101 réponses à ce sujet

[silentassassin264]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's try and keep the insults and name-calling out of the discussion, please.

Mary said so.

Oooooooohh, I'm gonna tell on you!

[Vylan Antagonist]

Ympulse wrote...
Stop using Dragon Age to serve as a proxy for your religious argument.

Eveangaline wrote...

I'm pretty sure no one thought you were muslim.

Okay then. Please, enlighten me- How did you interpret his accusation that I was 'using Dragon Age' as a proxy for 'my religious argument'? Did you try?

And not really surprised that what you know about them you learned from the web.

Oh. Ouch. You know, at least when you get sliced with sharp wit, it's a clean cut. When you get bludgeoned with a dull wit, it kinda just bruises and tears.

Modifié par Vylan Antagonist, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:38 .

[Mary Kirby]

Note to all parties: Keep this thread about Qunari. If you want to have a personal argument, take it to PMs. Thank you.

[MortalEngines]

[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...
Once you realize that Qunari are essentially fantasy analogues of western perceptions of Islam, you can pretty accurately answer any given questions about them yourself. [/quote]
[/quote]

Oh great, my religion is mentioned up in a topic about Qunari, can't say I'm very surprised (I've had this discussion on another forum before <_<).

Like someone said Qunari don't represent one specific group, religion, or philosophy.  

[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...

First of all, if we were to choose ONE standout, most defining element of the Qunari, surely it would be Qun. Their very name stems from it. It defines their behaviors and laws and it is their purpose to spread it by conquest to all other people. When they conquer these other lands, they view their new subject as 'ones in need of being taught' and they are tolerant of their pre-existing religions so long as they are moving towards true enlightenment.

[/quote]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, The Qun and Quran sound similar.

I assume you're referring to Jihad (basically means you should try and convert people to islam to the best of your abilities), but Islam is not the only religion to believe such things (Mormonism is the same) and Muslims DO NOT believe that violence should be used for conversion despite what Muslim extremist do.

[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...
Medieval islam's emphasis on these laws led to the entire judicial concepts of proof and contracts. They too are obligated to spread their enlightenment via conquest.
[/quote]

I can't see how this is any different from christian Crusaders who did the same thing and missionary who do the same thing to this day (albeit without the conquering part).

[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...
In medieval islam, maktabs were created and children were sent there to learn in 'classes' (instead of from individual tutors, as elsewhere) from ages 6-14. As future professions became clear for these students, they were taught their necessary skills in colleges, madrasahs.
[/quote]

Maktabs were a form of public education, believe it or not but most people couldn't afford a personal tutor, if you could afford one, you were free to teach yourself from that. You weren't FORCED to attend Maktab. And teaching people for future professions is no different from what goes on everyday in the modern word, you find a career that suits you and you train for it.

[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...
Medieval islam was responsible for the development of true chemistry, including distillation and mixture, the various acids, perfumery, and even the traditional tools of alchemy like the still, retort, and alembic. They developed naphtha, plumb lines, astrolabes, sugar refinement (and confectionaries!), universities, apothecaries, algebra, and heck, even experimental science. The Qunari brought with them the dreaded cannon and technological advancement well beyond their neighbors.
[/quote]

How can you compare purely academic progress to purely military progress, they're two different things, following that I guess the Romans must be linked to Qunari for their advance warfare. 

[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...
Welp, then he's mistaken, because they do, as written, share more traits than that, most notably sharia vs. Qun. If we are talking about medieval Islam (and I was) that also includes technology and learning. Ooh, boy, I can't wait for the blast of raging hyperbole that bit of developer blasphemy on my part will surely provoke from you
[/quote]

Don't bring Sharia into the debate, since its a sacred law that is completely open to interpretation it can't be defined solidly and thus isn't really much evidence. Shi'a, Sunni, Salafi all view Sharia different, however Qunari ALL see the Qun the same way, there is no interpretation.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[Stanley Woo]

Let's keep this discussion about Dragon Age 2, please.

[Vylan Antagonist]

[quote]MortalEngines wrote...

[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...
Once you realize that Qunari are essentially fantasy analogues of western perceptions of Islam, you can pretty accurately answer any given questions about them yourself.
[/quote]

Oh great, my religion is mentioned up in a topic about Qunari, can't say I'm very surprised (I've had this discussion on another forum before <_<).

Like someone said Qunari don't represent one specific group, religion, or philosophy.  [/quote]

Okay, I get that they aren't a direct representation of any one real life entity. I agree with that. I also shouldn't have compared them to western perceptions of Islam;; They are actually a more faithful and enlightened parallel than that statement implies.

Really, I was arguing that they seem to be the most similar to Medieval Islam and that, working from that similarity as a base, you can probably safely infer some other basic things about them.

But the point is well taken that they are really more of a pastiche. However, when people tried to respond by saying 'Nuh Uh, that's the most most most ridiculous thing ever', well, c'mon. Pastiche or not, there are still some pretty heavy parallels.

[quote]
[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...

First of all, if we were to choose ONE standout, most defining element of the Qunari, surely it would be Qun. Their very name stems from it. It defines their behaviors and laws and it is their purpose to spread it by conquest to all other people. When they conquer these other lands, they view their new subject as 'ones in need of being taught' and they are tolerant of their pre-existing religions so long as they are moving towards true enlightenment.

[/quote]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, The Qun and Quran sound similar.

I assume you're referring to Jihad (basically means you should try and convert people to islam to the best of your abilities), but Islam is not the only religion to believe such things (Mormonism is the same) and Muslims DO NOT believe that violence should be used for conversion despite what Muslim extremist do.[/quote]

I'm talking Medieval Islam here. Saladin in particular. He was a pretty benevolent conquerer in many respects, very respectful to other holy men, but yeah, he was still spreading Islam by the sword. Just like the Qunari. And here's a major distinguishing point that I think reinforces why Islam is a more specifically accurate comparison than any other civilization spreading their religion by the sword- Those who didn't immediately convert were allowed to continue to work as long as they showed subservience (this has been interpreted a LOT of different ways) and had a special title for their status. In fact, even those who held to other religions (while still showing that subservience to sharia/Qun) were tolerated. This is practically unique among religiously motivated conquering nations. Well, except for the Qunari, who also have a special term for those new citizens and who also will continue to permit them their religions as long as they show subservience (in work camps, but still).

[quote]
[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...
In medieval islam, maktabs were created and children were sent there to learn in 'classes' (instead of from individual tutors, as elsewhere) from ages 6-14. As future professions became clear for these students, they were taught their necessary skills in colleges, madrasahs.
[/quote]

Maktabs were a form of public education, believe it or not but most people couldn't afford a personal tutor, if you could afford one, you were free to teach yourself from that. You weren't FORCED to attend Maktab. And teaching people for future professions is no different from what goes on everyday in the modern word, you find a career that suits you and you train for it.[/quote]

But it WAS unique in the medieval world. Muslims invented universities (madrasahs). And again, the phonetic similarity (while probably completely unintentional) is interesting.

[quote]
[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...
Medieval islam was responsible for the development of true chemistry, including distillation and mixture, the various acids, perfumery, and even the traditional tools of alchemy like the still, retort, and alembic. They developed naphtha, plumb lines, astrolabes, sugar refinement (and confectionaries!), universities, apothecaries, algebra, and heck, even experimental science. The Qunari brought with them the dreaded cannon and technological advancement well beyond their neighbors.
[/quote]

How can you compare purely academic progress to purely military progress, they're two different things, following that I guess the Romans must be linked to Qunari for their advance warfare. 
[/quote][/quote]

Well, incredibly advanced chemistry  (and their development of the modern formula for gunpowder) does have a bit of an analog to the uniquely cannon-using Qunari, doesn't it? By itself, absolutely, it's hardly unique. Taken in conjunction with the other similarities? Kinda interesting.

I don't mean anything untoward by suggesting the parallel, although I did come across as pretty diffident when I first posted on the subject. But it does seem like the strongest parallel to a technologically advanced religiously structured race of conversion by conquest people, doesn't it?

And sometimes drawing those connections is a positive thing creatively. The authors have a habit of referencing their characters by popular existing ones (usually Whedon creations). For Zevran, it was Spike, for Alistair, it was Xander. There have been several more. The point isn't that those characters are the 'sole representation' of their Buffyverse alts, nor would it be nice for Psycho Blonde to tell them 'Gee, you can draw basic parallels, congratulations on having brain function'. It's a handy and illustrative reference point, not an identity in and of itself.

And I think that's interesting to consider moving into DA2. I think there will be ample opportunity to flesh them out, which will move them farther and farther away from those existing parallels. I look forward to it!

Modifié par Vylan Antagonist, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:03 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Those who didn't immediately convert were allowed to continue to work as long as they showed subservience (this has been interpreted a LOT of different ways) and had a special title for their status. In fact, even those who held to other religions (while still showing that subservience to sharia/Qun) were tolerated. This is practically unique among religiously motivated conquering nations. Well, except for the Qunari, who also have a special term for those new citizens and who also will continue to permit them their religions as long as they show subservience (in work camps, but still).

This bears little to no resemblance to the information the game has given us.  People conquered by the qunari are NOT "permitted"to continue to work if they refuse to formally convert.  They are sent to prison camps and FORCED to work--from at least some reports, to the point of exhaustion and even death.

The "special status" given some converts is a result of the areas that were actually liberated from Qunari rule but haven't entirely repudiated the Qun (e.g. Rivain).  These people are quasi-tolerated to the point that the Qunari will trade with them (and have, sort of, had diplomatic relations with them), but they're not actually living under Qunari rule.

People who have only recently converted to the Qun also have a "special status" in that the Qunari are slightly more tolerant of them continuing to do silly things like believe in a deity.  As far as the Qunari are concerned, they're like children, and they'll grow out of it.

But foreigners who are determined to retain their foreign beliefs are not tolerated no matter how much subserviance they show.  (Actually, the Qunari would probably find such subserviance disgusting beyond belief--if you believe something, you should be willing to stand up for it, not crawl like a cowardly little worm--and not be willing to allow it in their society on any terms).

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:37 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

But it WAS unique in the medieval world. Muslims invented universities (madrasahs). And again, the phonetic similarity (while probably completely unintentional) is interesting.

No it was not "unique", and they certainly didn't invent the idea of an academy for higher learning.  Read this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia....iki/University  There were a number of universities in Europe in the medival world.  And the Platonic Academy (founded by Plato in 387 B.C.--you know nine hundred years before Islam even existed) is often referred to as the "University of Athens".

It's one thing to draw sketchy parallels, it's another to base them on misinformation.  The Qunari are not BASED ON Islam.  Their social system may bear several cosmetic similarities to Islam.  That's as far as it goes.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:45 .

[Vylan Antagonist]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

But it WAS unique in the medieval world. Muslims invented universities (madrasahs). And again, the phonetic similarity (while probably completely unintentional) is interesting.

No it was not "unique", and they certainly didn't invent the idea of an academy for higher learning. 

Maktabs were unique at that time, which were the antecedent of the pronoun in that first sentence.

Apparently there are differences of opinion on Wikipedia regarding whether or not Madrasahs qualified as the first true universities, so I'll withdraw that assertion; Madrasahs came along prior to the European equivalent, but apparently its a topic of contention (depending on which article I read there) as to whether or not they are Universities because they lacked a degree system.

On the other hand, in the 'History of Education' article, the Ottoman system of 'Kulliye' was apparently the first complex to contain a hospital, madrassa, public kitchen, and dining area, making education available to the entire public through free meals, healthcare, and accomodation.

And again, in conjunction with the primary defining characteristic of the Qunari, the conquest and conversion to their all-pervasive religion, it's pretty distinctive.

In a given room, 4 people might have brown hair. 2 of those brunettes might be male. Only 1 might have a moustache. Individually, none of those traits are necessarily distinctive, but in conjunction?

 The Qunari are not BASED ON Islam.  Their social system may bear several cosmetic similarities to Islam.  That's as far as it goes.

I think cosmetic is a trivialization of some pretty fundamental parallels, but clearly your mind is made up.

While you are wikipedia surfing, look up Forced Conversions. You should notice a pretty singular trend there, not that it matters.

I do think DA2 will provide even more opportunity for the Qunari to continue to evolve in their own unique way, just as Alistair and Zevran did well beyond the initial bare-bones conception.

And already the art change has fueled a pretty significant schism, defining some major morphological differences among the Qunari.

Modifié par Vylan Antagonist, 19 novembre 2010 - 10:17 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

While you are wikipedia surfing, look up Forced Conversions. You should notice a pretty singular trend there, not that it matters.

I don't have to, I remember my history fairly well (and not just the drivel I picked up in high school that passes for education these days).

But, in case my main point got lost, it's not illegitimate to say "there are parallels here".  Of course there are.  Just about every crazy idea possible has been tried somewhere in just about any kind of flavor.  There will always be parallels.  You can't be creative in a vacuum.  But claiming that something or other is definitely based on this or that is always absurd--because you can't know that short of mind reading.

Well--you can if it's an allegorical similarity as opposed to simply metaphorical similarity, but allegories are pretty rare.  (Animal Farm is allegory, for instance.)  But the defining characteristic of allegory is that there is a direct 1-to-1 parallel for EVERYTHING.  You could write a metaphorical work about communism that would only parallel the Red Revolution in general terms.  Or you can write an allegory (Animal Farm) with a *direct* parallel for Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, the working class, etc. who all suffer exactly the same fate as those individuals and so forth.

Heck, even your university parallel falls short because the Qunari only educate their kids untl they're 12--they are then assigned to their "job".  Most people don't attend university until they're at least 16.  And there hasn't been any evidence so far that the kids live in special complexes with a hospital, school, etc.  (Putting certain buildings together in a single complex is hardly a major intellectual achievement--might as well go around stressing how the Greeks "invented" the Forum.  What's important about the idea of a "university" is not the particular arrangement of buildings but the intellectual organization and the educational purpose--and both of those have been around far longer than Islam.)  IIRC we know absolutely nothing about the Qunari's living arrangements apart from the fact that mages are "kept in pens".  They may live in barracks with hundreds of others who have the same job.  Or they may live in individual houses/apartments.  Or some combination/range between the two.

This is the sort of thing that always happens.  The more you drill down into the supposed "parallels", the less and less parallel they seem.  That's because 98% of creativity is found in fine details and applications, not in the broad sweeping generalizations.

If you want to generalize enough, you can say that there are only two fundamental plots in the world:  The Iliad, and the Odyssey.  Or, you can say that every game Bioware has ever made has essentially the same plot.  (Save the country/world/galaxy from EVUL!!!!!)  But that ignores important distinctions.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 19 novembre 2010 - 11:25 .

[Vylan Antagonist]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

While you are wikipedia surfing, look up Forced Conversions. You should notice a pretty singular trend there, not that it matters.

I don't have to, I remember my history fairly well (and not just the drivel I picked up in high school that passes for education these days).

 Well, okay then. I've duly noted that you consider high schools to be drivel these days and that you feel wikipedia no longer has anything to offer. It's probably just a refresher for you then,  but here's the part I'd hoped you might notice:

Wikipedia, lowly plebian resource that it may be, noted:

A form of forced conversion became institutionalized during the Ottoman Empire in the practice of devşirme, a human levy in which Christian boys were seized and collected from their families (usually in the Balkans), enslaved, converted to Islam, and then trained for high ranking service.

But anyways...

But claiming that something or other is definitely based on this or that is always absurd--because you can't know that short of mind reading.

I think my initial statement (which I've backed off of a bit) was actually:

Vylan opined...
Once you realize that Qunari are essentially fantasy analogues of western perceptions of Islam

Now, for whatever reason, you decided to post a paragraph about allegories, metaphors, and Animal Farm (I'm seeing a trend here), but I actually used the term analogue. That's not the same as claiming 'that something or other is definitely based on this or that'. It actually just means something that is similar to something else.

These kinds of similarities are handy for establishing common frames of reference. It's kinda like synchronizing watches: we can use concepts that are already well understood to help illustrate similar ones by establishing a connection.

As I noted, the authors do this pretty frequently. For example, just as David Gaider called the Qunari a kind of militant islamic borg, immediately conjuring a series of associations by doing so, he also referred to Zevran as being like Spike and Alistair akin to Xander. He wasn't saying they were 'totally directly based on' those characters, he was just using handy frames of reference to quickly express a number of concepts. It's a useful device.

And sure, you can reason your way into deciding that every comparison is meaningless, dada this, dada that, cue the last couple pages of A Clean Well Lighted Place. But they aren't meaningless or we wouldn't use them. They are a really powerful communicative tool.

Of course, not everybody has the same associations with every term. Islam, as a religion, is a really really loaded comparison that can bring in all sorts of ugly implications depending on how the reader perceives the term. It has baggage, way more than you can bring as carry-on, and I can absolutely understand that as being one of (possibly many) reasons that maybe it's best to leave that one at home.

But I would argue, and I think I can substantiate it pretty well, that the Qunari do have a lot of similarities with medieval Islam, and if I was to describe them as briefly but descriptively as possible (now), I think I'd say they were 'a race of communal Confuscist Ottoman Turks that happen to be 8 feet tall and mostly horny.'

Well--you can if it's an allegorical similarity as opposed to simply metaphorical similarity, but allegories are pretty rare.  (Animal Farm is allegory, for instance.)  But the defining characteristic of allegory is that there is a direct 1-to-1 parallel for EVERYTHING. 

 
I don't know that's there's any particularly rarity to allegories and I definitely would not give you full credit for that definition of the defining characteristic of allegory, but this is all venturing a little far afield. I used neither term.

This is the sort of thing that always happens.  The more you drill down into the supposed "parallels", the less and less parallel they seem. 

Not really? I mean, that's not the point of establishing comparisons. Why would anyone feel compelled to do this?

'No, David, really Zevran isn't at all like Spike because Spike is a vampire, not an elven assassin, and Spike has mostly a cockney accent, although it's affected and sometimes slips, while Zevran clearly has a spanish accent, I mean Antivan, and Spike really had a wounded artist's soul until he lost it by being vamped while Zevran never had remotely the kind of issue with women that he did because he...'

David:

But yeah, I think all sides are entrenched and apparently it's a really sore subject on the forums, so I regret bringing it up.

I guess this would be a bad time to mention parallels between Qun and the teachings of Zerthimon.

[Maria Caliban]

MortalEngines wrote...

Don't bring Sharia into the debate, since its a sacred law that is completely open to interpretation it can't be defined solidly and thus isn't really much evidence. Shi'a, Sunni, Salafi all view Sharia different, however Qunari ALL see the Qun the same way, there is no interpretation.

We don't know that all people who identify as qunari interpret the Qun in the same way. For all we know, the qunari of Thedas are a minority splinter group of Qun.

[Stanley Woo]

Can we please tone down the real-world religion debates and get back to the make-pretend world of Dragon Age 2?

[Lord_Valandil]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Can we please tone down the real-world religion debates and get back to the make-pretend world of Dragon Age 2?

It seems that nobody's listening, Mr. Woo.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Can we please tone down the real-world religion debates and get back to the make-pretend world of Dragon Age 2?

I don't know that it was ever a real world religion debate, honestly, just a lot of splitting hairs over whether comparisons are meaningful or not and pedantic e-peen measuring.  If it was a religion debate, I've got no skin in the game. I just saw something that looked like it had tusks, floppy ears, and a  trunk, and I didn't realize it would ruffle feathers by saying I thought it looked like an elephant.

Now I know why they call it the elephant in the room. We are supposed to pretend it isn't there.

I, for one, am glad that there doesn't seem to be that creepy S&M vibe from the leashed Qunari mages that I get from the Seanchan in Wheel of Time. Can I say that?

[PsychoBlonde]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Now, for whatever reason, you decided to post a paragraph about allegories, metaphors, and Animal Farm (I'm seeing a trend here), but I actually used the term analogue. That's not the same as claiming 'that something or other is definitely based on this or that'. It actually just means something that is similar to something else.

No, your statement with which I was arguing was that Islam was CLEARLY THE DEFINING INFLUENCE for the Qunari.  NOT that the Qunari were an ANALOG for anything.  You may have used the term "analog" in your first post, but by indicating that you ought to be able to answer any questions about them by reference to what you consider to be the source material, you were describing them as an *allegorical* reference instead of a merely analogous one.  People misuse analogies all the time.  Heck, misuse of analogy is Sten's primary means of making points in DA:O, which I found hilarious.  This is what comes of basing your society on parables instead of principles.

As I said, if you want to say, "hey, there are strong parallels here", DANDY.  I am just really, really sick of this post hoc ergo propter hoc bull**** that people always pull when they notice a couple of parallels and assume that one must be based on (or defined by) the other.  You get this same glib stupidity everywhere nowadays, and the same flippant dismissive twerps who like to appear profound by showing off their ability to slot things in categories.

I like to play the categorization game too (I'll even play it with Mr. Gaider when he's on an in an answering-questions-mood--he puts up with it surprisingly well).  But I don't go around declaring that I already know all the details because I've found a handy category for what something is like.  Way back before DA:O came out I was comparing the elves to various varieties of Jews to get an idea for how the Dalish and the City elves might regard each other--but I certainly didn't go around declaring that the Jews were the defining influence for the elves.

Now, getting back to the Qunari--can anyone tell me if this whole parables/analogies thing is common in Qunari culture?  The way Sten talked about mages in Origins was particularly interesting to me as a result of this, especially when taken in conjunction with his comments on human wisdom (I think it was that discussion, anyway, I could be mistaken).  The Qunari seem to regard mages as dangerous in some absolute or intrinsic sense instead of dangerous in particular ways under particular circumstances.  One would assume that they would know other things are just as dangerous as mages (a saboteur with a couple of kegs of gunpowder could do far more damage than any mage we've encountered in the game--it's only groups of mages working together that have caused some real nastiness, and a whole cell of terrorists with explosives would be similarly nasty).  So why don't they realize the disparity there?  Heck, Sten murders more innocent people in DA:O than my mage does.

[Maria Caliban]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

The Qunari seem to regard mages as dangerous in some absolute or intrinsic sense instead of dangerous in particular ways under particular circumstances.  One would assume that they would know other things are just as dangerous as mages (a saboteur with a couple of kegs of gunpowder could do far more damage than any mage we've encountered in the game--it's only groups of mages working together that have caused some real nastiness, and a whole cell of terrorists with explosives would be similarly nasty).  So why don't they realize the disparity there?  Heck, Sten murders more innocent people in DA:O than my mage does.

At birth, a qunari is assigned a role and that role isn't simply 'what you do' but 'who you are.' A warrior who becomes a mage has, simply by being a mage, subverted the structure of qunari society.

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

At birth, a qunari is assigned a role and that role isn't simply 'what you do' but 'who you are.' A warrior who becomes a mage has, simply by being a mage, subverted the structure of qunari society.

I thought they were assigned jobs at age 12 after being evaluated by the priests.  And generally people are revealed as mages quite young from what we've seen in the game--around age 5 or so (for Wynne anyway)  Connor seemed to be around 11 or 12.  So they wouldn't have an existing job that they'd be subverting.

It may be that mages are kept contained for some reason other than what it said on the box, sure.  It's just an interesting attitude for the qunari to have--that mages are exempt from the considerations of free will.  But from other things Sten said, I'd hazard a guess that the Qunari believe people have free will in regard to nature ("you make your world") but NOT in regard to their own consciousness--or that allowing people to direct their consciousness and make personal choices is somehow dangerous.

Since mages have, by virtue of their magic, the ability to control the world with their mind, they have a more directly powerful consciousness and have to be contained much more forcefully as a result.

[Herr Uhl]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

At birth, a qunari is assigned a role and that role isn't simply 'what you do' but 'who you are.' A warrior who becomes a mage has, simply by being a mage, subverted the structure of qunari society.

I thought they were assigned jobs at age 12 after being evaluated by the priests.

This is correct.

And generally people are revealed as mages quite young from what we've seen in the game--around age 5 or so (for Wynne anyway)  Connor seemed to be around 11 or 12.  So they wouldn't have an existing job that they'd be subverting.

I remember Gaider saying that many show their affinity around 20 too. Can't find the quote, so you'd have to take my word on this.

[Sir JK]

Herr Uhl wrote...
I remember Gaider saying that many show their affinity around 20 too. Can't find the quote, so you'd have to take my word on this.

I recall that quote too. But if I recall it correctly he said that most mages develop their powers in their lower teens, with only a few being younger (such as Connor and Wynne) and older.

[In Exile]

[quote]Sylvius the Mad wrote...

[quote]Maria Caliban wrote...

Originally, the qunari had tails.[/quote]
Isn't that why we used to think they were lizardmen?  Back when we only knew them as Themor (The Mysterious Other Race), we thought they were lizardmen.

That's certainly how I remember it.[/quote]

Indeed! I am still interested in qunari as a PC race in a future BioWare game. [/quote]

Themor and thedas brings a tear to the eye...

That being said, I would love a qunari PC. They're culture is just so phenomenally alien an interesting. This is how, IMO, a fantasy race should be build for a western audience. The human group should be in some way recognizable for us, but every other race should just be otherwordly and alien.

[Kakistos_]

To the original post, isn't the graphic to the left a female qunari?

http://dragonage.bioware.com/

[Maria Caliban]

Kakistos_ wrote...

To the original post, isn't the graphic to the left a female qunari?

http://dragonage.bioware.com/

No, that's Flemeth.

[Chokladglass]

Kakistos_ wrote...

To the original post, isn't the graphic to the left a female qunari?

http://dragonage.bioware.com/

 Flemeth disapproves.

[Bullets McDeath]

The only proper response to this question is



"Why would their women wish to be men?"



aaaaand thread. Oh, stop. You're too much. Really, I do it out love. PLEASE STOP CLAPPING.