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ITT: We discuss the size of Amaranthine (the arling). I mean, uh, if you want.


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#1
Ulicus

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I mean, seriously. It's hoooooooge.

Image IPB

That is a sizable chunk of Ferelden, right there. A very sizable chunk. And, when you consider that the Bannorn is -- according to the codex -- a territory "greater than that of all the teyrns and arls combined", it makes you wonder how that can be possible when a "mere" arling is that massive.

(Though it is possible that by "greater", the codex did not mean in terms of land... and it's not like having sway over blackmarsh is anything to crow about)

Firstly, was anyone as surprised as me when they first saw how large Amaranthine was? (I didn't expect the place to extend south of the North Road)

Secondly, do'ya like the lovely shade of pink (I tried to get it close to the colour amaranthine) I decked the place out in? :wub:

Thirdly, what do you think about the arling's size? Is it representive of the typical arling? Is it especially large for an arling?  Have BioWare dropped the thing about the Bannorn being collectively greater than all the arlings and teyrnirs combined? Or do you not care in the slightest? :P

My current hypothesis is that, following the Blight -- and what was likely a surge of popularity for the Grey Wardens in Ferelden -- the arling expanded rather quickly as previously bann-sworn freeholders (maybe even some banns, themselves?) decided to switch over to the Arl of Amaranthine/Warden-Commander.

And, y'know, a lot of the nobility was probably dead by this point, so I could see there being plenty of freeholders who needed to find a new lord. So, in short, the Bannorn used to be a larger territory than all the other arlings and teyrnirs combined... but it probably isn't any more.

But, even if I can handwave it, I'm still interested to read what other people think. Heh. I mean, maybe this kind of thing doesn't interest anyone but me (I'd love for BioWare to give us a "rough outline" of how Ferelden is partitioned between all the different arlings/teyrnirs) but I thought it was worth making a topic, regardless.

Because I'm super cool, yo. :wizard:

(I fully expect this topic to fall flat on its face. My topics usually do.)

#2
Sarah1281

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(Though it is possible that by "greater", the codex did not mean in terms of land... and it's not like having sway over blackmarsh is anything to crow about)

I think you might be onto something there. Remember, the bannorn was united as one against Highever, Amaranthine, Gwaren, AND Denerim (plus whoever else was on Loghain's side) and it still took all of Loghain's military genius to start to win towards the Landsmeet.

#3
KnightofPhoenix

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And to think Amaranthine was given to the Wardens. Sigh, the most idiotic thing a monarch can do.

To be honest, I did not expect Amaranthine to be this big. Nor did I think that it extended that much south of the Imperial highway. I do expect Highever and Gwaren to be of equal size, being Ternirs.

It could be that the Arling's size increased after the Blight, but we don't know.

#4
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Yeah, it looks bigger than Highever. I wonder when the map is from.

#5
Bruddajakka

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You know I've always been curious if Gwaren include the Brecelian as part of it's territory. Because if so for a time the Cousland family more or less controlled Feraldens entire Coastline.

#6
Ulicus

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@KnightofPhoenix

I would have expected both Highever and Gwaren to be larger than Amarathine -- though when you consider that Amaranthine is, or at least was, a vassal arling of Highever... it puts it in a bit more perspective.

I don't know whether it remains as such under the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par Ulicus, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:12 .


#7
Sarah1281

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And to think Amaranthine was given to the Wardens. Sigh, the most idiotic thing a monarch can do.
To be honest, I did not expect Amaranthine to be this big. Nor did I think that it extended that much south of the Imperial highway. I do expect Highever and Gwaren to be of equal size, being Ternirs.
It could be that the Arling's size increased after the Blight, but we don't know.

What did those Chasind do to Fergus?!?! Image IPB

#8
KnightofPhoenix

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Sarah1281 wrote...
What did those Chasind do to Fergus?!?! Image IPB


The more pertinent question is: what the hell is Anora thinking?!?!

I can see Alistair being that foolish, but Anora?
Sigh, I am dissapoint.

Sersiouly, a law must be imposed postulating that the Arling of Amaranthine can only be ruled by a native Ferelden Warden (of the monarchs choosing) and that person must swear an oath of allegience dictating that Ferelden interests take precedence over Warden interests (and the Crown must have the final say over broad policies).
If that could work, then I can see a potential benefit to this. Amaranthine is no longer family property, but rather a province. But that will require extensive politicking. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:40 .


#9
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Sarah1281 wrote...


What did those Chasind do to Fergus?!?! Image IPB



More like "What does Flemeth's naked affections do to human mental capacity and descision making?:wizard:

#10
Ashaman X

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That is a lot larger than it appears in the Awakening map, on the larger Ferelden map it gives it more perspective. Oh well, my Warden-Commander loves her home and takes good care of her Arling.

#11
Ulicus

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Ashaman X wrote...

That is a lot larger than it appears in the Awakening map, on the larger Ferelden map it gives it more perspective.

Indeed, it does.

On the offchance people are interested, here's the Awakening map superimposed, at 80% transparency:

Image IPB

(right click and "view image", to see in full, obviously.)

You'll notice, if you compare it with the first image, that I actually made some assumptions regarding the extent of Amaranthine's territory towards the west of the Awakening map -- mainly to save Highever some face. So the arling may actually be slightly larger than it appears in the first image.

Modifié par Ulicus, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:40 .


#12
KnightofPhoenix

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You are assuming that the map in Awakening represents the actual boundaries of the Arling, which might not be the case. Indeed, Denerim would be on the borders of the Arling then, which I find unlikely. Likewise unlikely is that small strip of land east of Denerim belonging to Amaranthine. Furthermore, I doubt the islands north of the Arling are technically  part of it, as they are only nominally part of the kingdom. Also, it's unlikely that Amaranthine extends that much into the Bannorn.

Is the first map your own personal estimation or is it official?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 novembre 2010 - 05:48 .


#13
Ulicus

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You are assuming that the map in Awakening represents the actual boundaries of the Arling, which might not be the case. Indeed, Denerim would be on the borders of the Arling then, which I find unlikely. Likewise unlikely is that small strip of land east of Denerim belonging to Amaranthine. Furthermore, I doubt the islands north of the Arling are technically  part of it, as they are only nominally part of the kingdom. Also, it's unlikely that Amaranthine extends that much into the Bannorn.

Is the first map your own personal estimation or is it official?

The first map is my personal conservative estimation, yes. I made the arling as small as it could be given the Awakening map.

Look up close:

Image IPB
You can see that I'm not (unfortunately -- I would rather it were much smaller!) making assumptions regarding the extent to which it enters the Bannorn, and the pink borders in the first image accurately reflects that.  (I didn't give Amarathine the small strip of land east of Denerim in the first picture, either, as I made the same assumption you did.)

This was what I felt was implied:

Image IPB

(Again, obviously right click and "view image" to see in more detail)

You could maybe shave a bit more off the south, I guess, but the arling still extends well south of the north road... and the Bannorn is labelled beyond the Tarcaisne Ridge.

But, uh, yeah, I haven't ever assumed that the entire Awakening map represented the borders of the arling. Not sure where you got that from.

Modifié par Ulicus, 18 novembre 2010 - 06:30 .


#14
LEGION3000

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One thing that you have to remember is that the individual freeholders (such as Turnoble Estate) choose which Bann or Arl they swear allegience to.  And this allegience can change at any time. 

That means the map for DAO:A is only valid at that particular point in time.  It is highly likely that many freeholders in the north-eastern Bannorn swore allegience to Amaranthine purely because it run by the Hero of Ferelden.  It also stands to reason that in the time after "awakening", whatever freeholders take over the Turnoble Estate are probably going to rethink their allegience to Amaranthine because 1) they are so far away it makes timely protection a problem and 2) the previous freeholders got slaughtered while supposedly under the Warden's protection.

One other point I want to make is that drawing territorial boundry maps such as your first image is not really relevent to the political structure of Ferelden since Freeholders are free to choose whatever Bann they wish to support.  That means that you could litterally have some territory within your highlighted region that technically belong to Denerim or another Bann, or even more strangely, there are probably vast areas of wilderness forest that don't really belong to anyone because the land is too poor or forested for a freeholder to make use of it.  Remember that areas like the Kokari wilds don't really reside as part of anyone's Bann because no Freeholders want to live there.  Also from what we have seen, Ferelden doesn't appear to be suffering from overpopulation.  In fact I would say it was the opposite.  Due to the recent wars and Blight there are probably vast areas of perfectly habitable land that nobody is occupying.

We also have to remember that all the Banns and Arls pledge allegience to the Teryn.  Does it matter much how big Amaranthine Arling is when it is just a subsection of Highever Teryn.  In the landsmeet they are still only at the same level of the other Banns.  It would be much more practical to draw maps based on the Teryns due to them largely being stationary.

My own take on the Ferelden nobility system is based largely on early feudalism.
King - The high Teryn to which all other Teryn swear fealty.
Teryn - The highest nobility below king to which All Arls and Banns swear fealty.  Tasked with maintaining peace among the Banns under their control and arranging military forces for the defence of the kingdom.
Arl - A Bann that has a particularly important Bannorn and is tasked with building and maintaining a castle for the defense and wellbeing of the Terynor.
Bann - The local lord over a loose community of freeholders that has grown enough to have assembled a basic town center, equivalent to a township.
Freeholder - the owner of a farmstead that may cover several acres of land.  Local Freeholders come together in a loose community for mutual support and wellbeing to create a Bannorn. 
Serfs/Servants - Pretty much everyone that lives on a Freeholder's land and work for some sort of compensation.  They never get into the details of the servitude.  Whether it is indentured servitude, slavery, or social contract is never really explained as far as I know.

#15
Guns

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And to think Amaranthine was given to the Wardens. Sigh, the most idiotic thing a monarch can do.
To be honest, I did not expect Amaranthine to be this big. Nor did I think that it extended that much south of the Imperial highway. I do expect Highever and Gwaren to be of equal size, being Ternirs.
It could be that the Arling's size increased after the Blight, but we don't know.


Better the Wardens than the Howes.

#16
Wedger

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You are assuming the map is to scale and in perspective. Many ancient maps were not.



Still - I, too, wonder how big Gwaren is.

#17
maxernst

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I would assume that the Arling as shown would include the territory of all his vassals, so a map of Highever would likely have included Amaranthine and all the northern coastlands of Ferelden. As to Gwaren, well, the Bann in Lothering seemed to be under Loghain's military command,so it's quite possible that its area would stretch across the Southron hills to Lothering.

#18
MKDAWUSS

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And if you think this is a bit complex, try mapping out the borders to the nations of Thedas. The only one that's really defined is Ferelden, thanks to the coastlines and mountains.

#19
maxernst

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MKDAWUSS wrote...

And if you think this is a bit complex, try mapping out the borders to the nations of Thedas. The only one that's really defined is Ferelden, thanks to the coastlines and mountains.


Oh, that's a good point.  I was planning a journey from Val Royeaux to Weisshaupt for my fanfic and trying to figure out if the Silent Plains belong to Nevarra or Tevinter and whether the area around Kal Sharok is Orlais, Anderfels, or essnetially uninhabited highlands.

#20
Face of Evil

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Amaranthine is pretty big, but most of the region seems to be uninhabited. In terms of civilization, the arling really only consists of the port city and some outlying villages and farms.

#21
maxernst

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Face of Evil wrote...

Amaranthine is pretty big, but most of the region seems to be uninhabited. In terms of civilization, the arling really only consists of the port city and some outlying villages and farms.


Well, if Ferelden's a typical medieval landscape, the absence of cities doesn't tell us much about its population density...the vast majority of the population lived in small villages.  I would guess there would be at least a hundred villages for each city in Ferelden.

#22
Ulicus

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LEGION3000 wrote...

One other point I want to make is that drawing territorial boundry maps such as your first image is not really relevent to the political structure of Ferelden since Freeholders are free to choose whatever Bann they wish to support.  That means that you could litterally have some territory within your highlighted region that technically belong to Denerim or another Bann, or even more strangely, there are probably vast areas of wilderness forest that don't really belong to anyone because the land is too poor or forested for a freeholder to make use of it.  Remember that areas like the Kokari wilds don't really reside as part of anyone's Bann because no Freeholders want to live there.  Also from what we have seen, Ferelden doesn't appear to be suffering from overpopulation.  In fact I would say it was the opposite.  Due to the recent wars and Blight there are probably vast areas of perfectly habitable land that nobody is occupying.

Quite right. The borders were intended to be rough, emphasising only that the majority -- rather than the totality -- of the freeholders within would have pledged themselves to Amaranthine. But I soon came to the conclusion that borders weren't too helpful, and started using transluscent "areas of influence" that overlapped for my purposes.

LEGION3000 wrote...


My own take on the Ferelden nobility system is based largely on early feudalism.
King - The high Teryn to which all other Teryn swear fealty.
Teryn - The highest nobility below king to which All Arls and Banns swear fealty.  Tasked with maintaining peace among the Banns under their control and arranging military forces for the defence of the kingdom.
Arl - A Bann that has a particularly important Bannorn and is tasked with building and maintaining a castle for the defense and wellbeing of the Terynor.
Bann - The local lord over a loose community of freeholders that has grown enough to have assembled a basic town center, equivalent to a township.
Freeholder - the owner of a farmstead that may cover several acres of land.  Local Freeholders come together in a loose community for mutual support and wellbeing to create a Bannorn. 
Serfs/Servants - Pretty much everyone that lives on a Freeholder's land and work for some sort of compensation.

That's more of less accurate, by my understanding. You may be interested in the information on the nobility and commons from the DA traveller's guide:

Traveller's guide says...
*** The Nobility ***
~ King ~
Ferelden never had a concept of a king until the  infamous warrior Calenhad finally managed to unite the lands, and rather than assuming the expected title of teyrn of Denerim, he took the title of king, borrowed from other lands and inheriting the singular importance that the title has in those lands. The concept of a single overlord is an unfamiliar one in Ferelden: Numerous times throughout its history, the nation has all but split apart in civil war (the rebelliousness of Fereldan nobility is infamous). In the days of Calenhad and his successors, civil war was more caused by those teyrns who wished to break away from the king’s rule. In modern times, it has come to be expected that there is a king and must be one for Ferelden to survive—a very significant shift in attitude—and civil wars are fought more to determine royal succession. One’s blood relation to the king is considered important in the issue of succession, but more because the  ability to be a strong leader is considered to be passed down in the blood. If one is considered weak or unfit, however, blood relation to the king will not stop another noble from standing up and challenging  one’s claim to the throne.

The current king of Ferelden is Cailan, the young son of Maric. Maric was a legendary figure who claimed his kingship by winning a bloody war of independence from Orlais, primarily with the assistance of his general and best friend, a commoner by the name of Loghain (who was awarded the teyrnir of Gwaren). Maric’s legend is considered classic by Fereldan standards, and Loghain himself seems to epitomize the ideal that any Ferelden can rise to great heights by the virtue of his ability. Young King Cailan, by comparison, has very big  shoes to fill.

~ Teyrn ~
Plural: Teyrns
Female: Teyrna

“Teyrn” is the traditional title claimed by those warlords who had reached a level of power that they had other banns sworn to uphold them. Some teyrns did not keep their title for long, butsome families became powerful enough that the title was maintained and passed on to successive generations. The contention, then, as to which teyrn was dominant became the primary issue. Underneath the king, the teyrns of today are considered the most powerful nobles in the kingdom. They each have numerous banns sworn to uphold them and supply them with troops in times of war. The teyrn, in turn, is sworn to ride with his army to support the king when called. The title is comparable to the Orlesian duke. A teyrn’s land is called a “teyrnir.” There are currently two teyrns in Ferelden: Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir of Gwaren and Teyrn Bryce Cousland of Highever. Denerim itself is considered a teyrnir, but it is controlled by the king and his court. Most kings appoint a noble to the position of arl of Denerim. The arl is responsible for ruling the city, while the king is responsible for ruling the country.

~ Arl ~
Plural: Arls
Female: Arlessa

Originally this title was used by trusted commanders of a teyrn, usually his sons or a favored general. They were given command of a fortress or a piece of land that was of strategic importance but was too far away from the teyrn to administer personally, and they were given a title that placed them above that of a regular bann but without banns of his own to command. After King Calenhad assumed the throne and united Ferelden, those banns with lands near the borders or those who were of great importance (though not populated enough to be considered a teyrn) were elevated to the rank of arl and have held the rank ever since. This title is considered roughly equivalent to the Orlesian “count,” with an arling being the same as a “county.” There are currently five arls in Ferelden: Arl Eamon Guerrein of Redcliffe, Arl Rendon Howe of Amaranthine, Arl Gallagher Wulff of West Hills, Arl Leonas Bryland of South Reach, and Arl Urien Kendells of

Denerim.

~ Bann ~
Plural: Banns (or “Bannorn,” see below)
Female: Bann

This title has existed since the early barbaric days of the Alamarri people. The term originally referred to the chieftain of a particular tribe but has since grown into a title of respect roughly the equivalent of the Orlesian “baron.” There are a great many banns in the kingdom, and they have varying degrees of power: Some have  very large holdings of land and are considered to be very influential,  almost the equivalent of an arl or a teyrn on their own, while others are almost little more than glorified freeholders controlling a small village and a few farms. The central valley is filled with a great number of these small landholdings, each controlled by a bann who is characteristically not subject to a teyrn overlord and is considered stubbornly independent. As a region, this area is called “the Bannorn.” Seeing as it’s also a region where a great deal of Ferelden’s farming is done, the Bannorn wields a large amount of political influence, though this is only in times when they can agree on a common issue, which is not often. Their feuds sometimes even flare up into petty wars. Usually  the banns are split in their support between the teyrns and the king on most issues. It should probably be noted that “bann” is  gender-neutral—the wife or husband of a bann is given the “lady” or  “lord” honorific but has no actual title of their own.

~ Knight ~
Plural: Knights
Female: Knight

The knight is the essential heavy fighting soldier, in this case serving directly to a bann, arl, teyrn, or even the king. In this case, the knight gains some of the prestige of the master he serves: A knight who serves the king is more prestigious than a knight who serves a bann with little land. They are a tough group who value  fighting ability and leadership skills above all else. However, even the most prestigious knight is considered lower in rank than a bann and  possesses little political voice. As a group, they tend to scoff at the Orlesian ideal of the courtier knight, and while many knights are indeed nobles (i.e., they own land that’s generally restricted to a single estate), there is no codified behavior that Fereldan knights follow.  Another difference between the Fereldan knight and the Orlesian knight  is that the former are considered foot soldiers. The only ones who ride  horses (considered a mark of distinction) into battle are those sworn to the king. Fereldan knights can be men or women, but women are rarer and essentially are treated as men. Both share the honorific “ser” to  denote knighthood.

*** The Commoner classes ***

~ The Crafting class ~

In the days of the barbarians, those in the tribe who were considered craftsmen—the smiths, woodcarvers, and builders—were given a great amount of deference and in the tribe were considered only second to the bann himself. Over time, the various crafts organized  themselves into semiformalized “houses,” where information was traded between tribes, and (in the eyes of the craftsmen) their crafthouse was considered almost a tribe in and of itself. As the common wars between the tribes threatened this constant exchange of learning and apprentices, the crafthouses eventually created the mandate that the bonds to one’s house surpassed the bonds to one’s tribe. Naturally the banns fought this, but since any who did were denied the services of the crafthouse, they simply had no choice but to capitulate in the end. That sense of independence has continued: The major crafthouses of Ferelden are almost a law unto themselves insofar as their own bailiwick is concerned. While they hold no direct political voice, even a king would be fool to ignore them. Two other groups are considered to be a part of this social class as well, though neither of them actually “crafts” anything. The first is the Chantry. The priesthood in Ferelden is considered as honored a profession as a master craftsman, and socially the class holds the same kind of independence from local control and political deference when it comes to matters of religion. In other nations, however, the Chantry expects much more political influence than they are able to wield in Ferelden. Here, the common expectation is that they are not to influence issues not seen to directly concern them. It has been an issue of contention with the Chantry, and they are forever attempting to increase their influence in politics and social affairs, to varying degrees of success.

The second organization is the Traders’ Crafthouse. Merchants have traditionally been thought of in Ferelden as an untrustworthy bunch. Transactions are made with the crafters themselves and through agents of their crafthouse when necessary. The idea of buying goods and attempting to sell them at a profit is foreign, worthy  of suspicion, and not much above thieving or fraud. The dwarves were the first true merchants in Ferelden; to most this was acceptable, as the dwarves were seen as the finest of craftsmen. It did not enter anyone’s mind that the dwarves probably did not make the items they brought up from Orzammar, and the dwarven merchants did nothing to dispel the idea.The dwarves eventually established various large trading posts in the cities at the behest of the banns (who wanted access to dwarven goods, naturally), and they offered their services to local crafthouses. For many crafthouses, the process of transporting and selling goods was considered more of a distraction to their true purpose, and they welcomed the arrangement. Fereldan smiths agreed only so long as the  dwarves stopped their practice of selling superior dwarven goods at  undercut prices, to which the dwarves readily agreed. So the dwarves became the masters of the Traders Crafthouse, which has expanded over  the years to employ primarily Fereldan workers—as locals respond better  to humans behind the counter—and to partner with guilds from the Free Marches to provide the shipping that Fereldan ports demand.

~ Freemen ~

Beneath the Crafting class lies the freemen, and while this social class can technically be split into “High Freemen”  (freeholders, innkeepers, tavern owners, guardsmen, and other employed citizens) and “Low Freemen” (criminals, elves, prostitutes, and other  ne’er-do-wells), they are really the same class. Unlike in other nations such as the Orlesian Empire, there is no class of serfs or slaves: One man is not permitted to own another, regardless of station, and all men are essentially free. Slaves are allowed to be transported across  Ferelden on their way to Orlais or other places, but should any slave break free and demand their recognition as a freeman, they would not be denied. The Fereldan people would never allow the slave trade to take  root, and this is indicative of Fereldan attitudes—since the earliest times of the Alamarri tribes, they have been difficult to subjugate (as the Imperium discovered for themselves).


EDIT: formatting

Modifié par Ulicus, 17 décembre 2010 - 10:55 .


#23
Vaanarash

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Out of curiosity Ulicus, and completely off topic, what program did you use to shade that original picture in with?

Peace, Vaan.