197 réponses à ce sujet

[Ortaya Alevli]

Xewaka wrote...

If rogues had no utility, why would you bring them to an adventuring party when the other two classes can do what rogues can do, and more, in combat?

I wouldn't.

[Awildawn]

It was funny reading the first page of the topic and the OP desperate plea to talk about non-combat related skills.

I would be curious to see if mage spells will be included in conversation options or if the warrior prowess could be used to identify better weapons/armors when dealing with a merchant... I don't think it will be the case though.

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

not all, i agree, but on instances where the player is forced to take another route due to a large obstruction like a big toppled statue. a warrior could lift it or cleave it so the team can pass or access an area with treasure (much like how the golem worked in the fade towards heavy doors). 

Assuming they give this kind of utility to Warriors and Mages, what secondary combat utility would you add to rogues to compensate?

in DA2 they're already the only class to have both efficient melee and ranged abilities.

warriors are tied down to melee range and while mages can go melee, it's really not advisable to do so unless you build your mage from scratch to be a tank.

[Xewaka]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

If rogues had no utility, why would you bring them to an adventuring party when the other two classes can do what rogues can do, and more, in combat?

I wouldn't.

Thank you for proving my point, then.

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

If rogues had no utility, why would you bring them to an adventuring party when the other two classes can do what rogues can do, and more, in combat?

I wouldn't.

Thank you for proving my point, then.

and now they can do more in combat, putting them up on equal terms with warriors and mages as far as combat goes. the fault in this however, is that in non-combat scenarios rogues maintain the skills they had where as warriors and mages are left out in the dust in that department.


best case scenario would be to give warriors and mages something only they can do out of battle so all classes are evened out both in and out of combat.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 19 novembre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Xewaka wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

If rogues had no utility, why would you bring them to an adventuring party when the other two classes can do what rogues can do, and more, in combat?

I wouldn't.

Thank you for proving my point, then.

Except that rogues do have mundane skills.

Suppose you come to my store to buy a new computer. For your budget, I present you three options.

Option 1: Quad-core CPU, 4GB RAM, 1GB-memory graphics card, gigabit ethernet support for network access, wi-fi support for wireless network access, etc.

Option 2: Dual-core CPU, 8GB RAM, 1.5GB-memory graphics card, gigabit ethernet support for network access, wi-fi support for wireless network access, etc.

Option 3: Dual-core CPU, 4GB RAM, 1GB-memory graphics card, gigabit ethernet support for network access, PSC all-in-one office solution.

You see where I'm getting at?

[Xewaka]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

If rogues had no utility, why would you bring them to an adventuring party when the other two classes can do what rogues can do, and more, in combat?

I wouldn't.

Thank you for proving my point, then.

Except that rogues do have mundane skills.

Suppose you come to my store to buy a new computer. For your budget, I present you three options.

Option 1: Quad-core CPU, 4GB RAM, 1GB-memory graphics card, gigabit ethernet support for network access, wi-fi support for wireless network access, etc.

Option 2: Dual-core CPU, 8GB RAM, 1.5GB-memory graphics card, gigabit ethernet support for network access, wi-fi support for wireless network access, etc.

Option 3: Dual-core CPU, 4GB RAM, 1GB-memory graphics card, gigabit ethernet support for network access, PSC all-in-one office solution.

You see where I'm getting at?

I think so (I'm not sure what exactly PSC stands for, but I'm assuming an ofimatic package). Keeping with your analogy, you're offering me two powerful hardware with different specs and a third, less powerful hardware with software thrown in to fill up the budget. So you offer to compensate the lower raw performance with a set of tools which are roughly the same value than the lost specs.
So you agree that for the same value, if I'm given less potent hardware, there should be a way to compensate the budget through software.

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

If rogues had no utility, why would you bring them to an adventuring party when the other two classes can do what rogues can do, and more, in combat?

I wouldn't.

Thank you for proving my point, then.

Except that rogues do have mundane skills.

Suppose you come to my store to buy a new computer. For your budget, I present you three options.

Option 1: Quad-core CPU, 4GB RAM, 1GB-memory graphics card, gigabit ethernet support for network access, wi-fi support for wireless network access, etc.

Option 2: Dual-core CPU, 8GB RAM, 1.5GB-memory graphics card, gigabit ethernet support for network access, wi-fi support for wireless network access, etc.

Option 3: Dual-core CPU, 4GB RAM, 1GB-memory graphics card, gigabit ethernet support for network access, PSC all-in-one office solution.

You see where I'm getting at?

I think so (I'm not sure what exactly PSC stands for, but I'm assuming an ofimatic package). Keeping with your analogy, you're offering me two powerful hardware with different specs and a third, less powerful hardware with software thrown in to fill up the budget. So you offer to compensate the lower raw performance with a set of tools which are roughly the same value than the lost specs.
So you agree that for the same value, if I'm given less potent hardware, there should be a way to compensate the budget through software.

except that now the rogue class doesn't have that flaw or less potency.

[Xewaka]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

except that now the rogue class doesn't have that flaw or less potency.

Warriors have AoE damage and damage soaking abilities. Mages have AoE damage and healing abilities. Rogues have single-target damage. Yes, they can choose the range at which they deal damage, but still lack a second function in combat (that I'm aware of), thus they get the off-combat utility role.

[Pzykozis]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

except that now the rogue class doesn't have that flaw or less potency.

My rogues can tank and heal?!

[nightcobra]

Pzykozis wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

except that now the rogue class doesn't have that flaw or less potency.

My rogues can tank and heal?!

they can kill faster, against single targets they're more powerful than warriors and can switch between melee/combat efficiently.

for me the ability to fight efficiently at all ranges is more than enough.

warriors have to get in close, mages are vulnerable at melee and rogues can do it well both ways.
also they're more likely to hit the enemy and are harder to hit than both classes.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 19 novembre 2010 - 02:01 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Xewaka wrote...

I think so (I'm not sure what exactly PSC stands for, but I'm assuming an ofimatic package). Keeping with your analogy, you're offering me two powerful hardware with different specs and a third, less powerful hardware with software thrown in to fill up the budget. So you offer to compensate the lower raw performance with a set of tools which are roughly the same value than the lost specs.
So you agree that for the same value, if I'm given less potent hardware, there should be a way to compensate the budget through software.

To clarify, PSC stands for printer/scanner/copier.

I'm offering you two options with varied strengths and two means for network access each and a less powerful configuration with only one means for network access plus a printer, a scanner and a copier.

Now, in your case, I wouldn't bring along a rogue with no mundane skills because there are options more efficient at killing. But that doesn't mean different ways of killing compensates for a lack of mundane skills. I can form an all-rogue party and complete any task the game throws my way, but the same doesn't hold true for an all-warrior or all-mage party. The third computer can do everything the others can PLUS scan and print. An extra means to access networks do not make up for a lack of office solution.

[nightcobra]

Pzykozis wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

except that now the rogue class doesn't have that flaw or less potency.

My rogues can tank and heal?!

a rogue won't need to, that's a rogue's specialty, to not get hit at all.

[Eveangaline]

Aermas wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Aermas wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Okay, maybe my question was badly worded: What is the problem with rogues having non combat utlity and others not?

My problem is that for some reason they are just as combat effective as any other class, but they have the added bonus of restricted area's, XP, & quests. But the warrior gets nothing, why does the warrior always get nothing?

They were combat effective, but not combat necesary. You need mages for healing, and warriors for tanks. But warriors could also dps, and mages could dps, meaning the one thing rogues can do in combat can be done just as well (actually better) by other classes. That's why they get out of combat utility. Because otherwise people would just do one tank with three mages cone of cold-ing everything into submission. Battle makes the other two classes needed. Out of combat stuff makes the rogues needed. It all balances out.

Rogues are combat effective in DA2 NOW! So your arguments is defenestrated.

...except I said they were combat effective, but not combat necessary. Again, if rogues didn't have non combat utility, I, and probably others, would have gone with Warrior + 3 mages all the time. Warriors are needed because of tanking, mages are needed because of healing. Since rogues do dps, which mages and tanks do just fine, they are not needed. The only thing that makes them needed is their non combat utility.

[Xewaka]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

To clarify, PSC stands for printer/scanner/copier.

I'm offering you two options with varied strengths and two means for network access each and a less powerful configuration with only one means for network access plus a printer, a scanner and a copier.

Now, in your case, I wouldn't bring along a rogue with no mundane skills because there are options more efficient at killing. But that doesn't mean different ways of killing compensates for a lack of mundane skills. I can form an all-rogue party and complete any task the game throws my way, but the same doesn't hold true for an all-warrior or all-mage party. The third computer can do everything the others can PLUS scan and print. An extra means to access networks do not make up for a lack of office solution.

See, this is where we disagree. I believe the mundane skills on rogues are there to compensate the lack of in-combat utility (damage soaking or healing), whereas you believe that the in-combat utility is there to compensate mundane skills.

Modifié par Xewaka, 19 novembre 2010 - 02:05 .

[blothulfur]

Mage: Sense lyrium and powerful enchantments or rips in the fade, decipher ancient writings and steal into an enemies dreams to discover secrets.

Warrior: Can't think of anything beyond feats of strength and maybe a veterans knowledge of tactics and enemies.

Rogue: As in AD&D with their stealth and infiltration skills a rogue makes the perfect scout and trapspringer, if played well they can dominate any situation.

I don't think Aermas wants to gimp the rogue just flesh out the other classes a bit so they all feel more useful in the party like in old tabletop games, which is where I got most of this and my last posts ideas from.

[Xewaka]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

[...]also they're more likely to hit the enemy and are harder to hit than both classes.

I would like to know the source of this, if you would be so kind.

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

To clarify, PSC stands for printer/scanner/copier.

I'm offering you two options with varied strengths and two means for network access each and a less powerful configuration with only one means for network access plus a printer, a scanner and a copier.

Now, in your case, I wouldn't bring along a rogue with no mundane skills because there are options more efficient at killing. But that doesn't mean different ways of killing compensates for a lack of mundane skills. I can form an all-rogue party and complete any task the game throws my way, but the same doesn't hold true for an all-warrior or all-mage party. The third computer can do everything the others can PLUS scan and print. An extra means to access networks do not make up for a lack of office solution.

See, this is where we disagree. I believe the mundane skills on rogues are there to compensate the lack of in-combat utility (damage soaking or healing), whereas you believe that the in-combat utility is there to compensate mundane skills.

and that where i disagree.

warriors have tanking

mages have healing

rogues have evading

in my point of view they don't lack a thing in terms of combat of what we know of DA2's battle system

[Ortaya Alevli]

Xewaka wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

To clarify, PSC stands for printer/scanner/copier.

I'm offering you two options with varied strengths and two means for network access each and a less powerful configuration with only one means for network access plus a printer, a scanner and a copier.

Now, in your case, I wouldn't bring along a rogue with no mundane skills because there are options more efficient at killing. But that doesn't mean different ways of killing compensates for a lack of mundane skills. I can form an all-rogue party and complete any task the game throws my way, but the same doesn't hold true for an all-warrior or all-mage party. The third computer can do everything the others can PLUS scan and print. An extra means to access networks do not make up for a lack of office solution.

See, this is where we disagree. I believe the mundane skills on rogues are there to compensate the lack of in-combat utility (damage soaking or healing), whereas you believe that the in-combat utility is there to compensate mundane skills.

All I believe is, combat is just one aspect of a roleplaying game. We have two classes that excel at one aspect and have zero value when it comes to other aspects, and a third class which is decent enough in one aspect and have more than zero value in other aspects.

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

[...]also they're more likely to hit the enemy and are harder to hit than both classes.

I would like to know the source of this, if you would be so kind.

i'll try to dig the info, i think it's in the peter thomas gameplay thread.

[Xewaka]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

All I believe is, combat is just one aspect of a roleplaying game. We have two classes that excel at one aspect and have zero value when it comes to other aspects, and a third class which is decent enough in one aspect and have more than zero value in other aspects.

Were we speaking of actual, pen and paper roleplaying, I'd agree with that statement (I hardly, if ever, actually play a main combat character. I tend to play support and utility characters). However, on videogame RPGs, combat is by far the most important aspect of the game. Yes, I know there's diplomacy and talking on vgRPG; however most videogames tie the diplomacy aspect to abilities external to class (thus all classes have the same value when on diplomacy situations).

nightcobra8928 wrote...

i'll try to dig the info, i think it's in the peter thomas gameplay thread.

I'll take a look as well. I read the thread, but I don't remember that bit. Thank you.

Modifié par Xewaka, 19 novembre 2010 - 02:16 .

[nightcobra]

from seb hanlon



Q:Can we avoid a hit from an enemy using a defensive move or will it be unavoidable?





A:The rogue (as shown at PAX) has a combat ability that allows them to move quickly out of harm's way. Details of other abilities haven't been finalized or released yet.











i'll try to find if there's more.

[nightcobra]

here's a bit more info on rogue. (still not over however)

The Rogue is focused on single target DPS. Dual Weapon is the lowest damage but fastest striking style in the game. Archery is single target ranged DPS with additional AoE effects. The Rogue is focused more on criticals and various other effects than the other classes.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 19 novembre 2010 - 02:19 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Xewaka wrote...

Were we speaking of actual, pen and paper roleplaying, I'd agree with that statement (I hardly, if ever, actually play a main combat character. I tend to play support and utility characters). However, on videogame RPGs, combat is by far the most important aspect of the game. Yes, I know there's diplomacy and talking on vgRPG; however most videogames tie the diplomacy aspect to abilities external to class (thus all classes have the same value when on diplomacy situations).

Combat is indeed the most important aspect of almost all computer RPGs, I agree. Still, I maintain that there's a difference between being less effective at something and being totally unable to do something. I can do without a warrior, I can do without a mage, but I cannot do without a rogue since other classes do zero damage to locks. Rogues can at least kill stuff.

[nightcobra]

 All Archery talents have been redone. Additionally, all general Rogue talents are usable with either dual weapons or a bow.

The Rogue class is the most focused on speed and mobility and they have a number of other ways to move around the battlefield as well.

Strength - Warrior primary. Increases impact resistance (less likely to be knocked down by big blows).
Dexterity - Rogue primary. Increases critical hit chance.
Magic - Mage primary. Increases magic resistance.
Cunning - Increases defense.
Willpower - Increases mana/stamina.
Constitution - Increases health.


ps: we also know that lockpick skill is dependant on cunning allowing you to make a rogue build that specializes on not getting hit, or you can make a dexterity build filled with critical hits, or a common ground between the two.
a warrior or a mage don't have much use for cunning besides defense (for evading, not tanking) but the what type of character build you want is up to you.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 19 novembre 2010 - 02:38 .