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[jillabender]

Bhryaen, I agree that the racism portrayed in the Human Noble origin is upsetting. Nan's attitude makes me cringe every time – she clearly sees nothing wrong with treating her kitchen staff like dirt and calling them "useless elves." And the fact that no one calls her out on it suggests that the Couslands don't even recognize it as racism, because it's so normal to them. That being said, I don't have a problem with the writing, because it felt true to life, and even made me reflect a bit about how otherwise decent people can be blind to the ugliness of racism right in front of them. Personally, I like to imagine that my Cousland characters start to grow out of those attitudes once they visit the Alienage and see for themselves how most elves live.

Bhryaen wrote…

As for Wynne who seems so very unpopular in this thread, I really like her. Can she be preachy? Yeah. And she's got more Makerisms of her own despite the fact that Chantryspeak is bad for a mage's health. But she has one of the kindest voices I've ever heard, and when she starts lecturing I don't hear a calloused earbending, just a kind old woman's attempt at mothering- despite that she never has been one. So I just pick through for what's meaningful in what she says- and there’s plenty- and feel good that she's there looking out for my char. I don't have to tell her she's right about everything to have her approval, just be nice and sit back while the wizened old lady tells her tales. She's very consistent that way, appreciative of kindness, and not fickle, plus even her disapproval of relationships is something she later takes back and apologizes for- something unheard of even IRL.

I feel much the same about Wynne. She can be preachy and obnoxious at times, and her diatribe against Zevran always makes me indignant, but I just can't bring myself to dislike her – for exactly the reasons that you've articulated so well!

Bhryaen wrote…

12. Alistair […] After a full period of seemingly shy, inexperienced romantic dialogue setup, suddenly, beside a widening pool of drake blood in the cultists’ caves, he forcibly grappled my elf mage lady into a kiss and then wouldn't let her say “no” to it without dropping his approval rating by large quantities.

Out of curiosity, do you remember exactly how that played out? A few of my female characters have romanced Alistair, but I don't remember him forcing any of them into a kiss. Maybe I've been choosing different dialogue options?

Modifié par jillabender, 13 mai 2012 - 02:01 .

[Bhryaen]

[quote]Faerunner wrote...
Wait, are you talking about the brother or the father? Fergus is the older brother, Bryce is the father.[/quote]
Same difference- like father like son. hehe No, I just edited my post- definitely intended the Chief Pup for that distinction. Clearly I don't play the HN Origin much... Not sure why...


[quote]I often hear players who think of their Couslands as rich playboys use her as an example of what master seducers they were or how awesome and privileged their lives were before everything went to hell, so there you go.[/quote]
Well, isn't that special. Frankly though that just has to go up in the high Fail Ratings that someone would brag about shagging prowess that a game reduces to seduction through multiple choice questions... like they were even the one who came up with the lines, much less persuaded the pregenerated virtual scenerios to unfold. What studs... lol But I did sleep with her once- after exploring all her dialogue and genuinely looking forward to seeing her again later on in the game... only to discover in disgust that the writers had taken the easy road and just offed her during a cutscene while my character supposedly just lays in bed while there's fighting outside. I'm really liking my Cousland a lot... not. I think that might've been the last straw with the HN Origin for me.

[quote]I actually found it sickeningly hypocritical that Nan lectures the PC about being proud or mistreating those they consider below them right after being so cruel to the elves, but again, the game doesn't give you the option to call her out on it and one can assume that the hypocrisy flew right over most human player's heads. >_<[/quote]
And the way it's written it seems to be presumed to go over the character's head as well. Yes, I recall that impression- that the moral was one that directly applied to her own actions, but I had to just say, "Thanks for the learnin'," and depart like a good little clueless lad.

[quote] http://kotaku.com/51...gon-age-origins[/quote]
Thanks for that link- very informative. The line that stands out most in it would be:

[quote]Normally, say BioWare headmen Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk, high fantasy like Tolkien's dictates that elves are creatures that "sashay through the countryside" – they're very pretty, very aloof and very, very elitist.[/quote]
Now that's not exactly a direct quote, but I'm assuming it's pretty close to what they told the reporter, and if that's the way they feel about elves, it's no wonder they were so comfortable with pretty much neutering and humiliating them. "Take that, elitists!" I already found the elves in DAO significantly on the flat side before reading that short article. I'm slowly beginning to like the Dalish more, but they still seem stale and "afterthought" compared to the rest of the game content, especially the dwarves. I find I have a completely different take on elves and what Tolkien made of them than the DAO "headmen," it seems, but that's for a different discussion...

I can definitely appreciate the intention to create a more socially striking dynamic, however- or as they put it a bit less concertingly, "dark heroic fantasy:" the game actually directly engages in difficult themes like racism, sexism, rape, castes, slavery, etc., leaving the choices relatively open and directly putting it in the player's hands to resolve, ruin, or ignore. Definitely ground-breaking on that level alone. But that doesn't mean they approached it well enough, particularly since making something "dark" doesn't necessarily entail making it meaningful or qualitative. In the case of the HN Origin they kinda left out the option of playing a non-racist. Mind you, they don't really have a lot of pro-human Dalish or city elf selections either, and the Dalish opens up where you can just shoot three shems in the back. But my Dalish told Tamlen off for his suggestion to kill them, something no HN can do to Nan. I'm beginning to really like the idea of running an adopted Cousland- maybe make a black person even- and just play it like she or he has been waiting for an opportunity to get out of that milieu forever, knowing from experience how little Nan (or any other privileged fop in the castle) ever listens to protests again her racism regardless. Anyway that's about the only way I can see doing it at the moment...

[quote]Unfortunately, Bioware didn’t count on roughly 80% of all players only being human and completely missing the subtle nuances of racial tension. Most people were too busy enjoying the perpetual ego stroke of being constantly praised as the Maker’s Greatest Gift to Thedas since Andraste for just being a Cousland to notice or care about the poor and downtrodden elves within their own castles or cities. It wasn’t happening to them, they didn’t experience it firsthand, so what do they care?[/quote]
That's such a good point. They truly didn't anticipate how their audience would approach it, and given how great DAO is, I'm glad they didn't cater or water things down. I read Gaider saying elsewhere saying that if they'd known how DAO was going to be played by most players they'd have invested more in a second human Origin- and I think a poor human Origin would've been great, especially one that had humans and city elves banding together, say, in a riot or something... and since it would've been human it would've probably been played almost as much as the HN Origin. But Gaider went on to say that, while he'd have added a human Origin, he'd have left out one of the dwarf Origins, and I doubt seriously that a "human commoner" Origin would've been worth such a sacrifice of that wonderful DC Origin, particularly given how they approached the HN...

[quote][quote]Bhryaen wrote…
Ah, yes, I’ve not yet gotten my CE that far.[/quote]
Oh, sorry! I didn’t realize! >_<[/quote]
hehe- no worries. As I said, I was anticipating learning that very thing anyway, so it's not like I was in for a major surprise, and really it'll be a whole new experience regardless of any such foreknowledge... Howe did, after all, create a bloodbath of children in an orphanage...

[quote]jillabender wrote...
I feel much the same about Wynne.[/quote]
;)Someone has to appreciate Grandma!

[quote][quote]Bhryaen wrote…
12. Alistair […] After a full period of seemingly shy, inexperienced romantic dialogue setup, suddenly, beside a widening pool of drake bloodin the cultists’ caves, he forcibly grappled my elf mage lady into a kiss and then wouldn't let her say “no” to it without dropping his approval rating by large quantities. [/quote]
Out of curiosity, do you remember exactly how that played out? A few of my female characters have romanced Alistair, but I don't remember him forcing any of them into a kiss. Maybe I've been choosing different dialogue
options?[/quote]
The exact circumstances were that I'd already taken my elf mage girl through the maximum dialogue options with him and avoided the direct sexual or romantic overtures but also kept her going on the friendly, welcoming responses. At that moment I found some gift that was Alistair-specific in a crate in that cultist cave where the two drakes block one's retreat once you're in the room. Since I'd already seen one character change after getting to 75 approval (this was my first game, so a lot was new), and I knew Alistair was one good gift away from becoming 75, I gave it to him and then clicked him to see if there were any new dialogue options. It immediately went into a cutscene of him saying something like, "I've really been wanting to do this," and just executing a grappling kiss (as I see it, since he doesn't ask permission or shyly hesitate, much less confirm mutuality any other way). Then he asks something like, "That's not too soon, I hope?" Oh, now he asks... And you have IIRC these options:

1. No, really: force yourself on me whenever you please. It's fine.
2. In fact, do it again now because it was right up my alley... so to speak.
3. Yes, it was too soon.
4. Please don't do that.

Slightly paraphrased there. Options 1 and 2 get small positives while 3 and 4 get heavy negatives without a single "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be such a pushy lunkhead, gah, are you ok?" (which isn't exactly a resolution in itself, but still...) So in effect you have no choice about that kiss, and if you protest he gets seriously pissy on you. Nice guy, real sensitive and mature... I'll introduce him to my daughter... "Kiss the nice man right now or you can go to your room, you little priss." With my next girl character I had her simply not be so nice to him, but still he forced his rose into her inventory and she ultimately had to tell him she wasn't interested, resulting in numerous approval points dropped. The guy wants your body, and if he can't have it, you suffer- as does he since his special "inspired" powers can then dissipate. He's only "inspired" by lust apparently. Then again, I always tend to max everything, so I may just start to let the RP take him down in approval without trying to gift my way back out of it, particularly if he's not even among my main traveling companions- and he's now my last choice anyway.

Funny how Zevran for all his apparent promiscuity and with his rather less than benevolent predisposition nevertheless never stoops to that behavior himself. That said, I did just install the Zevran Dialogue Fix, so I suppose I may now find both of them to be pushy lunkheads when it plays out for my next girl character...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 12 mai 2012 - 07:48 .

[jillabender]

Bhryaen wrote...

… I'd already taken my elf mage girl through the maximum dialogue options with him and avoided the direct sexual or romantic overtures but also kept her going on the friendly, welcoming responses. At that moment I found some gift that was Alistair-specific in a crate in that cultist cave where the two drakes block one's retreat once you're in the room. Since I'd already seen one character change after getting to 75 approval (this was my first game, so a lot was new), and I knew Alistair was one good gift away from becoming 75, I gave it to him and then clicked him to see if there were any new dialogue options. It immediately went into a cutscene of him saying something like, "I've really been wanting to do this," and just executing a grappling kiss (as I see it, since he doesn't ask permission or shyly hesitate, much less confirm mutuality any other way). Then he asks something like, "That's not too soon, I hope?" Oh, now he asks...

That does sound pretty messed-up – I don't blame your mage girl for being pissed off! I must be doing something differently, because every time that I've played a female character, the conversation she has with Alistair at 71+ approval after receiving the rose only leads to a kiss if she explicitly tells him that she returns his feelings.

Bhyraen wrote…

Funny how Zevran for all his apparent promiscuity and with his rather less than benevolent predisposition nevertheless never stoops to that behavior himself.

Very true – Zevran, when it comes right down to it, is actually quite a gentleman in some ways, and always asks for permission before taking the relationship to the next level. My male Dalish rogue romanced Zev, and even after playing through all the possible romances, Zevran's is still my favourite.

Modifié par jillabender, 12 mai 2012 - 11:57 .

[Corker]

Bhryaen wrote...

The exact circumstances were that I'd already taken my elf mage girl through the maximum dialogue options with him and avoided the direct sexual or romantic overtures but also kept her going on the friendly, welcoming responses. At that moment I found some gift that was Alistair-specific in a crate in that cultist cave where the two drakes block one's retreat once you're in the room. Since I'd already seen one character change after getting to 75 approval (this was my first game, so a lot was new), and I knew Alistair was one good gift away from becoming 75, I gave it to him and then clicked him to see if there were any new dialogue options. It immediately went into a cutscene of him saying something like, "I've really been wanting to do this," and just executing a grappling kiss (as I see it, since he doesn't ask permission or shyly hesitate, much less confirm mutuality any other way). Then he asks something like, "That's not too soon, I hope?" Oh, now he asks...

Actually, it sounds like you accidentally picked a flirt line.  Not all of them are obvious.  None of the LIs should start something unless you've flirted with them. (Although you can do so without meaning to - hence the golden heart icon in DA2 - and Leliana in particular is known for "ninjamancing," due to some bugs in her code.)

With Alistair especially, there are some warm, friendly lines that are actually flirt lines. 

If you're on PC, the Approval bar should help you know if you've activated a romance.  If the word with your score is Neutral, Warm or Friendly, they're not 'on.'  If they show Interested, Care, Adore or Love, the romance is on.

The go to 'Adore' at 71, which is why you see them do things right around then.  They're finally smitten enough to do/say something if the PC hasn't.

[jillabender]

Corker wrote...

Actually, it sounds like you accidentally picked a flirt line.  Not all of them are obvious.  None of the LIs should start something unless you've flirted with them. (Although you can do so without meaning to - hence the golden heart icon in DA2 - and Leliana in particular is known for "ninjamancing," due to some bugs in her code.)

You're right, the romance shouldn't be activated unless the PC chose certain conversation options. I'm more surprised by the fact that Alistair forcibly kissed Bhryaen's character without there being any conversation leading up to it – in all of my playthroughs, Alistair has asked the female Warden if she returns his feelings before kissing her, even if she chose the most direct flirting responses in previous conversations.

Modifié par jillabender, 12 mai 2012 - 11:44 .

[ReallyRue]

Bhryaen wrote...

The exact circumstances were that I'd already taken my elf mage girl through the maximum dialogue options with him and avoided the direct sexual or romantic overtures but also kept her going on the friendly, welcoming responses. At that moment I found some gift that was Alistair-specific in a crate in that cultist cave where the two drakes block one's retreat once you're in the room. Since I'd already seen one character change after getting to 75 approval (this was my first game, so a lot was new), and I knew Alistair was one good gift away from becoming 75, I gave it to him and then clicked him to see if there were any new dialogue options. It immediately went into a cutscene of him saying something like, "I've really been wanting to do this," and just executing a grappling kiss (as I see it, since he doesn't ask permission or shyly hesitate, much less confirm mutuality any other way). Then he asks something like, "That's not too soon, I hope?" Oh, now he asks...

That sounds like what happed to me recently with Alistair. After being generally friendly with Alistair for a while, I click on Party Camp, and a dialogue is immediately started with Alistair, where he asks my character into his tent. That was a bit of a wtf moment, seeing as I'd just been friendly and was romancing Zevran anyway. I refused and picked the option to say she isn't interested in Alistair romantically, and was hit with a whopping -94 approval. Still didn't make it all the way up to full by the end of the game.

I did some looking around on the romance guides online, and I think I tripped up in the conversation where you confront him about not being upfront about his parentage. Apparently, when he says "I was hoping you'd like me for who I am", saying "I do like you for who who are" (paraphrased) is a romantic line. I should have picked "apology accepted" as the friendship one. How the futon was I supposed to know that? '

[jillabender]

Faerunner wrote…

You’ll also notice that Fergus is rather misogynistic, especially if you’re a female Cousland. It’s so charming how patronizing and condescending he is to his wife and sister, how he kneels down to teach his son what a wench is (instead of teaching him not to use that word), or how he laughs off his mother’s worries and teases her about being able to defeat the darkspawn with a stern talking to, and so on and so forth…

I agree – I found it irritating that Fergus continually patronizes Teyrna Eleanor, making comments to the effect of "Awww, she's a badass mama who can swing a sword with the best of 'em… ain't it cute!" The implication is that a man's fighting skill deserves respect, but a woman's fighting skill only deserves to be cooed over for how "precious" it is.

Faerunner wrote…

When it comes to elves and dwarves, there are two sides to every conflict and being a victim of injustice doesn’t make you innocent. When it comes to the human noble? The conflict was completely one-sided and there were definitely innocent victims here. The Couslands did nothing wrong and the usurper was completely evil and you’re such a poor, innocent, persecuted little lamb!

That's actually a really good point – I hadn't thought about it quite like that. As I said earlier, I actually like the subtlely with which the issues of racism and classism are handled in the Human Noble origin, but there is something that's always bothered me about the way it was done, and I think you've hit the nail on the head: when compared to how glaring the writers made the prejudices of so many other characters, especially the Dalish elves, one can't help feeling that the Couslands got off too easily. I do think that the writers intended for the Couslands to be seen as flawed characters who are blind to their own prejudices, but the fact that they die so tragically tends to make it too easy to gloss over their racism, classism and misogyny.

Bhryaen wrote…

Gaider went on to say that, while he'd have added a human Origin, he'd have left out one of the dwarf Origins, and I doubt seriously that a "human commoner" Origin would've been worth such a sacrifice of that wonderful DC Origin…

A human commoner origin would have been very interesting to see, although I agree that the game would have been much poorer without the Dwarf Commoner origin!

Modifié par jillabender, 14 mai 2012 - 04:02 .

[Fiacre]

In regards to the Couslands, I rather like the fact that their background isn't simply ignored in favour of writing them as a perfect modern family with modern values and sensibilities that just happens to be an old and powerful family in a medieval fantasy setting. Values dissonance is to be expected and thinking about it I think I'd be more bothered without it. And while they're obviously portrayed as decent people who care a lot about each other (Bryce is the kind of father I wish more people could have. If I compare his attitude towards his son with, for example, the father of my best friend...), but they have flaws as well, and it makes them more human and better written characters. I also don't think their tragic end glosses over those flaws -- every time I go through that origin I'm almost crying by the end and yet Nan's attitude still annoys the hell out of me and I still roll my eyes when Eleanor and Landra tease Iona.

On the other hand, I'm not bothered by Fergus' or Bryce' behaviour during the family meeting at all. Seems a lot like the teasing that goes in my family, and it's never done with malice. (Incidentally, I wish my parents would use a petname like pup. Much better than what I got.)

I also don't see the comparison with the other origins -- there may be two sides to the elf conflict, but Vaughan is still a monster and I don't think anyone would blame Shianni for what happened to her or say that the women aren't innocent there, whatever other flaws they may have. And personally, I wouldn't blame Tamlen and the Dalish PC for what happened to them -- they were curious about finding out more about their culture and unaware of the danger of the taint. The elf-human conflict doesn't make them any less innocent when it comes to that (ignoring the confrontation with the humans at the beginning, admittedly, since I don't see it as the focus of that origin).


Anyway! Should probably talk about characters I dislike as well...

Howe and Vaughan are a matter of course, I suppose, though Howe as a bit of a love to hate thing going on and I'm actually less strict on what happen to Vaughan than most from what I heard -- I go by what seems appropriate with the character I'm playing. One of my HNs let him out to get the vote (but also didn't really talk enough to him to hear him talk about the elves) , another one took the key and then stabbed him -- after Vaughan insulted the elves. While Zevran was standing there (and was my characters lover). Idiot. My current one is probably going to let him out for the vote while planning to arrange for a little accident to happen to him after the Landsmeet. A Dalish on the other hand would never let him out, while a DC probably wouldn't let him either and DN might.

I also really don't like the Revered Mother in Lothering. I don't know how bad the one in Redcliffe is -- I only ever talked to her for Ser Perth -- but the one in Lothering is just horrible. The one at Ostagar is pretty bad also. ("We're not trusting any more lives to you Mages!" Yeah, screw you. I wish I could have my character tell her off for being a douchebag.) Usually I don't care about minor characters like that enough to dislike them this much, but those Revered Mothers just ****** me off.

As far as companions go, sometimes Wynne and Alistair. There are times I like them, then there are times when I find them incredibly annoying. I have to get that conversation where you ask about griffons with Wynne this time around though. Usually I barely speak with her, because her conversation bore me. (I do like the one where she tries to comfort you though. It's not a very successful attempt, but at least she tries.)
And Alistair's whining is not something I usually feel like putting up with and his humour isn't something I find funny often enough for it to help him much.

[Bhryaen]

Corker wrote...
If you're on PC, the Approval bar should help you know if you've activated a romance.  If the word with your score is Neutral, Warm or Friendly, they're not 'on.'  If they show Interested, Care, Adore or Love, the romance is on.

Ah... yet more to learn about DAO... I'll have to watch for that.

The thing is, it seems to switch from the one to the other track by the arbitrary pre-arranged estimation of the writers, not a genuine dynamic directly following my choices- i.e., I didn't select for that sort of Alistair reaction, and I wasn't given a choice in that cutscene. It was simply scripted to happen that way regardless of my expectations. So it comes across forcibly both for my char and for me. I admit that I still liked Alistair at that time and did fully intend with that char to see what his romance looked like since his companion lines seemed so good at the time, and thus prior to the "incident" (hehe), I had been choosing humorous banter with him and had my char say she liked the rose, etc. But as far as I knew I'd kept it all at a talking level because I'd skirted the overtly overture lines, glad to have the option to keep it discursive and see how it went, and, as I said, he was all "nice guy shyness," so it was fun to watch. I wasn't that comfortable with playing a romance as a girl in the first place, so like her father I was watching him, and he seemed very honorable. Alas I wasn't aware that for this suitor, the magic number 71 meant an auto-grappling. (Morrigan would have a field day about "men" presuming that women are weak and think they're attractive... No wonder she hates him...)

I simply know that if, after a short while of a few warm moments and humor with a woman, I just decided for myself "it was time," grabbed her by the back of her head, and leaned her back into a kiss... when I'd let her back up there would be repercussions- even if she'd liked me. Alistair just grinned and acted like he'd just made a bold playa move. How "pimp." To be fair, what I describe as a grapple-kiss was the same grapple-kiss as if you select "(Kiss)," so it's not like it's a unique grapple. But it's a grapple- not a peck. And at that moment I was expecting only to peruse his dialogue selections. Instead it went into a cutscene where without a word on my char's part he in his heavy armor grabbed my slender mage-robed elf girl and forced her off balance... while a dead drake just to the side of him in the cutscene slowly dissolved into a huge pool of blood... so it looked pretty bad to me, yeah, and I had a talk with his parents. But it still would've been importune even if I'd not clicked him in that cave and the grapple-kiss auto-occurred upon arriving in camp later.

It's actually a very complex set of dialogue paths and variables the writers tried to weave together, and though they did a fairly excellent job of it generally (though numerous modded fixes remain necessary), I can see how the dialogue system could reasonably "misfire" in some cases where dialogue is selected by the player before the anticipated approval rating is reached, and then intended cutscenes happen a bit clunkily and heavy-handedly once the delay in reaching 71 is finally over. And I'm assuming that there is some more healthy dialogue path to take with Alistair where the grapple-kiss timing actually looks appropriate. (Just an assumption though since I won't be exploring it... unless I make a hideous creature to romance him... hmm...) However, the ultimatum tendency of Alistair isn't limited just to that one experience my char had with him, so even if it was a misfire that flirting precipitates an auto-grapple without any prior physical contact or express approval, it also looked very in-character for Alistair to be so emotionally pushy and cloddish. And really, I'm not seeing how it would've been qualitatively different if she'd already been at 71 with him during the preceding dialogues: it was still an auto-grapple, not a request on his part.

Take, for instance, the moment Duncan is telling Alistair for the first time that he'll be going to the Tower of Ishal instead of joining the main battle. Alistair gets pissy, and if you choose to tell Duncan you're ok with Cailan's decision, Alistair scowls and can drop approval once the dialogue ends. On the other hand, if you dialogue-select to agree with Alistair that you two 3-4th level chars should be on the front line, he's all jokey and raises his approval. So he's been written to have this consistent way of compelling you to do things his way through threats of pissiness- whether it's the right way or not- even at that very early stage of the game! And in the same manner he figured his grapple-kiss should just be accepted the same way. Mind you, he does ask afterward whether it was ok... but to me this means he feels it is ok to just grab a woman for a kiss prior to finding out if she feels it's ok since that way he gets his way and then afterward he can threaten pissiness if she resists. What a charmer. But, hey, that's just how he does his biatches...

Sodding pike-twirler...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 14 mai 2012 - 07:58 .

[jillabender]

Fiacre wrote...

In regards to the Couslands, I rather like the fact that their background isn't simply ignored in favour of writing them as a perfect modern family with modern values and sensibilities that just happens to be an old and powerful family in a medieval fantasy setting. Values dissonance is to be expected and thinking about it I think I'd be more bothered without it. And while they're obviously portrayed as decent people who care a lot about each other (Bryce is the kind of father I wish more people could have. If I compare his attitude towards his son with, for example, the father of my best friend...), but they have flaws as well, and it makes them more human and better written characters. I also don't think their tragic end glosses over those flaws -- every time I go through that origin I'm almost crying by the end and yet Nan's attitude still annoys the hell out of me and I still roll my eyes when Eleanor and Landra tease Iona.

I also don't see the comparison with the other origins -- there may be two sides to the elf conflict, but Vaughan is still a monster and I don't think anyone would blame Shianni for what happened to her or say that the women aren't innocent there, whatever other flaws they may have. And personally, I wouldn't blame Tamlen and the Dalish PC for what happened to them -- they were curious about finding out more about their culture and unaware of the danger of the taint. The elf-human conflict doesn't make them any less innocent when it comes to that (ignoring the confrontation with the humans at the beginning, admittedly, since I don't see it as the focus of that origin).

Actually, I agree with you on just about every point. I think I could have expressed myself better – certainly there are many characters, like Shianni and Tamlen, who did nothing to bring their suffering upon themselves, and I definitely didn't mean to suggest otherwise! All I meant was that most of the characters in the game who are portrayed as having racial or class prejudices express them in a glaring and obvious way (Sahrel in the Nature of the Beast Story line, the attitude of the Dwarves of Orzammar toward the castleless etc.) that can make it easy to dislike them (admittedly, some characters, like Tamlen, are an exception – he expresses his prejudices in an obvious way, but personally, I find it hard to dislike him!) – which can make it feel a bit unfair that the Couslands are portrayed so sympathetically.

But after thinking about it a bit more, I take back some of what I said before, and I agree with you that there isn't anything really wrong with the way they decided to portray the Couslands. After all, there's a very good reason that they express their prejudices differently than, say, the Dalish elves – the Dalish elves consider their attitude toward Humans justified because of their history (and I can't say I entirely blame them), while the Couslands aren't even aware of their own prejudices. Thanks for sharing your insights!

Modifié par jillabender, 28 juillet 2012 - 01:33 .

[Corker]

Bhryaen wrote...

The thing is, it seems to switch from the one to the other track by the arbitrary pre-arranged estimation of the writers, not a genuine dynamic directly following my choices- i.e., I didn't select for that sort of Alistair reaction, and I wasn't given a choice in that cutscene. It was simply scripted to happen that way regardless of my expectations. So it comes across forcibly both for my char and for me.

(snip)

I simply know that if, after a short while of a few warm moments and humor with a woman, I just decided for myself "it was time," grabbed her by the back of her head, and leaned her back into a kiss... when I'd let her back up there would be repercussions- even if she'd liked me. Alistair just grinned and acted like he'd just made a bold playa move. How "pimp."

Ah, okay.  I understand now.

Welcome to the sisterhood, brother.    This is the sort of thing why, in real life, we're trying to move away from "no means no" to "yes means yes" - people don't get to assume consent (which must be removed with a 'no'), but should rather assume non-consent, until told otherwise. 

And... was there an indignant and angry response for you to pick?  I would hope that was one anticipated reaction.

As to why "Mr. Shy Nice Guy" would be scripted to do such a thing... it has everything to do with the tropes and expectations of the romance genre.  I would not be surprised in the slightest to find Alistair's "playa" move in 8 out of 10 romantic comedies playing at the nearest cinema this summer.

The things in stories and pictures that make people happy in their pants, by the way, may bear little resemblance to what makes them happy in their pants in real life.  The same person who gets swoony at Alistair initiating a kiss in the game might - justifiably, I think - get furious as a male friend who proclaimed that she was sending 'signals' that she wanted him to kiss her.  It's not a matter of dem crazy wimminz, it's the difference between a fantasy and reality.

Is the fantasy problematic?  I think so, but the zeitgeist didn't ask me.  

[Fiacre]

jillabender wrote...

Actually, I agree with you on just about every point. I think I could have expressed myself better – certainly there are many characters, like Shianni and Tamlen, who did nothing to bring their suffering upon themselves, and I definitely didn't mean to suggest otherwise! All I meant was that most of the characters in the game who are portrayed as having racial or class prejudices express them in a glaring and obvious way (Sahrel in the Nature of the Beast Story line, the attitude of the Dwarves of Orzammar toward the castleless etc.) that can make it easy to dislike them (admittedly, some characters, like Tamlen are an exception – he expresses his prejudices in an obvious way, but personally, I find it hard to dislike him!) – which can make it feel a bit unfair that the Couslands are portrayed so sympathetically.

But after thinking about it a bit more, I take back some of what I said before, and I agree with you that there isn't anything really wrong with the way they decided to portray the Couslands. After all, there's a very good reason that they express their prejudices differently than, say, the Dalish elves – the Dalish elves consider their attitude toward Humans justified because of their history (and I can't say I entirely blame them), while the Couslands aren't even aware of their own prejudices. Thanks for sharing your insights!

You're welcome

Personally, I find it easier to dislike the dwarves for their classism than the elves for their racism, because they really are treated badly. So Sahrel's attitude never bothered me -- I already knew some things about the elves from my first, abandoned playthrough as a Dalish, and I had read about the alienage, so I could see why he was being a jerk to my Noble. (IIRC, you don't get to pick any really positive answers -- your choices range from blaming to elves to deny that you know how the story goes, then from blaming the elves again to saying that surely not everyone thought the Exalted March was a good idea, which Sahrel rightly points out doesn't really make it better. On the other hand, Sahrel does acknowledge that the elves "played some part in [their] downfall".)

And Tamlen is a douchebag at the beginning and by the end of that origin I was really sad about his "death". When I heard what would happen later... It's one of the reasons I like DAO so much -- the setting feels "alive" in a way and the people seem far more real than the characters in other games. Tamlen's being racist, but one can still feel sympathy to him, the Couslands are definitely prejudiced, but they're not portrayed as purely bad people as a result -- they all feel like the world around them shaped them.

[jillabender]

Fiacre wrote...

... It's one of the reasons I like DAO so much -- the setting feels "alive" in a way and the people seem far more real than the characters in other games. Tamlen's being racist, but one can still feel sympathy to him, the Couslands are definitely prejudiced, but they're not portrayed as purely bad people as a result -- they all feel like the world around them shaped them.

For a while, I found the way the Dalish elves were portrayed to be a bit heavy-handed, but the more I think about it, the more I think that they're actually behaving the way many, if not most, people in their situation would act. Some of them can be irritating, but they're still well-written characters who, as you've put it, feel very alive and real.

What I find so clever about Dragon Age is the way that it nudges you into seeing the same situation differently depending on your character's point of view. Although Nan's attitude always bothered me, I didn't realize before reading Faerunner and Bhryaen's comments just how badly the kitchen staff are treated in that scene – not only are they berated because my Cousland let his mabari get out of hand, but he never apologizes to them, or even acknowledges them at all! Personally, I like to think that he'll look back on that and be embarrassed once he's been forced to grow up a bit.

Modifié par jillabender, 21 mai 2012 - 05:17 .

[Fiacre]

I always feel the urge to tell Nan off when she starts threatening the elves -- I'm almost sad I can't tell her off for threatening her staff at least, but ah, well, my guy is just too privileged. I do like to think that befriending Zevran and hearing about his life had a big effect concerning his attitude towards elves. (I do wish there more reactions when Zevran says that surely the Warden didn't live a happy life of contentment. Cause a HN may very well have until a few months ago.)

[Corker]

Fiacre wrote...

So Sahrel's attitude never bothered me -- I already knew some things about the elves from my first, abandoned playthrough as a Dalish, and I had read about the alienage, so I could see why he was being a jerk to my Noble.

Sarel is a jerk to everyone.  He picks a fight with the Dalish Warden, too. 

The werewolves killed his wife.  (He'll only mention this in dialogue with a DE.)  The Warden swoops in, promising to save the clan - only it's too late for her.  He's speaking from grief, not hatred.

[Fiacre]

Really? I never got around to talk with him as my Dalish. Then his initial attitude makes even more sense.

How does his conversation with the DE go? With a HN he talks about the fall of the Dales, which seems a bit redundant when talking with another Dalish.

Modifié par Fiacre, 14 mai 2012 - 03:48 .

[Bhryaen]

Faerunner wrote...
You’ll also notice that Fergus is rather misogynistic, especially if you’re a female Cousland.

Hmph. Actually I haven't tried a girl human yet, so that definitely has me curious... For sure that cutscene exchange where the entire "family" is together in Fergus' room and the two of them just keep saying the wrong things about women and womanizing comes across very awkwardly. I was very uncertain whether this was just the writers thinking that sort of retrosexism is funny or if they were going for some sort of interesting controversy. Since the family is pretty well destroyed soon after, it remains uncertain, though perhaps by making them so despicable it was to soften the blow of the bloody scenes of them to follow...

Faerunner wrote...
One thing I find a little insulting is that in this “dark fantasy,” Bioware usually goes out of their way to show how both sides in most conflicts had some fault except for the human noble.

Well, if Bioware was intending to smear the black and white into grey on every Origin, they certainly did so with the Couslands with their sexist, racist portrayal of the family males. Speaking strictly on the sense of belonging, one's own Cousland has ample reason to resent their own family just as Nathaniel Howe has his own personal reasons to despise his.

But I think the distinction to be made regarding the "balancings" in the Origins is that unlike in other Origins, there is a gaping and conspicuous absence of direct consequences for behavior in the HN one. For CE's the nobles tried to get away crimes against elf women, and they can be killed to a one or not, but regardless the CE gets threatened with prison and execution, and thus is conscripted into the Wardens. For the DC they thumb their nose at the social stratification and get imprisoned and threatened with execution, and thus is conscripted into the Wardens. Even the DE who shoots the three humans in the back ends up hearing about it later as a precipitation of the clan's departure (though even a kind response results the same). And the mage origin- human or elf- also has consequences one faces for having been involved in Jowan's escape one way or another... though you can get away with stealing the staff if your Persuade is high enough...


The HN by contrast walks through a background that flagrantly resembles a watered-down Denerim Arl Estate, and, although the HN loses nearly everything, there isn't a hint of consequences for the Vaughan-like behavior itself. Mind you, the DN can also be a major ****** to people without direct consequences either since their undoing is, just as with the HN, only due to rivals among the ruling circles. Actually I'm not certain with the DN because I've never played a DN ******, always being kind-hearted. Maybe a DN's non-plot-related behavior does affect later experiences, as with having Gorim speak for him or killing the historian or the merchant who offers the magic dagger. Then again, that's part of the distinction: it's still a choice for the DN to be decent or not. The HN is played with complicity regardless: your Cousland is oblivious to Nan's behavior (except toward your dog which apparently your char can empathize with and win a treat for) and plays along happily with Dad's offensiveness. Just a day in the life of a Cousland. *adoring sigh* I've even tried talking with the elven staff (which tends to stay quiet and keep their heads down), and they're all apparently too afraid to say anything other than "servant" lines, including the kitchen staff... so it's not as if your Cousland has a reputation in the household of being a rebel to the general tendencies.


The official Bioware posterboy for the HN... not exactly intended as a Robin Hood figure...

So, yeah, it does just sort of happen in Highandmightyever with the only relief for the conscientious player being that they're all brutally massacred (by an even worse human family)... which isn't exactly what I'd had in mind. Mind you, it's not as if one's char would realistically be able to turn back sexism and racism in the castle within a single day (sort of like a "Quantum Leap" episode zapping into a Cousland's life to change everything and then zapping out). It's just that it would've been a very meaningful dialogue track to include that sort of rebelliousness. It's not as if the "crimes" committed there were the most atrocious. Families do tolerate fathers being pigs or some members taking a mild attitude with household staff all without more than minor resentment. But the story makes it clear it's been flagrant and uncontested day after day, and it's not unrealistic that at least someone- particularly a less-popular younger sibling- would have the sensitivity to recognize and disapprove of it... and particularly not the player who is more likely (ought) to have what Fiacre called "modern values and sensibilities." And we're not talking about the option to knife Nan in the gut or slap Bryce and Fergus silly, just the ability to say at least something to distinguish our Cousland from the KKKouslands. (lol) So it simply would've been better to have included a protest option among the dialogue selections. (It also would've probably been the more charged and interesting dialogue to read/ hear.) So, yeah, it's a bit of an insult that folks like us weren't invited to the Cousland dialogue party...

jillabender wrote...
For a while, I found the way the Dalish elves were portrayed to be a bit heavy-handed, but the more I think about it, the more I think that they're actually behaving the way many, if not most, people in their situation would act.

It is worth noting that it's not as if in DAO there are two equal nations- Humanland and Elfland- and they're just simple rivals who vie for power with each other. In DAO the setting really is that elves have been devastated by humans, reduced to slums or just living by nature (where they still must acquiesce to human belligerence and remain nomadic), so, yes, the Dalish do have cause for their otherwise heavy-handed "shem" hatred- as poor an approach as it may be- while the humans really don't have cause beyond mere gloating. Notably though the Dalish shem hatred isn't universal while the human gloating nearly is... exceptions being perhaps that one Cousland relative who employed an otherwise happy Iona and the Denerim Eamon Estate staff (which is mostly human anyway) since you can usually share a single line of mild dialogue with the elf maid working in the main hall (though you have to return later to be able to get another line of dialogue).

Modifié par Bhryaen, 14 mai 2012 - 04:58 .

[jillabender]

Cork wrote…

Sahrel is a jerk to everyone.  He picks a fight with the Dalish Warden, too.

Fiacre wrote…

Really? I never got around to talk with him as my Dalish… How does his conversation with the DE go?

He suggests to the Dalish Warden that he or she was only recruited so that the Wardens could curry favour with the elves, and becomes angry when he or she tries to set him straight. It actually frustrates me more than his exchanges with a non-Dalish Warden. To me, the fact that he frustrates me so even while making me sympathize with him is a sign of good writing.
 

Bhryaen wrote…

Families do tolerate fathers being pigs or some members taking a mild attitude with household staff all without more than minor resentment. But the story makes it clear it's been flagrant and uncontested day after day, and it's not unrealistic that at least someone- particularly a less-popular younger sibling- would have the sensitivity to recognize and disapprove of it... and particularly not the player who is more likely (ought) to have what Fiacre called "modern values and sensibilities." And we're not talking about the option to knife Nan in the gut or slap Bryce and Fergus silly, just the ability to say at least something to distinguish our Cousland from the KKKouslands. (lol) So it simply would've been better to have included a protest option among the dialogue selections. (It also would've probably been the more charged and interesting dialogue to read/ hear.) So, yeah, it's a bit of an insult that folks like us weren't invited to the Cousland dialogue party [...] In DAO the setting really is that elves have been devastated by humans, reduced to slums or just living by nature (where they still must acquiesce to human belligerence and remain nomadic), so, yes, the Dalish do have cause for their otherwise heavy-handed "shem" hatred- as poor an approach as it may be- while the humans really don't have cause beyond mere gloating. 

If I'm understanding you correctly, you, and Faerunner, found it frustrating that the player doesn't have the option to tell off the very privileged Couslands, but does have the option to tell off characters like Sahrel who actually have a more justifiable reason for their prejudices. If that's what you meant, then I can definitely understand where you're coming from.

Personally, I, like Fiacre, find it interesting to imagine my Cousland characters as flawed people who eventually begin to outgrow the prejudices they grew up with (and I can imagine that some people might even enjoy playing a character who's an entitled jerk! ), but I can definitely understand why you would have preferred to have a different option. (And I have to admit that the idea of being able to slap Fergus silly has a certain appeal…)

Modifié par jillabender, 14 mai 2012 - 09:58 .

[Fiacre]

I still think the reason you don't get such dialogue options is because it wouldn't fit setting wise -- the Couslands aren't bad people, but they're nobility -- a powerful and old noble family, even -- and they have grown up with certain values, the same ones they would have taught their children. I quite like it because it seems more immersive than my characters background having no effect on their attitude towards things, though I see why someone would be bothered. It's a character arc I find interesting to play, but others might not.

Though, considering that the HN, at least outside the castle, seems to be the favourite (Dairren mentions that people think they're more likely to succeed Bryce than Fergus), I don't see why he would be less popular. Certaionly not less loved by his parents, considering that both Eleanor and Bryce make it a point how much they care about them.

Incidentally, what do Bryce and Fergus say that's so terrible? The wench joke? The banter in that scene reminds me a lot of my own family, just period/setting appropriate. (And I never play as a female, so if they have some different lines there, I don't know of them.)


And that's very interesting to hear about Sarel! I'll have to remember to talk to him whenever I next play a DE.

[jillabender]

Fiacre wrote...

Incidentally, what do Bryce and Fergus say that's so terrible? The wench joke? The banter in that scene reminds me a lot of my own family, just period/setting appropriate. (And I never play as a female, so if they have some different lines there, I don't know of them.)

Personally, I don't really dislike either Bryce or Fergus. As I mentioned earlier, I find some of Fergus' remarks to Teyrna Eleanor to be a bit patronizing and sexist, but I can't bring myself to dislike him for it, because his strong affection for his family still comes through. I was joking about slapping him… mostly.

Modifié par jillabender, 14 mai 2012 - 08:33 .

[Fiacre]

Ah, right! Forget about that. I only remembered something about the wench joke being mentioned...

I found it a bit endearing -- we tease each other much like that at home and yeah, it all seemed to be good natured.