197 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Aermas wrote...

I edited the title as to narrow my point

The answer is 'none.' Warriors and mages get no unique non-combat utility.

[Jarek_Cousland]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Aermas wrote...

I edited the title as to narrow my point

The answer is 'none.' Warriors and mages get no unique non-combat utility.

BWAHAHA Your attempts at class balance have failed you young one!!! :devil:

[ejoslin]

I'm not sure why class balancing to this extent would be necessary in a single player game. The player character is the only one who can smooth talk people. Anyone can actually steal, make poisons, make potions, make traps, learn survivalism, so all classes could have non-combat utility in DA:O. I like that some classes can do what others can't, however.

[Ziggeh]

Aermas wrote...

I edited the title as to narrow my point

Alrighty, I'll bite.

Why do you think they should have them? I don't see that not having them already is a reason. Or if it is, I want a rocket powered unicorn.

[Arrtis]

Warriors need to be capable of picking up extra amount of loot.

SUch as mage adn rogues get 100 slots the warrior can pick up the pack mule skill to add 25 extra slots that is stackable for all warriors in the party.

Mages get easier traveling in dungeons.

THey can quickly run to an exit...so fast it is like teleporting.

[Jarek_Cousland]

Arrtis wrote...

Warriors need to be capable of picking up extra amount of loot.
SUch as mage adn rogues get 100 slots the warrior can pick up the pack mule skill to add 25 extra slots that is stackable for all warriors in the party.
Mages get easier traveling in dungeons.
THey can quickly run to an exit...so fast it is like teleporting.

Kewl story bro.

[Aermas]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Aermas wrote...

I edited the title as to narrow my point

Alrighty, I'll bite.

Why do you think they should have them? I don't see that not having them already is a reason. Or if it is, I want a rocket powered unicorn.

Pasted from page one
The thing is; Rogues used to suck in combat, they could fight but they didn't fight well, now there is a change in the perceptions of what a rogue does making them more & more combat related & less of a skill monkey. In DA2 they are making the rogue have on par fighting abilities as the other classes, albeit in a different role (single target DPS), but they continue to be more useful than any other class when outside of combat because of there lockpicking skills. In Origins it was more rewarding to play a rogue because you didn't have to worry about always having Leliana or Zevran in the party, & you could loot the origin levels of loot.



I would like to see Warriors able to knockdown "stuck" doors, this would be a different mechanic than Lockpick because there is not lock to pick (just a really heavy door) & maybe push objects around (like in the mage origins when you have to move the bookshelf) They could call it Athletics or something & it would work of strength.

This would add a realistic level of gameplay & make Warriors more useful. That way you go through a shortcut if you have a warrior in the party to move the bookcase, & go the long route if you didn't

[Crimson Invictus]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
I want a rocket powered unicorn.

So you can live in harmony harmony?

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Warriors -- open the pickle jar. Carry things. (Maybe an Intimidate skill to complement Persuasion?)



Mages --- those robes come off quickly. Dark corner, a couple mage followers, I'm just saying. (Maybe a Lore skill to give them unique dialogue options)

[Ziggeh]

Aermas wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Aermas wrote...

I edited the title as to narrow my point

Alrighty, I'll bite.

Why do you think they should have them? I don't see that not having them already is a reason. Or if it is, I want a rocket powered unicorn.

Pasted from page one
The thing is; Rogues used to suck in combat, they could fight but they didn't fight well, now there is a change in the perceptions of what a rogue does making them more & more combat related & less of a skill monkey. In DA2 they are making the rogue have on par fighting abilities as the other classes, albeit in a different role (single target DPS), but they continue to be more useful than any other class when outside of combat because of there lockpicking skills. In Origins it was more rewarding to play a rogue because you didn't have to worry about always having Leliana or Zevran in the party, & you could loot the origin levels of loot.

Okay, maybe my question was badly worded: What is the problem with rogues having non combat utlity and others not?

[Halfno]

I never really played a mage in origins but don't they have a movement speed buff?

[dreman9999]

Mages-making potions.
Fighters-bashing locks.

[Super_Fr33k]

The things I think we're missing is that, in DA:O, main character rogues got more quests and options than warriors or mages did. You got all origin loot and extra xp, along with an extra quest series from Slim Coudry (or w/e his name was). Beyond just gameplay balance, I think the thread starter is trying to get at story responsiveness: your class should make the world respond in unique and surprising ways to you. Remember how each class in BG2 had a class-specific quest, plus a stronghold?



Rogues are meant to have more dirty tricks than other classes, but I think DA2 has an opportunity to provide more narrative balance, especially to warriors. Rogues can seize lots of opportunities, mages have Fade lore and a terrifying reputation, but warriors don't feel particularly special or epic. I think a balance can be struck that makes each class feel more like the world is responding to their unique persona and training.

[Marionetten]

Be nice to have the ability to use blood magic and other skills during dialogue sequences. Kind of like how it worked in VtM: Bloodlines.

[Aermas]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Okay, maybe my question was badly worded: What is the problem with rogues having non combat utlity and others not?

My problem is that for some reason they are just as combat effective as any other class, but they have the added bonus of restricted area's, XP, & quests. But the warrior gets nothing, why does the warrior always get nothing?

[Aermas]

DP

[Axekix]

Well... warriors tend to pass intimidation checks a bit easier. That's something.

[Aermas]

----9----- wrote...

Aermas wrote...

In DA2 they are making the rogue have on par fighting abilities as the other classes, albeit in a different role (single target DPS), but they continue to be more useful than any other class when outside of combat because of there lockpicking skills.

Dual Weapon Sweep and Whirlwind is not limited to a single target. But I don't know if these will be available in DA 2.

One utility that might be added to a Mage would be to 'see' what's in a locked chest.

It's difficult to discuss adding new 'skills' or talents when we don't exactly know how BW has changed changed the skill/talent trees. Or if there will be a pool of skills generally available to all classes and how they work. In DA:O for example, I found that if you give a Warrior 4
levels of Trap Making, he/she still can place traps, but not spot nor disarm them - it still takes a Rogue; so it's a waste to put any points there (cunning seems to have no effect). If you find it useful, you only need one character with Survival. Any class can use the Poison set, which is sometimes useful for coating weapons with poisons or grenades, as it only takes 1.

From what the skill tree in DA 2 has been described, it sounds like you have better control over what you choose without having to select Flame Weapon to get Fireball. So you could have a basic, but limited skill for all classes, but perhaps only one class could further develop it. Like the lock problem. At it's lowest level, perhaps the Rogue could open some low level locks, the Mage could 'see' what's in it and the Warrior an option of breaking a low level lock.

This is what we know.

The warrior's combat role is (AOE)
The Rogue's combat role is (High DPS)

They are fairly equal in combat effectiveness.

The warrior's non-combat role (nothing)
The Rogue's non-combat role (finding traps, opening chests, special quests)

Do you see the problem?

[Revan312]

Aermas wrote...
This is what we know.

The warrior's combat role is (AOE)
The Rogue's combat role is (High DPS)

They are fairly equal in combat effectiveness.

The warrior's non-combat role (nothing)
The Rogue's non-combat role (finding traps, opening chests, special quests)

Do you see the problem?

no.. because this is a single player game and balance to the extent your talking about is reserved for MMO's

Why do Blood Mages get to solo everything and have higher hitpoints than a sword and board warrior? Why do mages get to heal, deal the highest dps and have almost all the CC, because it's how the classes work.

If the game were to be balanced properly you would have DA2 pushed back to march 2013..... But it's a SPRPG so there's no need.

[Aermas]

I don't like to be forced to do things just to get full completion.

Also saying that things weren't balanced in the first game so why should they be balanced in the sequel, is not a good or logical argument.

[Kroaks]

I think to give each class non-combat based utility it would be best if they differed more from say using different ways to open a door.



Can't think of anything right now but as a concept they should each have a unique and distinct non-combat utlity to the class if they choose to go that route.

[blothulfur]

Good point Aermas I too would like to see more non combat usefulness in both mage and warrior, maybe mages summoning fire to light darkened corridors, tearing down magical barriers or summoning and conversing with spirits and as you say have warriors perform feats of strength such as lifting a portcullis or holding a door closed against some enemy. It doesn't all have to be about combat.

[Eveangaline]

Aermas wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Okay, maybe my question was badly worded: What is the problem with rogues having non combat utlity and others not?

My problem is that for some reason they are just as combat effective as any other class, but they have the added bonus of restricted area's, XP, & quests. But the warrior gets nothing, why does the warrior always get nothing?

They were combat effective, but not combat necesary. You need mages for healing, and warriors for tanks. But warriors could also dps, and mages could dps, meaning the one thing rogues can do in combat can be done just as well (actually better) by other classes. That's why they get out of combat utility. Because otherwise people would just do one tank with three mages cone of cold-ing everything into submission. Battle makes the other two classes needed. Out of combat stuff makes the rogues needed. It all balances out.

[Aermas]

Eveangaline wrote...

Aermas wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Okay, maybe my question was badly worded: What is the problem with rogues having non combat utlity and others not?

My problem is that for some reason they are just as combat effective as any other class, but they have the added bonus of restricted area's, XP, & quests. But the warrior gets nothing, why does the warrior always get nothing?

They were combat effective, but not combat necesary. You need mages for healing, and warriors for tanks. But warriors could also dps, and mages could dps, meaning the one thing rogues can do in combat can be done just as well (actually better) by other classes. That's why they get out of combat utility. Because otherwise people would just do one tank with three mages cone of cold-ing everything into submission. Battle makes the other two classes needed. Out of combat stuff makes the rogues needed. It all balances out.

Rogues are combat effective in DA2 NOW! So your arguments is defenestrated.

I like Blothlfur's idea about mages casting light, & I will add Mage Hand to the list of useful things.

Modifié par Aermas, 19 novembre 2010 - 04:16 .