy if they got rid of the divide between skills and talents, personally.  (Especially since the idea that skills are for non-combat utility and talents are for combat is ridiculous: two of the skills did nothing but either give you more COMBAT tactics slots or let you get higher level COMBAT abilities.)  Give everyone the same number of points and let them go to town.  If you want to buy every single combat talent and no skills, go for it.  They may as well have not had skills for warriors at all, since you were pretty much required to put 4 of your points into Combat Training anyway.  If any skill needs to go, it's that one.

I'd also like to see a mage-oriented skill of some kind, maybe spell lore or something.  (And have goofy magical barriers/traps/locks in the game that you could get through with spell lore.  Then you'd have some parity:  Rogues could get some chests, mages could get some chests, and warriors could kick more ass.)  It'd be REALLY awesome if they gave you a Knowledge skill that a.) gave you more dialog options and b.) gave you more xp from codex entries.

how about this:

locked chest/doors that can be opened by rogues and is dependant on cunning stat.

magical locks and barriers that can be dispelled by mages (like how the spirit form in the fade did with transparent doorways) and is dependant on magic stat.

and large obstacles like boulders or toppled statues that can be destroyed by warriors (like how the golem form in the fade was able to burst open through heavy doors) and is dependant on strenght stat. 

This would actually be cool providing there isn't an optimal all-dex fighter build.  I'm doubting there will be due to the armor et al being str-related.

I'd like to see potions and stuff that can be used to boost your stats temporarily, also.

[nightcobra]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I'd like to see potions and stuff that can be used to boost your stats temporarily, also.

that could be useful for certain builds to be able to pass these checks, yes.

[Bullets McDeath]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...
Everyone uses coersion to some degree.

Except for spelling it correctly.  (It's coercion.)

I'd be happy if they got rid of the divide between skills and talents, personally.  (Especially since the idea that skills are for non-combat utility and talents are for combat is ridiculous: two of the skills did nothing but either give you more COMBAT tactics slots or let you get higher level COMBAT abilities.)  Give everyone the same number of points and let them go to town.  If you want to buy every single combat talent and no skills, go for it.  They may as well have not had skills for warriors at all, since you were pretty much required to put 4 of your points into Combat Training anyway.  If any skill needs to go, it's that one.

I'd also like to see a mage-oriented skill of some kind, maybe spell lore or something.  (And have goofy magical barriers/traps/locks in the game that you could get through with spell lore.  Then you'd have some parity:  Rogues could get some chests, mages could get some chests, and warriors could kick more ass.)  It'd be REALLY awesome if they gave you a Knowledge skill that a.) gave you more dialog options and b.) gave you more xp from codex entries.

how about this:

locked chest/doors that can be opened by rogues and is dependant on cunning stat.

magical locks and barriers that can be dispelled by mages (like how the spirit form in the fade did with transparent doorways) and is dependant on magic stat.

and large obstacles like boulders or toppled statues that can be destroyed by warriors (like how the golem form in the fade was able to burst open through heavy doors) and is dependant on strenght stat. 

+1

I like this idea a lot.

[Darkhour]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Darkhour wrote...


On another note the pick lock ability should have been in the same category as Survival, Poison Making, etc. (even if only rogues could specialize in it) Even if I play a rogue as my main there is no way I'm neglecting combat skills for lock picking. 

I disagree, lock picking is more than a skill, just as the ability to hide or learning to be a Bard is. The way I see it, the "Skills" are things you can pick up relatively easily, where "Talents" are more formalized and take much more focus to learn and much more practice to perfect.

You think making traps, tracking skills and poison making are less difficult than picking a lock?  How so?

Not that it matters.  The point is that you have to trade a useful combat ability for a rather pointless lock picking level.  Lock picking isn't in the same league as comabt skills. You shouldn't have to neglect your ability to attack for a non-attack abilties in a combat focused game.

[Darkhour]

Arrtis wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Selene Moonsong wrote...

The way I see it, the "Skills" are things you can pick up relatively easily, where "Talents" are more formalized and take much more focus to learn and much more practice to perfect.

Then Coersion should have been a Talent.

THat only rogues could have.

Might as well be.  My warrior or mage isn't putting any points into cunning.  Good thing there was the Fade.

[Selene Moonsong]

Darkhour wrote...

You think making traps, tracking skills and poison making are less difficult than picking a lock?  How so?

Not that it matters.  The point is that you have to trade a useful combat ability for a rather pointless lock picking level.  Lock picking isn't in the same league as comabt skills. You shouldn't have to neglect your ability to attack for a non-attack abilties in a combat focused game.

For poisons and potions, you also have to include spending points on magic for effectiveness, the Rogue or Warrior is not getting a free ride. Should Lock Picking have been a skill, I can agree that maybe it should have been, but only to some extent and is my opinion derived mostly from my experience with D&D game rules. 

Howeve,r lock picking is a class-specific ability which is why I assume Lock-Picking was made a Talent in Origins as opposed to a Skill. The "Talents" are class-specific abilities and not every Talent is a direct combat ability; some are also utilitarian in nature, although most are combat related. Even lock picking can be combat related, such as a possible scenario where the party is engaged in combat, and the rogue sneaks off to open a chest the enemy was protecting...

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 20 novembre 2010 - 01:24 .

[Beaner28]

The point of only having rogues able to do this is to make sure you keep at least one rogue in your party at all times if you're not playing a rogue yourself.

This encourages your party to have a good class balance of warriors, rogues and mages. Otherwise, there's nothing to stop you from having an all warrior or an all mage party which is kind of a cheat in my opinion. I don't think lockpicking should be a skill for all classes for that reason.

The reason I don't like mods that allow warriors and mages to pick locks is because they create game experiences other than what the developers intended. I don't have a problem with players that use them but I don't and it's a matter of personal preference.

Modifié par Beaner28, 20 novembre 2010 - 02:38 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

Howeve,r lock picking is a class-specific ability which is why I assume Lock-Picking was made a Talent in Origins as opposed to a Skill. The "Talents" are class-specific abilities and not every Talent is a direct combat ability; some are also utilitarian in nature, although most are combat related. Even lock picking can be combat related, such as a possible scenario where the party is engaged in combat, and the rogue sneaks off to open a chest the enemy was protecting...

Combat training is class-specific.  If you're a warrior or a rogue, it does one thing.  If you're a mage, it does something else.  And rogue was the ONLY class that got "utility" talents of any kind.  Everything else was pure combat.

Meh, there's always a case to be made for doing things a different way.  My favorite game system (from a design standpoint) is Mutants and Masterminds, where EVERYTHING about your character is purchased from the same pool of points.  Want more feats?  Buy more feats.  You can put 100% of your points into feats if you want.  You can put 100% of your points into skills if you want.  (You'd be useless in combat, but you could do it.)

I'm quite curious to see the new system changes and how they work.  And I can live without getting into Those Three Chests.  It just makes me INSANE.

[PsychoBlonde]

Beaner28 wrote...
Otherwise, there's nothing to stop you from having an all warrior or an all mage party which is kind of a cheat in my opinion.

Why?  These are usually the hardest groups to pull off.  (But can be the most fun.)  It's a single-player game it's not like you're stealing someone's kills online.

The reason I don't like mods that allow warriors and mages to pick locks is because they create game experiences other than what the developers intended. I don't have a problem with players that use them but I don't and it's a matter of personal preference.

I'm pretty sure I've never once had the game experience the developers "intended" assuming they intended me to have a particular *experience*.  Heck, my first RPG was played sitting on the floor in the computer room and telling my dad what my 3 party members wanted to do.  (Gold box games.  Man that was fun.)  I thought the whole point was that I have some degree of control over the nature of what happens in the game.

[ildarkxninjali]

I don't think that lockpicking should be limited to just the rogue. I think realistically, any class should be able to use this ability.

[StingingVelvet]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I'm pretty sure I've never once had the game experience the developers "intended" assuming they intended me to have a particular *experience*.  Heck, my first RPG was played sitting on the floor in the computer room and telling my dad what my 3 party members wanted to do.  (Gold box games.  Man that was fun.)  I thought the whole point was that I have some degree of control over the nature of what happens in the game.

The developer intended for each class to have limitations and benefits so the classes play differently, so that companions fit certain needs and niches due to their roles.  It makes it more of a game, because you need to mix and match and choose skills and party members based on needs.  Ideally you should always have a rogue so you can open chests... choose not to take a rogue and you lose out on chests, it's that simple.

One could make the argument of course that in a single-character RPG like say Morrowind, where you have no party, that every option should be open to the player.  Even then though you are choosing lockpicking over some other skill, losing out on something to gain something else, the classic choice and consequence of RPGs.  That sort of summarizes my argument actually... RPGs should be RPGs, nothing else to it.

Modifié par StingingVelvet, 20 novembre 2010 - 09:29 .

[ildarkxninjali]

I understand what you are trying to say about that. However, when you think about lockpicking in terms with the other skills, it makes sense to make it avaliable to the warrior and mage as well. For instance, pickpocketing is avaliable to everyone. Rogues are used mainly for stealth. But lockpicking is not necessarily defined in the stealth category.

[Beaner28]

ildarkxninjali wrote...

I don't think that lockpicking should be limited to just the rogue. I think realistically, any class should be able to use this ability.

In terms of lore, rogues are supposed to me akin to the ways of sneak thievery so it makes sense that they would have skills that allows for stealing and picking locks. Having said that, it never made sense to me that Stealing was a character wide skill and not a talent unique to rogues.

[Darkhour]

Beaner28 wrote...

The point of only having rogues able to do this is to make sure you keep at least one rogue in your party at all times if you're not playing a rogue yourself.

You don't ever HAVE to bring a rogue anywhere.  Making lock picking a rogue only skill means that I need to run through a dungeon again AFTER I've completed it with a rogue if I want to open the chests.  It's an unnecessary inconvience.

This encourages your party to have a good class balance of warriors, rogues and mages. Otherwise, there's nothing to stop you from having an all warrior or an all mage party which is kind of a cheat in my opinion. I don't think lockpicking should be a skill for all classes for that reason.

As far as all warrior or all mage group is concenred it is MANDATORY for any difficulty setting of Normal greater difficulty to have a mage warden and bring Morrigan, Wynne and Alistair/Shale (to tank).  A rogue or even a non-tanking warrior is pretty damn useless against the sheer numbers of enemies that come at you at once. At least on the PC version.  I just happened to play a mage first, but every game after that I have played Easy so that I can get the most out of the characters/story/conversations.

The reason I don't like mods that allow warriors and mages to pick locks is because they create game experiences other than what the developers intended. I don't have a problem with players that use them but I don't and it's a matter of personal preference.

I paid for the game to enjoy it.  I could care less about how the devs intend for me to enjoy my purchase. Clearly, their "intended experience" conflicts with my desired experience.

Modifié par Darkhour, 20 novembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Darkhour]

StingingVelvet wrote...
The developer intended for each class to have limitations and benefits so the classes play differently, so that companions fit certain needs and niches due to their roles.  It makes it more of a game, because you need to mix and match and choose skills and party members based on needs.  Ideally you should always have a rogue so you can open chests... choose not to take a rogue and you lose out on chests, it's that simple.

To avoid inconvenince bring Leliana EVERYWHERE or never play anything other than a rogue. Yeah, that's a great idea!!!

Modifié par Darkhour, 20 novembre 2010 - 03:40 .

[In Exile]

Darkhour wrote...

Why exactly should a rogue have a bonus that other's don't?

Why can a mage use magic? The second you define a gameplay element via some category like class, you have to differentiate each of them by giving them unique abilities that might draw a player to using them.

[Aldandil]

Darkhour wrote...

Beaner28 wrote...

The point of only having rogues able to do this is to make sure you keep at least one rogue in your party at all times if you're not playing a rogue yourself.

You don't ever HAVE to bring a rogue anywhere.  Making lock picking a rogue only skill means that I need to run through a dungeon again AFTER I've completed it with a rogue if I want to open the chests.  It's an unnecessary inconvience.

This encourages your party to have a good class balance of warriors, rogues and mages. Otherwise, there's nothing to stop you from having an all warrior or an all mage party which is kind of a cheat in my opinion. I don't think lockpicking should be a skill for all classes for that reason.

As far as all warrior or all mage group is concenred it is MANDATORY for any difficulty setting of Normal greater difficulty to have a mage warden and bring Morrigan, Wynne and Alistair/Shale (to tank).  A rogue or even a non-tanking warrior is pretty damn useless against the sheer numbers of enemies that come at you at once. At least on the PC version.  I just happened to play a mage first, but every game after that I have played Easy so that I can get the most out of the characters/story/conversations.

The reason I don't like mods that allow warriors and mages to pick locks is because they create game experiences other than what the developers intended. I don't have a problem with players that use them but I don't and it's a matter of personal preference.

I paid for the game to enjoy it.  I could care less about how the devs intend for me to enjoy my purchase. Clearly, their "intended experience" conflicts with my desired experience.

Now you're being unreasonable. You can play the game without a rogue in the party, and skip loot/lockpicking XP. There's nothing wrong with that. You can play the game with a rogue in the party. That is definitely the way the game was intended (that you would have all classes in your party at the same time). You can skip having warriors but than you won't have anyone that can pull aggro, you can skip mages but you will have less CC/AoE, and you can skip rogues and not get lockpicking. Yes, I can also see the difference between the three of thém, but the point is that classes have different functions. If you want to be able to do everything, you got to bring a companion of each class, or play one yourself.
I'm not quite sure if I follow you here, but as far as I understand, you're saying that that you are required to have only mages and a tank at higher difficulty levels. I assure you that this is not the case, but if you feel that way, then why play at those levels? I would agree with you that it seems as if the "intended" experience is in conflict with your desired experience, but if the issue only consists of having a rogue in the party or skipping some pretty useless junk, it's certainly not a big deal.

[nightcobra]

Aldandil wrote...

Now you're being unreasonable. You can play the game without a rogue in the party, and skip loot/lockpicking XP. There's nothing wrong with that. You can play the game with a rogue in the party. That is definitely the way the game was intended (that you would have all classes in your party at the same time). You can skip having warriors but than you won't have anyone that can pull aggro, you can skip mages but you will have less CC/AoE, and you can skip rogues and not get lockpicking. Yes, I can also see the difference between the three of thém, but the point is that classes have different functions. If you want to be able to do everything, you got to bring a companion of each class, or play one yourself.
I'm not quite sure if I follow you here, but as far as I understand, you're saying that that you are required to have only mages and a tank at higher difficulty levels. I assure you that this is not the case, but if you feel that way, then why play at those levels? I would agree with you that it seems as if the "intended" experience is in conflict with your desired experience, but if the issue only consists of having a rogue in the party or skipping some pretty useless junk, it's certainly not a big deal.

as i said before i don't mix combat skills with non-combat skills.
i don't have a beef with rogue having lockpick, what i'd like to see is for warriors and mages to be as useful as the rogue is in non combat situations in different ways.

reposting my proposition:

locked chest/doors that can be opened by rogues and is dependant on cunning stat.

magical locks and barriers that can be dispelled by mages (like how the spirit form in the fade did with transparent doorways) and is dependant on magic stat.

and large obstacles like boulders or toppled statues that can be destroyed by warriors (like how the golem form in the fade was able to burst open through heavy doors) and is dependant on strenght stat. 


if you think that leaves the rogue lacking in combat skills, then add some more of those to rogue as well.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 20 novembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[Darkhour]

In Exile wrote...

Why can a mage use magic? The second you define a gameplay element via some category like class, you have to differentiate each of them by giving them unique abilities that might draw a player to using them.

Why can a warrior or rogue use a sword and dagger?  I don't know where you planned to go with that one.

So in otherwords you believe rogues are useless without lock picking?

I brought different people to have different dialog.  Not because Leliana can pick locks so Leliana is hereby as default as my warden is.  We aren't even really talking about a class. Leliana IS the lock picker.  

Aldandil wrote...

Now you're being unreasonable. You can play the game without a rogue in the party, and skip loot/lockpicking XP. There's nothing wrong with that. You can play the game with a rogue in the party. That is definitely the way the game was intended (that you would have all classes in your party at the same time). You can skip having warriors but than you won't have anyone that can pull aggro, you can skip mages but you will have less CC/AoE, and you can skip rogues and not get lockpicking. Yes, I can also see the difference between the three of thém, but the point is that classes have different functions. If you want to be able to do everything, you got to bring a companion of each class, or play one yourself.

Wrong. As I just said I can get 99% of all the chests without ever taking a rogue into combat.  It is simply a matter of unnecessary inconvenience that only rogues can pick locks.  And as I said above, why should Leliana be "mandatory".  Why should she be elevated above all the other characters?  Why does it have to be class based and not character base so that, for instance, Morrigan, Leliana, Zevran and Ohgren can pick locks?

I'm not quite sure if I follow you here, but as far as I understand, you're saying that that you are required to have only mages and a tank at higher difficulty levels. I assure you that this is not the case, but if you feel that way, then why play at those levels? I would agree with you that it seems as if the "intended" experience is in conflict with your desired experience, but if the issue only consists of having a rogue in the party or skipping some pretty useless junk, it's certainly not a big deal.

I only play higher difficulties when playing a mage. Otherwise, to get he full experience I have to play on easy or find some kind of cheat mod.

I don't know if you're playing Xbox version or what (I've heard it's ridiculously easy compared to the PC), but if 20 hurlocks are engaging you Leliana, Sten, Dog, Zevran, Oghren, whoever is going to drop faster that a lead boulder in a direct assualt.  And those darkspawn don't die quickly either.  Even with everyone focus firing on one enemy it takes too long to bring them down when there are 19 more wailing away at you.  You need tons of CC to keep things managable and warriors and rogues cannot provide that. Even when fighting a Reverent (4 vs 1)  potions aren't enough to keep people alive.  I'll call anyone who says otherwise a cheater, Xbox player or liar.

Modifié par Darkhour, 20 novembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[StingingVelvet]

Rogues kick-ass man, you're just not using them right. My main character was a rogue and I beat the game without breaking a sweat... Even if Rogues did suck though, just skip the chests then. Nothing in the game forces you to bring a rogue, or to return to a chest with a rogue. Most of the loot in chests was pointless.



In any event, some people want to remove the RPG from RPGs because they think that is more "fun." Fun is subjective though, and removing choice and consequence from an RPG drastically lowers my fun, so... what is there to do? Well, keep RPGs RPGs, if you ask me. If you don't like RPG elements you can always play another genre, or play a game more geared toward being an action game with RPG elements.

[In Exile]

Darkhour wrote...


Why can a warrior or rogue use a sword and dagger?  I don't know where you planned to go with that one.

You asked why a rogue should have some bonus ability. It isn't a bonus ability. It's just class differentiation. It's a random and arbitrary feature added to this one class to make it different from the other two classes.

So in otherwords you believe rogues are useless without lock picking?

I'm not following you got to this conclusion from what I said.

I brought different people to have different dialog.  Not because Leliana can pick locks so Leliana is hereby as default as my warden is.  We aren't even really talking about a class. Leliana IS the lock picker. 

...Okay? Again, you just asked what the point was for class-exclusive skills. The point is to make classes non-identical.

[AlanC9]

Darkhour wrote...

[You don't ever HAVE to bring a rogue anywhere.  Making lock picking a rogue only skill means that I need to run through a dungeon again AFTER I've completed it with a rogue if I want to open the chests.  It's an unnecessary inconvience.

This is actually a fair point. The problem with making lockpicking a class-specific ability in DAO is that there is no tradeoff for a player who's willing to do something boring. Of course, there's something wrong with a player who deliberately does something boring, but giving incentives to do boring things isn't great design.

[Darkhour]

In Exile wrote...

...Okay? Again, you just asked what the point was for class-exclusive skills. The point is to make classes non-identical.

So, in your opinion, a rogue is a warrior that can pick locks?

If not, please ellaborate on how lock picking has any effect on how a rogue is played?

[In Exile]

Darkhour wrote...
So, in your opinion, a rogue is a warrior that can pick locks?

If not, please ellaborate on how lock picking has any effect on how a rogue is played?

What is with all the nonsensical questions?  Lockpicking makes a rogue non-identical to a warrior via added utility, which also comes from skills at every 2 levels instead of every 3. Backstabs make a rogue distinct.