101 réponses à ce sujet

[Halfno]

There are both male and female mages that live in secluded villages, cut off from the rest of the land. If anyone who is not a mage comes into these villages they are killed. Permission must be granted for the mages to leave these places, although anyone seeing one outside the village would just assume one had permission anyway. They tattoo their faces to allow identification, anyone bearing these tattoos are confined to mage villages.

Female mages are not allowed to learn to read or write, or do anything at all really. They can feed and dress themselves and that is about it. They are used to breed more male mages, and as such their bloodlines are traced like horse breeding stock. Females are communally raised, called simply "the female", instead of "she". When they are sixteen they are taken from the village and are hooded and cloaked, and are matched with men who desire children, which is sometimes several. When she is twenty-one, or shows signs of casting spells, she is taken from the village as if again to go breed and is instead killed and cremated.

[Maria Caliban]

Halfno wrote...
/snip/

Female mages are not allowed to learn to read or write, or do anything at all really. They can feed and dress themselves and that is about it. They are used to breed more male mages, and as such their bloodlines are traced like horse breeding stock. Females are communally raised, called simply "the female", instead of "she". When they are sixteen they are taken from the village and are hooded and cloaked, and are matched with men who desire children, which is sometimes several. When she is twenty-one, or shows signs of casting spells, she is taken from the village as if again to go breed and is instead killed and cremated.

Stuff like this is one of the reasons I'm glad Mary seems to be the one handling quanri lore.

[tmp7704]

[citation needed]

[Halfno]

tmp7704 wrote...

[citation needed]

http://tinyurl.com/2a94pk

Modifié par Halfno, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:14 .

[GodWood]

Qunari mages are like the 'Unsullied'.

Except more magey.

And more Qunari-y.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Once you realize that Qunari are essentially fantasy analogues of western perceptions of Islam, you can pretty accurately answer any given questions about them yourself.

[ErichHartmann]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Once you realize that Qunari are essentially fantasy analogues of western perceptions of Islam, you can pretty accurately answer any given questions about them yourself.

No...the Qunari don't represent one specific group, religion, or philosophy. 

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 19 novembre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Eveangaline]

There probably are qunari mage women. They get their tounges cut out like any other mage, and get made to do the jobs women have in their culture, crafters, artisans, farmers, manual labor, religios leaders.



Probably not merchants tho, hard to haggle without a tounge.

[Vylan Antagonist]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Once you realize that Qunari are essentially fantasy analogues of western perceptions of Islam, you can pretty accurately answer any given questions about them yourself.

No...the Qunari don't represent one specific group, religion, or philosophy. 

Yes, that certainly is the official answer on the subject, but come on, it's clearly their major defining influence and it's silly to pretend otherwise, all the way down to qun->qanun

To be fair though, I shouldn't have associated them with Western perceptions of Islam. They are a pretty equitable representation, actually, being more respectful of Islamic scientific accomplishments (chemistry in particular) than I would expect, and showing an acute awareness of the concept of dhimma (kabethari).

The biggest departure is the whole lack of a family unit in favor of something more like the mamluk tradition (bred warriors) and a greater perceived role for women as administrators.

But yeah, while obviously it's hardly 1:1, the Qunari are clearly most heavily influenced by medieval Islam conceptually. Physically, yeah, not so much.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Eveangaline wrote...

There probably are qunari mage women. They get their tounges cut out like any other mage, and get made to do the jobs women have in their culture, crafters, artisans, farmers, manual labor, religios leaders.

Probably not merchants tho, hard to haggle without a tounge.

Only the practitioners of 'forbidden' (haram ) magic are subject to having their tongues cut out.

[Eveangaline]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

There probably are qunari mage women. They get their tounges cut out like any other mage, and get made to do the jobs women have in their culture, crafters, artisans, farmers, manual labor, religios leaders.

Probably not merchants tho, hard to haggle without a tounge.

Only the practitioners of 'forbidden' (haram ) magic are subject to having their tongues cut out.

Wait, I thought all mages had their tounges cut out so they could never cast spells, that's what Sten said in DAO at least.

[PsychoBlonde]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Yes, that certainly is the official answer on the subject, but come on, it's clearly their major defining influence and it's silly to pretend otherwise, all the way down to qun->qanun

This is always, always, an absurd claim to make.  Take just about any two things, draw a couple of extremely general and rough parallels, and you can make this claim about ANYTHING.  Congratulations.  You are capable of pattern recognition.  Just like every other human being in the world.

There are *much* closer parallels with Plato's ideal society from The Republic.  There are also parallels with communism.  And the Persian Empire.  And the Romans.  Expansionist, oppressive societies are often alike.

[PsychoBlonde]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...
Only the practitioners of 'forbidden' (haram ) magic are subject to having their tongues cut out.

I'd like clarification from a dev on this if possible, because the interpretatation on this is shaky.  From the way Sten talks in the game, mages have their tongues cut out, period.  And keep in mind that in Qunari society ALL magic is forbidden unless the mage is under the control of a handler.  Since there's no way to know that someone IS a mage until they do some magic, both statements could be true:  any mage practicing forbidden magic (ANY magic) has their tongue cut out, and ALL mages have their tongues cut out.  I suspect that this is where the ambiguity comes from.

Quite apart from preventing the mages from communicating amongst themselves, this measure would also have the effects of: a.) making the mage dependent upon their handler, and b.) making the mage very readily identifiable if they should somehow escape.

[Vylan Antagonist]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Yes, that certainly is the official answer on the subject, but come on, it's clearly their major defining influence and it's silly to pretend otherwise, all the way down to qun->qanun

This is always, always, an absurd claim to make.  Take just about any two things, draw a couple of extremely general and rough parallels, and you can make this claim about ANYTHING.  Congratulations.  You are capable of pattern recognition.  Just like every other human being in the world.

There are *much* closer parallels with Plato's ideal society from The Republic.  There are also parallels with communism.  And the Persian Empire.  And the Romans.  Expansionist, oppressive societies are often alike.

Always always an absurd claim? Congratulations, I'm capable of basic pattern recognition? Rude much? That's some pretty brusque hyperbole. Justify your extreme arguments. Here is my justification for mine, that medieval islam was (as quoted above) clearly their major defining influence:

First of all, if we were to choose ONE standout, most defining element of the Qunari, surely it would be Qun. Their very name stems from it. It defines their behaviors and laws and it is their purpose to spread it by conquest to all other people. When they conquer these other lands, they view their new subject as 'ones in need of being taught' and they are tolerant of their pre-existing religions so long as they are moving towards true enlightenment.

Muslims, followers of the Quran (I mean, come one here), follow the teachings of the Quran in all things, just as the Qunari follow the Qun. Medieval islam's emphasis on these laws led to the entire judicial concepts of proof and contracts. They too are obligated to spread their enlightenment via conquest. Those they conquer are intended to be converted, but they too have a special term for those progressing in that direction and offer protection from persecution and legal status to these new citizens, although naturally full conversion is the ultimate goal (and the reason for the conquest in the first place).

In medieval islam, maktabs were created and children were sent there to learn in 'classes' (instead of from individual tutors, as elsewhere) from ages 6-14. As future professions became clear for these students, they were taught their necessary skills in colleges, madrasahs.

In Qunari society, Tamassrans teach the children and help them determine their ideal role. Again, note even the phonetic similarities.

Medieval islam was responsible for the development of true chemistry, including distillation and mixture, the various acids, perfumery, and even the traditional tools of alchemy like the still, retort, and alembic. They developed naphtha, plumb lines, astrolabes, sugar refinement (and confectionaries!), universities, apothecaries, algebra, and heck, even experimental science. The Qunari brought with them the dreaded cannon and technological advancement well beyond their neighbors.

Then there are the mamluks, the bred soldiers 'born to the sword'... Really, the parallels are staggering.

Yes, one major difference (the most major, in my opinion) is that the Qun is without a deity, but considering the other overwhelming parallels to Islam, that's a pretty trivial thematic tweak that better differentiates them from the followers of the Maker.

Now, since you so emphatically (and obnoxiously) declared that this is 'always always' an absurd claim, first do me the favor of showing how this is 'always always' absurd. Once you've done that, please do go ahead and show how the parallels to Plato's Republic are "*much*" closer. After such an abrasive declaration on your part, I eagerly await you backing up your claims.

Modifié par Vylan Antagonist, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:06 .

[Vylan Antagonist]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...
Only the practitioners of 'forbidden' (haram ) magic are subject to having their tongues cut out.

I'd like clarification from a dev on this if possible, because the interpretatation on this is shaky.  From the way Sten talks in the game, mages have their tongues cut out, period.  And keep in mind that in Qunari society ALL magic is forbidden unless the mage is under the control of a handler.  Since there's no way to know that someone IS a mage until they do some magic, both statements could be true:  any mage practicing forbidden magic (ANY magic) has their tongue cut out, and ALL mages have their tongues cut out.  I suspect that this is where the ambiguity comes from.

You may well be right about this. I had read otherwise in the wiki and figured it was a retcon of some sort, but now that I checked it for the citation, I see that it lacks one- Rather, there's a hyperlinked footnote, but it doesn't go anywhere. Worse, the other footnotes (which lead to a bunch of dev quotes by Mary and Dave) definitely seem to implicitly back up Sten (and you), indicating that mages operate just fine with their tongues cut out, but are less susceptible to possession by demons.

On the other hand, there was also a David quote that the Qunari are 'militant islamic borg', so yeah.... 'Always always absurd'....

[Eveangaline]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...
Only the practitioners of 'forbidden' (haram ) magic are subject to having their tongues cut out.

I'd like clarification from a dev on this if possible, because the interpretatation on this is shaky.  From the way Sten talks in the game, mages have their tongues cut out, period.  And keep in mind that in Qunari society ALL magic is forbidden unless the mage is under the control of a handler.  Since there's no way to know that someone IS a mage until they do some magic, both statements could be true:  any mage practicing forbidden magic (ANY magic) has their tongue cut out, and ALL mages have their tongues cut out.  I suspect that this is where the ambiguity comes from.

You may well be right about this. I had read otherwise in the wiki and figured it was a retcon of some sort, but now that I checked it for the citation, I see that it lacks one- Rather, there's a hyperlinked footnote, but it doesn't go anywhere. Worse, the other footnotes (which lead to a bunch of dev quotes by Mary and Dave) definitely seem to implicitly back up Sten (and you), indicating that mages operate just fine with their tongues cut out, but are less susceptible to possession by demons.

On the other hand, there was also a David quote that the Qunari are 'militant islamic borg', so yeah.... 'Always always absurd'....

He lated clarified that it wasn't culturaly islamic, but that they were slightly based on their expansion during the ages when they were taking over most of the middle east and bits of europe. And inventing the number zero.

[Stanley Woo]

Let's try and keep the insults and name-calling out of the discussion, please.



Mary said so.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Originally, the qunari had tails.

Isn't that why we used to think they were lizardmen?  Back when we only knew them as Themor (The Mysterious Other Race), we thought they were lizardmen.

That's certainly how I remember it.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Eveangaline wrote...

There probably are qunari mage women. They get their tounges cut out like any other mage, and get made to do the jobs women have in their culture, crafters, artisans, farmers, manual labor, religios leaders.

Probably not merchants tho, hard to haggle without a tounge.

Following those wiki links did lead to dev quotes about the OP (and this quote), helpfully. When a Qunari woman ends up demonstrating magic talent, she's immediately reclassified as a 'saarebas', or a dangerous thing.

http://social.biowar...84&lf=8#4398334

It doesn't sound like these living weapons are allowed to do much of anything but be used as tools. This part of their behavior is very much like WoT's Seanchan, as, I guess, is the naval superiority.

So maybe a pastiche of medieval Islam (in terms of their Sharia-like use of Qun to rule of all aspects of their life,  in terms of their overwhelming imperative to conquer and convert, as well as their treatment of subjects in conquered lands, and in terms of their relative technology), the Seanchan (in terms of their treatment of mages), and the Battletech Clans (in terms of their social structures, creches, etc).

[PsychoBlonde]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...
Now, since you so emphatically (and obnoxiously) declared that this is 'always always' an absurd claim, first do me the favor of showing how this is 'always always' absurd. Once you've done that, please do go ahead and show how the parallels to Plato's Republic are "*much*" closer. After such an abrasive declaration on your part, I eagerly await you backing up your claims.

*Every single one* of the parallels you draw are also parallels to Plato's Republic.  AND communism.  (And Fascism, actually--but I left that one out because there's a major distinction between fascism and the Qun, namely extreme nationalism, usually combined with racism.  Too bad you aren't so conscientious with your parallel-drawing, since you consider the abject worship of and demand to sumbit to a deity as a MINOR difference.)  Would-be social reformers and utopianists usually start out by separating children from their parents and educating them.  Robespierre was advocating this before the French Revolution.  If you read The Lunar Men you can find out about their (somewhat bizarre) attempt to actually educate two girls by Robespierre's principles.  Or you can just read Robespierre's writings directly.

People who knows anything about ANY social system frequently come on here and make the claim that X from the game MUST be derived from their pet social system because there are parallels.  This simply means that they need to do more reading.  Unless you have magical mind-reading powers, I'd believe the devs know far better than any would-be commentator what their ideas are derived from.

Mr. Gaider later said (REPEATEDLY) that he considered "Islamic" to be a poor parallel for the Qunari because it only shares one major common trait with their system: expansionism.  Buddhism (although generally not as expansionist) has a lot more philosophical commonality with their beliefs.  (Personally I'm not sure about this, but I don't know much about Buddhism myself--there are numerous different flavors and from what I've seen they tend to be more individual-focused than society-focused--more concerned with metaphysics and ethics than politics.)

But it is disrespectful in the extreme to go around telling people that YOU think YOU know better what was going on inside their own heads than THEY do.

[Vylan Antagonist]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

*Every single one* of the parallels you draw are also parallels to Plato's Republic.  AND communism.

Again, back that up. It's simply untrue. Demonstrate how *every single one* of my parallels (including chemistry/technological superiority, religious conversion and dhimmi status, etc) are also paralled in Plato's republic and communism. Then, once you've done that, show me how  Plato's Republic is *much* closer to a people whose major defining feature is their devotion to their religion and their drive to spread it to all?

Maybe you should just slowly back away from the asterisks, since they just induce you into hyperbole you can't possibly substantiate.

People who knows anything about ANY social system frequently come on here and make the claim that X from the game MUST be derived from their pet social system because there are parallels. 

People who know 'anything about ANY social system'? Seriously?

Mr. Gaider later said (REPEATEDLY) that he considered "Islamic" to be a poor parallel for the Qunari because it only shares one major common trait with their system: expansionism.

Welp, then he's mistaken, because they do, as written, share more traits than that, most notably sharia vs. Qun. If we are talking about medieval Islam (and I was) that also includes technology and learning. Ooh, boy, I can't wait for the blast of raging hyperbole that bit of developer blasphemy on my part will surely provoke from you.

And IIRC, he also chose the name Morrigan completely randomly. Well, I believe him, but the arbitrary nature of his choice doesn't change the thematic resonance of the name. It may not have been intentional, but it's there. Call it serendipity. *shrug*

  Buddhism (although generally not as expansionist) has a lot more philosophical commonality with their beliefs.  (Personally I'm not sure about this, but I don't know much about Buddhism myself--there are numerous different flavors and from what I've seen they tend to be more individual-focused than society-focused--more concerned with metaphysics and ethics than politics.)

Eh, I'd say Confucianism much more than Buddhism. I mean, Buddha walked out on his life and responsibilities to go sit under a tree. That wouldn't sit well with the Qunari. Besides, Buddhism is far too self-focused (avoid attachments, seek enlightenment, empty your mind) for the ruthlessly pragmatic and almost hive-mind Qunari society. That's setting aside the first precept of never taking lives. No, if you want to break down the actual religious precepts of Qun itself, it's probably most akin to Confucianism and serves a pretty similar purpose of exalting the society over the self and stressing adherence to authority.

[Ympulse]

Vylan, this point has been argued and disproven multiple times on these forums.



Stop using Dragon Age to serve as a proxy for your religious argument.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Ympulse wrote...

Vylan, this point has been argued and disproven multiple times on these forums.

Oh, well, in that case, just link me to the previous threads that establish definitively that (intentionally or not) all of those parallels I pointed out above are actually not valid comparisons?

Stop using Dragon Age to serve as a proxy for your religious argument.

That's a pretty big assumption you just made. You know what they say about assumptions, Ympulse? If not, you should look it up, because you just lived it. I'm not a muslim. Most of what I know about them, I learned from the web. I'm not even remotely religious. Doh! Here's a nappy to wipe all that egg off your face.

[Maria Caliban]

I tend to agree with Vylan that the qunari resemble medieval Islam in a number of ways, perhaps more so than other, similar groups. I wouldn't go so far as to say that if there's an aspect of the qunari I'm unsure about, I would simply look at what Islamic communities do.

That is hyperbole.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Originally, the qunari had tails.

Isn't that why we used to think they were lizardmen?  Back when we only knew them as Themor (The Mysterious Other Race), we thought they were lizardmen.

That's certainly how I remember it.

Indeed! I am still interested in qunari as a PC race in a future BioWare game.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:32 .

[Eveangaline]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Ympulse wrote...

Vylan, this point has been argued and disproven multiple times on these forums.

Oh, well, in that case, just link me to the previous threads that establish definitively that (intentionally or not) all of those parallels I pointed out above are actually not valid comparisons?

Stop using Dragon Age to serve as a proxy for your religious argument.

That's a pretty big assumption you just made. You know what they say about assumptions, Ympulse? If not, you should look it up, because you just lived it. I'm not a muslim. Most of what I know about them, I learned from the web. I'm not even remotely religious. Doh! Here's a nappy to wipe all that egg off your face.

I'm pretty sure no one thought you were muslim. And not really surprised that what you know about them you learned from the web.