197 réponses à ce sujet

[nightcobra]

 
Q:On the dual-wielding warrior thing, that's who I was in Origins, and I really dug it. With DA2, is it conceivable that I could build a Rogue that functions in a similar way. i.e. Heavy focus on close quarters combat, with reasonable defense so you can get right in there and hack away?



A:Yes, you can focus a Rogue more on being able to stand toe to toe with people, but he will be unlikely to take as much damage as a Warrior, since the Warrior's abilities are geared towards it. Also, since he doesn't have the AoE damage and effects that a Warrior does, it'll be easier to get overwhelmed by numbers. This is where the Rogue's mobility and the effects of some of his other abilities come in to play and can help maintain battlefield advantage.

[Xewaka]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Combat is indeed the most important aspect of almost all computer RPGs, I agree. Still, I maintain that there's a difference between being less effective at something and being totally unable to do something. I can do without a warrior, I can do without a mage, but I cannot do without a rogue since other classes do zero damage to locks. Rogues can at least kill stuff.

I disagree with the bolded part. Fact is, an all-rogue party (apart from impossible to make due to the game's nature) will not withstand prolonged combat without a damage soaker or a healer.

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Combat is indeed the most important aspect of almost all computer RPGs, I agree. Still, I maintain that there's a difference between being less effective at something and being totally unable to do something. I can do without a warrior, I can do without a mage, but I cannot do without a rogue since other classes do zero damage to locks. Rogues can at least kill stuff.

I disagree with the bolded part. Fact is, an all-rogue party (apart from impossible to make due to the game's nature) will not withstand prolonged combat without a damage soaker or a healer.

i tried it once, not too difficult to say the truth. i was controlling a dual wielding rogue with zevran and leliana as archers. basically my party didn't need much healing or tanking due to my high dex builds which got them evading pratically anything.

[Ziggeh]

Aermas wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

The quests are to do with those the game makes available, so aren't really the same point, and the chests issue is solved by simply having a rogue companion.

If you bring companions into this than you invalidate your argument about single player RPGs

& brings back my other point of the game forcing a companion on you.

I had an arugment about single player rpgs? That wouldn't make a lot of sense, because it's not a single player rpg and the fact that it isn't is utterly critical to this conversation.

And yes, they are forcing a companion on you, that's the point of the utlilty!

[Ortaya Alevli]

Xewaka wrote...

I disagree with the bolded part. Fact is, an all-rogue party (apart from impossible to make due to the game's nature) will not withstand prolonged combat without a damage soaker or a healer.

In theory. Can you point me to one single battle that cannot be won without a tank or healer?

I can solo the game on Nightmare with a rogue, for example. Completing all quests and looting everything possible along the way.

[Xewaka]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

In theory. Can you point me to one single battle that cannot be won without a tank or healer?

I can solo the game on Nightmare with a rogue, for example. Completing all quests and looting everything possible along the way.

I went full tank'n'spank during both my playtroughs, so I can't recall a specific "unwinnable" scenario right now.

However, I would like to point out that Mages and Warriors are not completely useless outside battle: There's Herbalism, Survival, Coercion and in Awakenings, Runecrafting. So the argument that they can do zilch outside battle is not entirely valid.

Modifié par Xewaka, 19 novembre 2010 - 03:46 .

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

In theory. Can you point me to one single battle that cannot be won without a tank or healer?

I can solo the game on Nightmare with a rogue, for example. Completing all quests and looting everything possible along the way.

I went full tank'n'spank during both my playtroughs, so I can't recall a specific "unwinnable" scenario right now.

However, I would like to point out that Mages and Warriors are not completely useless outside battle: There's Herbalism, Survival, Coercion and in Awakenings, Runecrafting. So the argument that they can do zilch outside battle is not entirely valid.

those are also available to the rogue, it's not a thing that is exclusive to either warriors or mages.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 19 novembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Ziggeh]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

I disagree with the bolded part. Fact is, an all-rogue party (apart from impossible to make due to the game's nature) will not withstand prolonged combat without a damage soaker or a healer.

In theory. Can you point me to one single battle that cannot be won without a tank or healer?

I can solo the game on Nightmare with a rogue, for example. Completing all quests and looting everything possible along the way.

Again, party based game. I don't think designing it around soloing, even if it's a common practice is a good use of their time.

[Xewaka]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

those are also available to the rogue, it's not a thing that is exclusive to either warriors or mages.

Mages have exclusive healing. Warriors have exclusive aggro management and damage mitigation skills. Rogues have exclusive extra non-combat utility. But all three can dish damage, and all three have available some non-combat skills.
I mantain that, for mages and warriors to be given more extra out-of-combat utility, rogues should get more combat utility. And if you count evasion as a second combat role, you should count crowd control in mages and aggro management in Warrior, so mages and warriors still have a 3 to 2 ratio compared to rogues in combat utility.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Xewaka wrote...

I went full tank'n'spank during both my playtroughs, so I can't recall a specific "unwinnable" scenario right now.

However, I would like to point out that Mages and Warriors are not completely useless outside battle: There's Herbalism, Survival, Coercion and in Awakenings, Runecrafting. So the argument that they can do zilch outside battle is not entirely valid.

Yes, any class can win any fight on any difficulty. I was just trying to point out that rogues can handle combat situations, as opposed to other classes being incapable of handling locks and traps.

Those skills you mentioned aren't class-specific, by the way. They are mundane tasks, yes, but character class has nothing to do with them.

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Again, party based game. I don't think designing it around soloing, even if it's a common practice is a good use of their time.

Agreed. Not suggesting otherwise. Stated earlier anyways.

Again, I'm not a fan of versatility myself. I'd prefer specialization. I'm simply pointing out the lack of balance, not suggesting it to be "fixed".

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

those are also available to the rogue, it's not a thing that is exclusive to either warriors or mages.

Mages have exclusive healing. Warriors have exclusive aggro management and damage mitigation skills. Rogues have exclusive extra non-combat utility. But all three can dish damage, and all three have available some non-combat skills.
I mantain that, for mages and warriors to be given more extra out-of-combat utility, rogues should get more combat utility. And if you count evasion as a second combat role, you should count crowd control in mages and aggro management in Warrior, so mages and warriors still have a 3 to 2 ratio compared to rogues in combat utility.

inherently in combat there's always a way to create a certain build that you want based on the stats,skills and talents you've put in the characters, in origins and awakenings all 3 classes could tank, maintain aggro , heal and etc if they had a build for it, now lockpicking doesn't come into this equation because the rogue is the only class able to have it no matter what kind of build your mage/warrior has.

all in all,in combat you can pretty much create any type of archetype provided that you know where to allocate the stat/skill/talent points, as far as talents such as lockpicking go that is not the case and in my opinion that should be rectified by either giving exclusive non-combat talents for both warriors and mages or by making all the non-combat talents available to all classes.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 19 novembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[Xewaka]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

inherently in combat there's always a way to create a certain build that you want based on the stats,skills and talents you've put in the characters, in origins and awakenings all 3 classes could tank, maintain aggro , heal and etc

Please point me to a single non-mage healing ability. For the purposes of this experiment, Poultices don't count.

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

inherently in combat there's always a way to create a certain build that you want based on the stats,skills and talents you've put in the characters, in origins and awakenings all 3 classes could tank, maintain aggro , heal and etc

Please point me to a single non-mage healing ability. For the purposes of this experiment, Poultices don't count.

second wind, sorry that's for stamina.

but for me poultices are part of it too and they do count to me at least.

i'm saying this because on one of my playthroughs my healer was a rogue using poultices and it was pretty efficient in it's job. never did run out of poultices too (and no i didn't buy them, my rogue only used the ones i found as loot).

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 19 novembre 2010 - 04:30 .

[nightcobra]

actually that gave me an idea, how about keys that you can buy to open locks?
different tier keys, one for each difficulty of lock.

good for the moments where the main warrior/mage character is separated from the group and there are locked doors and treasure chests in the area, or in the situation of when you don't have or don't want rogues in the party. pretty much how poultices relate to healing magic.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 19 novembre 2010 - 04:46 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Rogue's aren't changing that much from their Origins form in DA2... Their lockpicking skill is just one of their defining traits and it makes them much more attractive as a choice of companion or player character when otherwise a Warrior and Mage can do almost everything the Rogue can do - but better. This isn't a multiplayer game that requires delicate balancing anyway, it just seems to me like a lot of Warrior players don't like missing loot? As a member of the Rogue union I don't like getting squashed into a fine paste by various beasties and not getting to wear cool armor with my normal build.



That last one might be invalidated by DA2 but it counts if you prefer the heavier armors regardless.

[Wulfram]

If rogues need lockpicking to be picked for the party, then they suck

[Ortaya Alevli]

Wulfram wrote...

If rogues need lockpicking to be picked for the party, then they suck

I'm not sure I follow.

[nightcobra]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Rogue's aren't changing that much from their Origins form in DA2... Their lockpicking skill is just one of their defining traits and it makes them much more attractive as a choice of companion or player character when otherwise a Warrior and Mage can do almost everything the Rogue can do - but better. This isn't a multiplayer game that requires delicate balancing anyway, it just seems to me like a lot of Warrior players don't like missing loot? As a member of the Rogue union I don't like getting squashed into a fine paste by various beasties and not getting to wear cool armor with my normal build.

That last one might be invalidated by DA2 but it counts if you prefer the heavier armors regardless.

as a good rogue, you only get squashed if the enemy hits you:wizard:.  

as for cool armors, take it up with the artists, maybe they'll do a better job in da2.
and as a member of the warrior order, yes i love to loot and no i don't want to miss a good item because i didn't choose to be a rogue or if my party doesn't have a rogue at that given time.
lockpicking shouldn't be a freepass card into the party for the rogue. if i want a rogue, it's because he/she can disarm traps, kill in a fast manner, killing magic resistant enemies from afar and other combat related abilities 

[Wulfram]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I'm not sure I follow.

Rogues should be useful enough that you pick them for your party because you actually want them, not because you need to be bribed with XP and loot to take them.

[Xewaka]

Wulfram wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I'm not sure I follow.

Rogues should be useful enough that you pick them for your party because you actually want them, not because you need to be bribed with XP and loot to take them.

Let's see. Do I want extra loot and XP? Yes. Does having a rogue in the party allow that? Yes. Therefore, are rogues useful enough to want them in the party? I'd say so.

Yes, I'm just circling your argument around. But I hope it carries the point across: Non-combat utility is what make the rogues earn their spot, because that's the unique ability they can contribute to a party. This is a bit of a tautology, I know. But if rogues didn't have access to unique abilities, they'd just be squishier warriors.

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I'm not sure I follow.

Rogues should be useful enough that you pick them for your party because you actually want them, not because you need to be bribed with XP and loot to take them.

Let's see. Do I want extra loot and XP? Yes. Does having a rogue in the party allow that? Yes. Therefore, are rogues useful enough to want them in the party? I'd say so.

Yes, I'm just circling your argument around. But I hope it carries the point across: Non-combat utility is what make the rogues earn their spot, because that's the unique ability they can contribute to a party. This is a bit of a tautology, I know. But if rogues didn't have access to unique abilities, they'd just be squishier warriors.

i disagree on the point that if rogues don't have the exclusivity of lockpicking they'll just be squishier warriors.
rogues to me are fighters that rely on speed rather than strength like warriors do, they're able to change between melee and ranged combat effortlessly, they're able to disarm traps, they're able to kill a single target faster than a warrior making the rogue an excellent choice against a boss character. lockpicking as of now feels like a crutch and a way for the player to always pick a rogue party member at all times when we could make other party combinations without the penalty of backtracking through a dungeon you already cleared just to open the damned locked chests.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 19 novembre 2010 - 06:26 .

[Xewaka]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

i disagree on the point that if rogues don't have the exclusivity of lockpicking they'll just be squishier warriors.
rogues to me are fighters that rely on speed rather than strength like warriors do, they're able to change between melee and ranged combat effortlessly, they're able to disarm traps, they're able to kill a single target faster than a warrior making the rogue an excellent choice against a boss character. lockpicking as of now feels like a crutch and a way for the player to always pick a rogue party member at all times when we could make other party combinations without the penalty of backtracking through a dungeon you already cleared just to open the damned locked chests.

Well, I was lumping trap disarming into lockpicking, as both are governed by the same skill and atribute. And I doubt they'll be able to transition from melee to archery that easily: both combat styles hit me as an "either-or", and both with about the same party utility (and archery with lowered risk, but I digress). Guess I shouldn't say "lockpicking" when I actually mean "mechanic stuff handling".

[Ortaya Alevli]

Wulfram wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I'm not sure I follow.

Rogues should be useful enough that you pick them for your party because you actually want them, not because you need to be bribed with XP and loot to take them.

Right, because RPGs are all about killing stuff. No situations or challenges other than endless slaughter.

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

i disagree on the point that if rogues don't have the exclusivity of lockpicking they'll just be squishier warriors.
rogues to me are fighters that rely on speed rather than strength like warriors do, they're able to change between melee and ranged combat effortlessly, they're able to disarm traps, they're able to kill a single target faster than a warrior making the rogue an excellent choice against a boss character. lockpicking as of now feels like a crutch and a way for the player to always pick a rogue party member at all times when we could make other party combinations without the penalty of backtracking through a dungeon you already cleared just to open the damned locked chests.

Well, I was lumping trap disarming into lockpicking, as both are governed by the same skill and atribute. And I doubt they'll be able to transition from melee to archery that easily: both combat styles hit me as an "either-or", and both with about the same party utility (and archery with lowered risk, but I digress). Guess I shouldn't say "lockpicking" when I actually mean "mechanic stuff handling".

a bit of the reason why i proposed having expensive tiered keys for the player to use on locked chests and doors.
if you don't have a rogue in the party you could always use the keys to open them. doing it would be sort of a gamble since you never know what's in the chest or behind the door and you could end up wasting your money if you're not careful.