188 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaron Oberyn]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Spectre 7 wrote...

Mass Effect 2 is tied for the second highest rated game on the 360, so I could really care less if people think of it as an RPG or not. Its good. Period.

Even though they dumbed it down? Even though half the dialogue was automatic? Did you play LoTSB? I have to agree with the OP, Bioware's abandoning their old standards in an effort to be more like the shooter genre. Denial wil get you no where.

-Polite

Your assuming that some of us hold RPG standards above Shooter standards.

Most do. If you prefer shooter genres, unfortunately you're the minority in contrast to the RPG element fanboys.

-Polite

[Onyx Jaguar]

What? That goes against all marketing trend and sales demographics

I'd take something that works over something that is there as a replacement for a working part any day, even if there are more choices in the replacement parts to choose from

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 19 novembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

What? That goes against all marketing trend and sales demographics

? RPG fans are more prominent on this forum than shooter fans. Face it, Bioware has made a business out of RPG's. They've built a fan base out of people who play their games simply for the role playing aspect, and their uniqueness. 

Only recently has Bioware started to introduce the shooter fans to the RPG world. They started with ME1, but didn't achieve the results they expected. With ME2, they geared the mechanics more towards shooter fans, while watering down the RPG mechanics because of their "complex" nature. Apparently shooter fans don't know how to upgrade equipment and such.

So yes, most people on this forum do prefer RPG mechanics over shooter. It's a pretty well known fact. If you think otherwise then that's just ignorance.

-Polite

[AdmiralCheez]

@Polite: Yeah, but only a small percentage of players go on the forums. Five of my friends all love the ME series, but none of them have even read any of the threads.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 19 novembre 2010 - 12:43 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I don't care about this forum I'm talking about demographics overall. It seems like 55% of the people on this forum detest everything Bioware does.

Besides there is nothing complex about leveling up in ME 1 to increase ****ing accuracy. It was a bull**** mechanic that was thankfully eliminated from the second installment. When I have countless games that play better why shoudl I grasp onto these elements that are holding the game back.

I mean the damn game plays like GRAW except you have to spend 20 hours leveling up your character to match what you get right away in GRAW. There is nothing complex about that, its tedious and the only reason they got away with it in the first game is because the AI sucked and the gameplay around it was so good.

Such a mechanic flat out doesn't work well in an active system

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 19 novembre 2010 - 12:45 .

[AdmiralCheez]

@Onyx: Leveling up for accuracy DOES seem ridiculous, especially when you can get better upgrades for your guns, anyway.

[Jaron Oberyn]

mrsph wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Most do. If you prefer shooter genres, unfortunately you're the minority in contrast to the RPG element fanboys.

-Polite

You really can't say something like this without some kind of supporting evidence.

So the fanbase of an RPG company has been overcome by the new shooter fanbase? My statements are self-evident. it's purely common sense. Take a look around the forums and you will see many people complaining about how ME2 lacked RPG elements. I doubt many complain that it lacked shooter mechanics. 

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Polite: Yeah, but only a small percentage of players go on the forums. Five of my friends all love the ME series, but none of them have even read any of the threads.

What players? RPG fans or Shooter fans?

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I don't care about this forum I'm talking about demographics overall. It seems like 55% of the people on this forum detest everything Bioware does. 

Besides there is nothing complex about leveling up in ME 1 to increase ****ing accuracy. It was a bull**** mechanic that was thankfully eliminated from the second installment. When I have countless games that play better why shoudl I grasp onto these elements that are holding the game back. 

I mean the damn game plays like GRAW except you have to spend 20 hours leveling up your character to match what you get right away in GRAW. There is nothing complex about that, its tedious and the only reason they got away with it in the first game is because the AI sucked and the gameplay around it was so good.

Such a mechanic flat out doesn't work well in an active system

Um.. Calm down? The mechanics of ME1 weren't complex at all, for the average RPG gamer. But for people coming straight out of shooter games, it was far too complicated. Bioware dumbed it down for that portion of the fan base in ME2. ME2's gameplay didn't seam to appeal to them in any greater way either, so naturally it's expected that Bioware will dumb down ME2's mechanics even more for ME3. The global RPG fan base isn't as big as the global Shooter fan base. Bioware, now being a part of EA, is now gearing their games towards the largest global fan base. Currently, due to Call of Duty and Halo, it's Shooters. I can understand and sympathize with those who are concerned with ME3's gameplay change in contrast with ME2, or even ME1.

-Polite

[Onyx Jaguar]

Call of Duty games have stats on their weapons and around these parts the "RPG" hardcore "Elite" guys would make it out that that game is made for morons. You are just wrong.

Also you could do customization as well.

GOOD GOD SUCH THINGS SLIGHTLY ALTERED IN SEQUEL EA IS DUMBING DOWN GAMES FOR MASSES

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 19 novembre 2010 - 12:56 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Call of Duty games have stats on their weapons and around these parts the "RPG" hardcore "Elite" guys would make it out that that game is made for morons. You are just wrong.

I'll take your word for it. 

mrsph wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
So the fanbase of an RPG company has been overcome by the new shooter fanbase? My statements are self-evident. it's purely common sense. Take a look around the forums and you will see many people complaining about how ME2 lacked RPG elements. I doubt many complain that it lacked shooter mechanics. 

This board is not a good source. Because only a vocal minority on both sides actually post here. 

Also it hates everything Bioware does.

Not everything Bioware does, just the recent decisions they've been making which seem to be reflecting their acquisition from EA. Understandably, people are not satisfied with the quality of their games now. EA is about profits, not about quality. We're approaching a time when we'll have a Mass Effect shooter out every year like the Battlefield or CoD series. Although COD wasn't that bad considering two separate companies worked on the games and released them in alternating years. 

-Polite

[Onyx Jaguar]

Then you have the EA published Shooter Dead Space, where you could upgrade and level up weapons attack rating and ammo capacity, plus you could manage an inventory. Obviously made for morons.



Then you have Half-Life which has none of that but has logic and physics puzzles throughout.



Damn these games for existing tricking us stupid people into liking them

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yeah also it is rumored that Bioware Montreal is working on this, not the main line Bioware team. IF true that is like the Infinity Ward/Treyarch thing.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Then you have the EA published Shooter Dead Space, where you could upgrade and level up weapons attack rating and ammo capacity, plus you could manage an inventory. Obviously made for morons.

Then you have Half-Life which has none of that but has logic and physics puzzles throughout.

Damn these games for existing tricking us stupid people into liking them

Your point? I don't see where you're going with this.

-Polite

[DOYOURLABS]

PoliteAssasin wrote...


 The mechanics of ME1 weren't complex at all, for the average RPG gamer. But for people coming straight out of shooter games, it was far too complicated.

I forgot how difficult it was to assign points to skills. ME1 was my first game with ANY customization and I handled it just fine. When assigning points, it would tell you what it was doing. Nothing complicated about that.

In ME2, instead of having an inventory of re-textured weapons, we unlock new ones through the course of the game. Armor customization for Shepard is much better than ME1, and so is combat. Making shooter mechanics better isn't pandering to shooter fans, its making a game better.

 Should they have taken out squad armor, and individual cool downs? No. Was it smart lore wise to make an ammo system? No. ME2 had mistakes but it was a much better game.  

And Mass Effect doesn't need to be a complete RPG. I'd rather have a shooter with a great story, than a terrible RPG with a million customization options.

[MegaRekyyli]

Well, it's a good thing you guarantee it so we don't have to worry anymore! Laa di da di daa!

[Onyx Jaguar]

That so called "dumbing down" to attract the "Shooter crowd" is nonsense when those games have complex mechanics themselves. Just pure RPG elitism is all I see round these parts.

[AdmiralCheez]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Your point? I don't see where you're going with this.

-Polite

His point is that shooters can be good and that people who play them aren't all heckling ****** meathead jocks.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Yeah also it is rumored that Bioware Montreal is working on this, not the main line Bioware team. IF true that is like the Infinity Ward/Treyarch thing.

You misunderstand my previous statement. I stated that once the first ME shooter comes out, the subsequent games will most likely be released every year like EA's battlefield/CoD. 

When I mentioned Treyarch/Infinity Ward, it was because two companies worked on two separate Shooter games. If Bioware Montreal is working on the project, they're the only ones working on it. Unless one of Bioware's current studio picks up the ball, or they expand, it will be upon one studio alone. That will inevitably result in a decrease in quality of the games. 

-Polite

[DOYOURLABS]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Your point? I don't see where you're going with this.

-Polite

His point is that shooters can be good and that people who play them aren't all heckling ****** meathead jocks.

This. RPG Elitism is the reason for most ME2 complaints. 

[Onyx Jaguar]

That could very well happen. A new series of shorter Mass Effect themed games. Who knows? Call of Duty and Halo are where they are at because of gigantic sales. Mass Effect is still around Red Dead sales.

Those franchises can support large teams working on fixed schedules on annual releases. If this so called spinoff does the same, sure that could happen.  But most likely not with ME 3. 

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:10 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Your point? I don't see where you're going with this.

-Polite

His point is that shooters can be good and that people who play them aren't all heckling ****** meathead jocks.

I never stated that. I play CoD and Halo. I enjoy them. But I can also go into an RPG game and expect a fully new experience. Not all Shooter fans can do that. People who primarily play shooter genre games typically expect a very similar experience in any game that features a gun. I have no problems with RPG and Shooter mechanics mixing. I believe it's an excellent idea if executed properly. If you weight one more than the other, then it doesn't tend to do well. 

The two main issues with ME2 are

1. The dumbing down of RPG elements such as choice, dialogue, inventory, story, and consequences to appeal to a new fan base.

2. The unequal distribution of Shooter and RPG mechanics. Like it or not, ME2 was more of a blockbuster shooter than an rpg. 

-Polite

[AdmiralCheez]

@Polite: And not all RPG fans can get into a shooter. Frankly, I think forcing games to conform to a genre is damaging to possible innovation. And what is all this "dumbing down" business about anyway? Back in ME1 I'd just pick the gun with the most yellow bars, slap on the highest level upgrades to match what I was shooting at, and spend my EXP to get to the next circle or triangle. In ME2, I have to think carefully about where I spend my squad points, since they're such a limited resource, and I have to test out each gun in different situations to see which works best. Sure, there are only, like, three per category, but it sure beats "oh look the stats are higher I should equip this one and spent the next five minutes either omnigelling or selling the rest of this crap!"



And I don't know about you, but most shooters don't focus on character development and team management. Sure, the main story sucked, but less menu screens and numbers does not a dumber game make.

[Archereon]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Polite: And not all RPG fans can get into a shooter. Frankly, I think forcing games to conform to a genre is damaging to possible innovation. And what is all this "dumbing down" business about anyway? Back in ME1 I'd just pick the gun with the most yellow bars, slap on the highest level upgrades to match what I was shooting at, and spend my EXP to get to the next circle or triangle. In ME2, I have to think carefully about where I spend my squad points, since they're such a limited resource, and I have to test out each gun in different situations to see which works best. Sure, there are only, like, three per category, but it sure beats "oh look the stats are higher I should equip this one and spent the next five minutes either omnigelling or selling the rest of this crap!"

And I don't know about you, but most shooters don't focus on character development and team management. Sure, the main story sucked, but less menu screens and numbers does not a dumber game make.

If your playing the main Shepard class (soldier, more than 80% of ME2 players picked soldier), then it really doesn't matter what your skills are, you just point and SHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT (not enuff daka though)!!!

And what I really fear is that Bioware will pull a metroid on us, failing to advance the plot to ME2 and bogging us down in endless prequels and spinoffs.

Modifié par Archereon, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:30 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Polite: And not all RPG fans can get into a shooter. Frankly, I think forcing games to conform to a genre is damaging to possible innovation. And what is all this "dumbing down" business about anyway? Back in ME1 I'd just pick the gun with the most yellow bars, slap on the highest level upgrades to match what I was shooting at, and spend my EXP to get to the next circle or triangle. In ME2, I have to think carefully about where I spend my squad points, since they're such a limited resource, and I have to test out each gun in different situations to see which works best. Sure, there are only, like, three per category, but it sure beats "oh look the stats are higher I should equip this one and spent the next five minutes either omnigelling or selling the rest of this crap!"

And I don't know about you, but most shooters don't focus on character development and team management. Sure, the main story sucked, but less menu screens and numbers does not a dumber game make.

In ME1 you had more leveling diversification. You had many skills that you could invest in. In ME2 you have about 5 per class, and only 4 slots each, where once you reached the final you can choose one of two ultimate forms of the skills. In ME1, you could choose whether your soldier specialized in snipers, pistols, AR's, or whatever. In ME2 there isn't that amount of customizability. 

However, we all have our opinions of the most ideal game. So it's open to interpretation. Arguing about which genre is better is useless. They're both great in their respective ways. But the approach Bioware's taking in combining the two genres isn't really appealing to many.

-Polite