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[jillabender]

Faerunner wrote…

I don't mean to sound petty, but humans are pretty dang privileged and don't need to be defended, whereas elves already get kicked and spat on enough […] As a human noble? The unpleasant implication of racism, sexism or classism being a by-product of a privileged, patriarchal lifestyle is very stealthily slipped in at the origin, never directly addressed, then swept under the blood-stained rug after the origin and pretty much ignored for the rest of the game. Other human nobles may display such attitudes or behaviours that both the player and the game can call out (Vaughan, Howe, Isolde), but the Cousland family? Never ... it's like the game is afraid to acknowledge that they ever had any faults at all. :/

You make a good point, and you don't sound petty at all. I think I felt a bit differently about the Human Noble origin because I didn't think of the story as being afraid to acknowledge the Couslands' faults – I saw the story as being told from the point of view of the player character, whose upbringing and love for his or her family might easily blind him or her to their faults.

That being said, I can understand why someone might prefer to have the opportunity to play a more self-aware Human character. I can also see why someone might prefer to play more of an underdog character as a Human, which is why I agree that it's a shame they didn't include a Human Commoner origin. Now that I think of it, I might even prefer to play an underdog Human Commoner over a pampered Human Noble, given the chance!

Modifié par jillabender, 15 mai 2012 - 12:36 .

[jillabender]

Faerunner wrote...

I can see where the player character would love his or her family, but I kind of resent the game telling me that I have to love them, or at least think the same as them. As I said, player characters from every other origin get the option to be kind or rude, loving or hateful, agree or disagree, be supportive or destructive to their families and home areas. Not having the option with the Couslands (especially when they are already the best off) feels a little imbalanced.

[…]

I'm sorry about that, this is just something I've been carrying around for a long time that I needed to get off my chest. If you still feel differently, no problem, everyone has their feelings about this game. This is just how I feel and I'll leave it at that. ^^;

No need to apologize :happy:. Now that I think more about it, it's true that the responses available to a Cousland don't offer as many choices with regard to the PC's feelings about his or her environment and upbringing compared with the other origins. I think the writers felt that providing the option to portray a less elitist noble would have felt like too much of a cop-out, but whether they were right about that or not, it does make the possibilities for role-playing more limited. And I agree that it would have made the story more believable and interesting if your character actually met more people who resented the Couslands. Personally, I found that the dialogue available to my Cousland characters still fired my imagination and held my interest, but that's entirely subjective, and doesn't make your frustration less valid.

For me personally, the Circle Mage origin is the one I find frustrating at times. To be fair, mage characters do have a decent variety of dialogue choices regarding their feelings about the Circle. But the way mages are treated, and all of the ethical dilemmas that raises, seems to me to demand more evocative and emotionally charged responses from the PC. (Although playing a Circle Mage has become more fun since I downloaded the mod that lets a female mage romance Cullen! ) If there were more moments like Sten's conversation with the Warden about mages, I would probably enjoy playing a Circle Mage more. (I also have my issues with the way the Mage/Templar conflict was written in DA2, but that's a discussion for another time! ) I know that some players list the Mage origin as their favourite, and that's fine; it just means that that storyline jibes with their imaginations in a way that it doesn't quite for me.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 mai 2012 - 12:43 .

[Bhryaen]

jillabender wrote...
That being said, I can understand why someone might prefer to have the opportunity to play a more self-aware Human character. I can also see why someone might prefer to play more of an underdog character as a Human, which is why I agree that it's a shame they didn't include a Human Commoner origin. Now that I think of it, I might even prefer to play an underdog Human Commoner over a pampered Human Noble, given the chance!

Can't remember where I read it, but IIRC the Human Commoner Origin that was being proposed for DAO was supposed to take place in Redcliffe and was nixed for time, budget, and possibly plot integration difficulties. Mind you though, you can play a total thug as a DC, not really an underdog at all but a full-out Beraht lackey who just bungled a job, and your CE can thug fellow elves and take the Vaughan deal... and an HC likely wouldn't necessarily have been an underdog for the same reasons.

Regarding the Couslands, I haven't much to add that Faerunner didn't already say so well that it would just seem needlessly repetitive... except...

The whole idea of "preferring" to play the "underdog" misses the point. The socially conscious dialogue/ action option isn't just "preferable" but simply really ought to be there in the Cousland household story, and not even an "underdog" type of dialogue or a major altercation, just the ability to express one's own disapproval of Nan's belligerence or Dad and Bro's sexist "humor." It's perfectly natural to do so, particularly as the unbalancing behavior lends itself to being balanced by some other voice... but it's not an option, not even a hint of it, so "preference" doesn't even play a part. You must play an oblivious noble twerp with rose-colored glasses regarding social strife, even with it introduced with such conspicuousness- and nothing else in the gameworld knocks those glasses off. Invent all you wish to make it more accommodating- the role is lacking. It's quite good to have a player experience the callousness of nobility, but to force them to have to play along with it as well... begs the question why.

The sort of thing Nan does isn't- for me at least- a character "flaw" or "fault." Oghren's drinking to excess is a character flaw, or Leliana's lunacy about speaking for a "maker," or even Dog's constant barking and slobbering even through the Epilogue slides- flaws, but not something that draws a line in the sand. But tolerating the abuse of elves isn't a flaw... It's a problem. It's the sort of thing that adds a decisive dynamic to a story, one of protagonists and antagonists, and it's one essential element to any good story. The HN Origin story doesn't lack such a conflict: it's in the feelings involved with those moments of realization that your family and employees aren't necessarily your best friends. "You can choose your friends, not your family..." But there's no protagonist. In the case of Nan, there's not even an acknowledgement of you as a protagonist: you're lumped in with the antagonists, and you're expected to think in Beaver Cleaverisms about the antagonism itself. Well, I refuse, and thus it's a lot of suspension of critical thought I require to proceed with the HN Origin... and what's the fun in that?

As I said, it's not the degree of antagonism as is Vaughan's version of racism, but it's on that side of the conflict, and not only is your character written to stay on that side, but no protagonist role ever emerges to contradict it. So again, why not? It's not a boon to any other player than one that enjoys, as you mentioned, playing an "entitled jerk." And it makes it difficult to pretend that you're just a little flawed and have areas for improvement: you're one of those in the wrong whether or not you recognize or acknowledge it.

Then there's this notion (which I'd thought I'd preempted by mentioning it prior to it arising *sigh*):

Fiacre wrote...
I still think the reason you don't get such dialogue options is because it wouldn't fit setting wise -- the Couslands aren't bad people, but they're nobility -- a powerful and old noble family, even -- and they have grown up with certain values, the same ones they would have taught their children.

There are socially-conscious nobles. In the DC Origin I love hearing Lord Helmi's take on the caste system- really just the only sensible opinion to have about the senseless social antagonism. Lord Helmi would also probably have reacted to Nan's behavior at least in some way. One may even be corralled into a certain lifestyle by life's circumstances but retain one's independence of mind and reflection. It is not in the least "unfit" that children rebel. In fact, one could count on it, particularly when there actually is something prevalent to rebel against, regardless of whatever "teaching" parents do (as the family's head males "taught" Fergus' child about wenches or Nan the Nanny's "teaching" how to deal with "useless elves"). Regardless of how much one might love one's family or how universally and flagrantly it's tolerated, offensive is offensive. And, yes, banter goes on in a family and members tease each other in good fun, but that's not what we witness with the Couslands: we endure simple bad taste and must swallow it with no option to spit it out.

As for my further mention of the HN being the less popular younger child, note how Bryce defers to Fergus, celebrates him, lets him wear the mantle of respect while your character's interest in joining the Wardens or whatever else is rebuked: you're just the stand-in heir anyway, the "pup" of the brood regardless of how much better a fighter you may be than Fergus. It's a subtle difference in role and treatment, not an oppressive or striking one, but it's enough that it adds a different perspective to your Cousland outlook that wouldn't be shared by anyone else... enough of a different perspective that it needn't be taken as given that you're as oblivious as the rest of the family... So there's a storyline "arc" that just clicks the Taunt button insistently, but instead you only exist as a happy appendage of ignoble "nobility."

But there's no sweeping conflict to outline with the HN's potential reactions to the Cousland household general tendencies, just a way that lets you be better than that...

Nan: "What am I supposed to do with you useless elves?"
HN: "Uh oh, guys, she's pretending she's the useful one again."/
HN: *sigh* "If you were to speak to my mabari like that you'd lose an arm."/
HN: "Well, you could talk nicely with them for once."/
HN: "Give them a bigger stipend?"/
HN: "Nan, Nan, Nan... will you never tire of berating your staff?"/
HN: "What am I supposed to do with a useless nanny?"/
HN: "And I thought I was the rude one in the household..."/
HN: "Here we go- forcing us to hire new kitchen staff just like the last time..."/
HN: "Well, it seems you're busy browbeating your assistants again, so I won't detain you further..."/
HN: *slaps Nan silly* (lol)
Elves: *snicker*
Nan: "Watch your mouth! You're never too old for me to scold you, you know."
HN: "And I'm never too young to ignore you either."

In none of those dialogue alternatives is it required that the HN be overly confrontational or incongruously championlike, especially given that clearly her or his mere dialogue won't be dramatically affecting such entrenched social conditions, much less Nan herself. It's just a natural reaction flowing from the conditions which also happens to avoid complicity- and in a way one might imagine the HN usually does when Nan gets like that (which does seem fairly normal for her). Plus it gives you an opportunity to demonstrate a more decent character than the less than decent conditions, the kind of character that might be more likely to show the strength to persevere through the severe life-altering trauma to follow...

Or choose to be "flawed..." because it's then your choice...

But I still prefer my idea above of preempting her "I quit" threats with, "Hey, Nan, here's your 24hrs notice. This nice guard here will escort you out of the castle with your things without even being impolite to you. How does he do it, right?... Now, which elf gets to take your job? Let's see..."


Just my take on it... and just like having different dialogue options in a game, we all have different ways we approach gaming...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 16 mai 2012 - 07:29 .

[Bhryaen]

Much belated reply regarding the improprieties of Alistairism...

Corker wrote...
Welcome to the sisterhood, brother. 

As an emissary from the brotherhood, I accept this welcome to the sisterhood with honor and distinction. ;-)

Corker wrote...
This is the sort of thing why, in real life, we're trying to move away from "no means no" to "yes means yes" - people don't get to assume consent (which must be removed with a 'no'), but should rather assume non-consent, until told otherwise.

Huh, and I thought I was attuned to the latest feminist theory. I'll have to remember that one- does sound a lot more effective. So annoying that rules must be implemented at all, but with Alistair out there on the prowl... *shrugs*

Corker wrote...
And... was there an indignant and angry response for you to pick?  I would hope that was one anticipated reaction.

I mentioned before that 2 of the 4 choices were the "no" meaning "no," but neither were particularly "angry-" more like thinking the grapple-kiss just didn't have enough chocolate sprinkles on it. Alas that's not really a resolution. The dynamic introduced the element of his brutishness which wasn't addressed by such options, and his reaction to his fellow Warden's resistance to his brutishness was to plummet his approval... which is the second part of why he seems such an arse to me.

Corker wrote...
As to why "Mr. Shy Nice Guy" would be scripted to do such a thing... it has everything to do with the tropes and expectations of the romance genre.  I would not be surprised in the slightest to find Alistair's "playa" move in 8 out of 10 romantic comedies playing at the nearest cinema this summer."

Yep. Kind of like the criticism of the old sitcom "Good Times" that its portrayal of blacks was written by whites, I rather doubt the majority of those self-dubbed "romantic comedies" were written by women...

Corker wrote...
The things in stories and pictures that make people happy in their pants, by the way, may bear little resemblance to what makes them happy in their pants in real life.  The same person who gets swoony at Alistair initiating a kiss in the game might - justifiably, I think - get furious as a male friend who proclaimed that she was sending 'signals' that she wanted him to kiss her.  It's not a matter of dem crazy wimminz, it's the difference between a fantasy and reality

That's true really. We can invent all sorts of reasons for things that happen in a fiction since it's art and in the eye of the beholder, whereas reality, well, doesn't so readily lend itself to revisionism. Still, I was already predisposed to reject such an action from Alistair: it wasn't the sort of thing I'd even fantasize about for a character I think of fondly- the imprudence, I mean, not the kiss... More a fantasy to take out that mysterious dagger Wardens seem to keep behind their back and use it as an Alistair-repellant.

Corker wrote...
Is the fantasy problematic?  I think so, but the zeitgeist didn't ask me.

Me neither... never does... to its own detriment hehehe

Modifié par Bhryaen, 16 mai 2012 - 08:12 .

[jillabender]

Bhryaen wrote...

The whole idea of "preferring" to play the "underdog" misses the point. The socially conscious dialogue/ action option isn't just "preferable" but simply really ought to be there in the Cousland household story, and not even an "underdog" type of dialogue or a major altercation, just the ability to express one's own disapproval of Nan's belligerence or Dad and Bro's sexist "humor." It's perfectly natural to do so, particularly as the unbalancing behavior lends itself to being balanced by some other voice... but it's not an option, not even a hint of it, so "preference" doesn't even play a part. You must play an oblivious noble twerp with rose-colored glasses regarding social strife, even with it introduced with such conspicuousness- and nothing else in the gameworld knocks those glasses off. Invent all you wish to make it more accommodating- the role is lacking. It's quite good to have a player experience the callousness of nobility, but to force them to have to play along with it as well... begs the question why.

The sort of thing Nan does isn't- for me at least- a character "flaw" or "fault." Oghren's drinking to excess is a character flaw, or Leliana's lunacy about speaking for a "maker," or even Dog's constant barking and slobbering even through the Epilogue slides- flaws, but not something that draws a line in the sand. But tolerating the abuse of elves isn't a flaw... It's a problem. It's the sort of thing that adds a decisive dynamic to a story, one of protagonists and antagonists, and it's one essential element to any good story. The HN Origin story doesn't lack such a conflict: it's in the feelings involved with those moments of realization that your family and employees aren't necessarily your best friends. "You can choose your friends, not your family..." But there's no protagonist. In the case of Nan, there's not even an acknowledgement of you as a protagonist: you're lumped in with the antagonists, and you're expected to think in Beaver Cleaverisms about the antagonism itself. Well, I refuse, and thus it's a lot of suspension of critical thought I require to proceed with the HN Origin... and what's the fun in that?

As I said, it's not the degree of antagonism as is Vaughan's version of racism, but it's on that side of the conflict, and not only is your character written to stay on that side, but no protagonist role ever emerges to contradict it. So again, why not? It's not a boon to any other player than one that enjoys, as you mentioned, playing an "entitled jerk." And it makes it difficult to pretend that you're just a little flawed and have areas for improvement: you're one of those in the wrong whether or not you recognize or acknowledge it.

I hope I didn't come across as minimizing or condoning the racism and classism in the Cousland household by referring to the Couslands as "flawed." You're right to point out that prejudice and discrimination aren't just character flaws – they're a social problem. I was trying to convey the idea that even otherwise decent people can have very ugly and offensive social prejudices. To me, that doesn't make their attitudes okay; it just means that those attitudes aren't limited to people who are horrible through and through.

Now that I think more about it, I think I misspoke when I said that there's nothing wrong with the Human Noble origin. There are plenty of things about the writing that could have been done better – I agree with you that the story does seem to demand that someone responsible for the elitism in the Cousland household receive a verbal slap in the face, like the one that an elven PC can give Leliana (I thought that was a great moment, packing just the right emotional punch). And I agree that the whole Human Noble origin introduces a lot of potential for interesting conflict that's not taken advantage of as much as it could be (I actually hadn't thought about it in quite those terms before you pointed it out).

Where I see those issues a bit differently than you seem to is that while I do see them as problems with the writing, they don't leave me feeling personally offended with the story the way you seem to be (feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting you here). Personally, if I'm offended by the way a story about prejudice and discrimination is told, it's usually because I feel as though I'm being told the story by someone who shares some of the offensive attitudes portrayed in the story, and I didn't feel that way here – I sometimes felt as though the story was being told from the point of view of a character who has some offensive attitudes, but that, to me, is different. But if you still feel differently, I can understand and respect that.

(By the way, I know you've been around on the forums longer than I have, so feel free to let me know if I'm taking this thread too far off-topic – I've really been enjoying this discussion with you, but I don't want to overstay my welcome! ^^

Modifié par jillabender, 17 mai 2012 - 09:09 .

[Fiacre]

I agree with pretty much everything jillabender just said.

And I can see where you're coming from now, Bhryaen. I suppose I never saw much of a problem because to me it seemed quite clear that the HN and his family are close and that as a result he'd be more likely to take up their prejudices as well; though your dialogue suggestion do seem like they could add a lot.

And I can't say I ever thought that the pup came second -- Bryce being all "No :|" when the suggestion to become a warden comes up gave me more the impression of him being protective -- perhaps overprotective, though considering the mortality rate of Warden's understandably so -- and then he also has to consider the possibility of both him and Fergus falling at Ostagar, leaving the HN as his heir (as Oriana points out), especially if there's anything to the in-game speculation of the HN being more likely to succeed Bryce than Fergus. And his "cherished son" speech seems quite convincing to me. (Which isn't to say that I think he's the perfect father and can do no wrong in the parenting department! My HN's do all have quite the daddy issues after all...)

Personally, I like the HN origin a lot, but considering that it gives some of my favourite things to work with (revenge plot, the potential for daddy issues, family drama and fluff), seems to me best integrated into the plot and lets me marry Anora (), I might be a bit biased there. But thinking about it, it does have its flaws in the writing.

[jillabender]

Hanz54321 wrote…

I think it's great when threads take a swerve. Some call it "hijacking" but really it's just someone say something interesting enough to change the initial subject.

Thanks! I'm glad I found this forum; it's great to have fun and interesting people to chat with about my favourite game!

By the way, Bhryaen, I loved your suggestions for dialogue that would let you tell Nan off – I wish they could be included in the game!

Modifié par jillabender, 16 mai 2012 - 05:25 .

[Bhryaen]

Fiacre wrote...
And I can see where you're coming from now, Bhryaen. I suppose I never saw much of a problem because to me it seemed quite clear that the HN and his family are close and that as a result he'd be more likely to take up their prejudices as well; though your dialogue suggestion do seem like they could add a lot.

Being close doesn't necessarily entail being a lackey. In fact, it can mean more "wiggle room" interpersonally to take contrary positions since acceptance is assured- particularly due to the significance of heirdom in that case. I simply harken back to the Lord Helmi example for a DAO-native noble family which includes a socially critical member who is nevertheless accepted entirely by their family. And after all, the "likeliness" factor is relative. How likely is it that a Duster would risk their neck for Oskias or enter and beat the Provings, or that a CE will actually storm and take over the ruling estate itself, or that anyone would ever overcome the odds to defeat the Archdemon? Yet that improbability is built into DAO... while the otherwise far more probable outcome of merely being a HN with a social conscience in the HN Origin apparently is not... *shrugs*

Fiacre wrote...
And I can't say I ever thought that the pup came second -- Bryce being all "No :|" when the suggestion to become a warden comes his "cherished son" speech seems quite convincing to me.

You may be correct about this point- i.e., Bryce favoring patronized Pup over Fergus- but Fergus is accorded the honor of leading the Highever contingent to Cailan's forces, and the banter between those two is far more, shall we say, "on the same wavelength" than the talking down (cherishingly or no) that Bryce affords our HN daughter/ son. And even if the dialogue were completely "Wow, Dad, we're like best pals," my point was only that the HN character does have a unique experience from which to garner more personality than as an oblivious dude with a dog who sleeps with elf girls.

[Fiacre]

Bhryaen wrote...
Being close doesn't necessarily entail being a lackey. In fact, it can mean more "wiggle room" interpersonally to take contrary positions since acceptance is assured- particularly due to the significance of heirdom in that case. I simply harken back to the Lord Helmi example for a DAO-native noble family which includes a socially critical member who is nevertheless accepted entirely by their family. And after all, the "likeliness" factor is relative. How likely is it that a Duster would risk their neck for Oskias or enter and beat the Provings, or that a CE will actually storm and take over the ruling estate itself, or that anyone would ever overcome the odds to defeat the Archdemon? Yet that improbability is built into DAO... while the otherwise far more probable outcome of merely being a HN with a social conscience in the HN Origin apparently is not... *shrugs*

Is Helmi accepted though? IIRC he calls himself something like "the shame of the assembly" and sounds quite... resentful when his mother comes up. Seemed like a very bitter  man, while I always got the impression that the HN is being sheltered.

But yeah, the more we alk about it, the more sense it'd make to me if they had included at least some social conscience for the HN. Especially since (and I ten to forget those options as I never choose them) you do have really rude dialogue options when talking to Bryce and Eleanor. Now I'm vaguely curious how they react to those...

You may be correct about this point- i.e., Bryce favoring patronized Pup over Fergus- but Fergus is accorded the honor of leading the Highever contingent to Cailan's forces, and the banter between those two is far more, shall we say, "on the same wavelength" than the talking down (cherishingly or no) that Bryce affords our HN daughter/ son. And even if the dialogue were completely "Wow, Dad, we're like best pals," my point was only that the HN character does have a unique experience from which to garner more personality than as an oblivious dude with a dog who sleeps with elf girls.

I thought the HN was deemed to young -- and Fergus does say Bryce and Eleanor fought about it for days, which suggests that Bryce may have even wanted to take the Pup with him. Even if not, imo it makes sense to keep the HN at home; someone has to look after Highever and if the HN is the favoiured heir, it'd make sense to start giving him positions of power  before actually inheriting -- as well as keeping him away from the war, where he may very well die, while Fergus can go off and risk his life.

I actually didn't find any banter between the HN and Bryce at all. Maybe I play my characers too serious. But yes, I get your point. Outside of family relations and some values like duty there's not much too characterize the HN.

as an oblivious dude with a dog who sleeps with elf girls.

Or daddy's second. /pokes her latest HN and his daddy issues

[Bhryaen]

Fiacre wrote...
Is Helmi accepted though? IIRC he calls himself something like "the shame of the assembly" and sounds quite... resentful when his mother comes up. Seemed like a very bitter man, while I always got the impression that the HN is being sheltered.

Had to check on this... but, no, I was correct. Helmi just says his mother is "disappointed" about him spending so much time in the tavern- a sign of concern, no?- not speaking an ill word or with disdain, and clearly his family still supports him despite the unpopularity of his social outlook. The Assembly doesn't seem to despise him either, more of just a lone voice there, but it's irrelevant anyway since I was talking about conformity pressure within the family... And if you've ever simply spoken disinterestedly about the Gray Wardens in front of Bryce, you'll see how harsh he can get with your HN ("I'll not have this in my household!"), even in front of guests (including Howe), but yet he still seems to care about his HN offspring quite a lot. So, yes, you can get away with thinking differently in the Cousland household, even though there's not much camaraderie you'll get from it.

But yeah, the more we alk about it, the more sense it'd make to me if they had included at least some social conscience for the HN. Especially since (and I ten to forget those options as I never choose them) you do have really rude dialogue options when talking to Bryce and Eleanor. Now I'm vaguely curious how they react to those...

Also decided to check on this one (so as to confirm I'm not just blowing smoke...)

The HN does regularly have the option to be a brazenly impudent type- albeit never an option to state anything in defense of mistreated elves or women, only to be brazenly impudent in general- but it can seem (loosely) as if the choices are taken as a reaction to the various characters' actions. There is a dialogue option with Mom after the kitchen encounter to suggest firing Nan- which is immediately rejected, of course- and when Nan suggests the HN's mabari be "put down," you can respond, "Perhaps we should have you put down." (lol) During the storytelling bit you can respond to her entreaty to begin the story by saying, "In a dark and murky world, there was a smelly cook..." (Seems the HN does have a sense of the Cousland household. hehe) Plus there is an Intimidate check during the kitchen encounter to be made against Nan to have her talk more "civilly..." However, all of it seems only in relation to offense your HN takes against her treatment of the HN (and the dog), none regarding the elves, particularly as she continues berating and hounding them in front of the HN unimpeded. You even have the option of suggesting to Nan to have them whipped, and to her "credit" she rejects that, quite content to instead simply berate and hound them with every address she makes to them. But it's ok because she's feeling pressured to prepare for guests... yeah... Fortunately Jowan- I mean, the male kichen staff elf named Servant (popular name among the Cousland staff despite that Nan herself calls him by a proper name) gets to call her a "miserable old bat," but, well, that's that...

What Faerunner said a ways back is so true too about the irony of her little Hohaku story with a moral of "treating others equally" and not "using one's position to harm others." Not a single dialogue choice acknowledging the glaring irony??? Breathtakingly oblivious...

You can also be a total jerk to Ser Gilmore, and he seems utterly oblivious to it as much as the HN is to Nan's racism...

On the sexist "humor" between Fergus and Bryce, it's Fergus who starts it, suggesting that his wife, Oriana- who had suddenly and awkwardly insisted on making a make-shift Maker wish list- add wenches to the list as well... and it's hard not wanting to ride Fergus' joke along with him since he's mostly just mocking her attempt to pray away the impending danger. But if the intent was just to mock the silly Makerism, why not suggest adding 1000 sovereigns to the list, or a vorpal darkspawn killing sword, or a chocolate parfait (hm, sounds Orlesian, must be part of a plot to undermine Ferelden!). Then when Oriana protests about saying it in front of Eleanor (why care if it's in front of Eleanor but not about the message it sends to their son?), Bryce actually intercedes over Fergus' own wife to add his little "wench" witticism (read: "ho"). Eleanor calls them childish, and her own son Fergus patronizes her for protesting- a la "Oh, she's not saying anything worth paying attention to- just Mom being Mom." And of course the HN just listens to the entire banter wordlessly... which is another reason to see the HN as in some different position regarding the family, keeping their own counsel...

Then again the male HN's dialogue options are almost corralled toward a sexist attitude as well... having- just as with Nan- again, no contrary dialogue option. To Fergus' "when you have a woman in your life, you'll understand," it's (slightly paraphrased):

1. Me no need girls.
2. (lie) Oh, I got a girl already. (Doesn't require the dialogue with Iona, and, well, Iona isn't exactly a girlfriend at that point)
3. "Women are overrated." (Now there's a winner line...)
4. But I'm such a playboy. *singing* Everywhere I go, just a gigolo...

What about?
5. Well, I haven't met a woman who I've clicked with yet. *shrugs*
5. Well, I haven't met a woman who likes me yet. *shrugs*
5. Don't you remember Twixleena? Dumped me hard- not about to go through that again any time soon.
5. I'll be keeping my eyes open, Ferg.
5. If you say so, Matchmaker.
5. Yeah, I figure the right one will come along at some point...
5. But I haven't learned how to hunt yet, so the clan says I can't. (lol)
5. Actually I've been waiting to meet Howe's underage daughter... (lol)

Not the greatest alternatives, but you get the idea- something that doesn't require being a dweeb regarding women. Is it so unlikely (or unreasonable) to have a more woman-friendly reply? And if so, what does that say of the Couslands? Actually Oriana sounds nauseatingly servile most of the time ("Yes, my awesome husband, whatever you say")- just Fergus' type apparently.

As a side note, Fergus seems to have named his son Oren rather than Fergen or Brycen- i.e., named after his wife rather than a male of the family... which is not exactly a sexist gesture.

Also after testing the girl HN Origin, I see it's Howe who balks at Bryce's decision to train the girl HN as a warrior: "How... unique." So a plus for Bryce. Then it's actually Eleanor, not Bryce, who, after hearing the girl HN complimented on her battle prowess by Lady Landra's son, joins Howe's balking in part by saying it was the "softer arts that landed her a husband." Thanks for the encouragement, Mom. Then Fergus is the one to compliment Antivan women after Oriana says that in Antiva warrior women are "unheard of" and rushes to say the girl HN would be his first choice as a Gray Warden ("not that father would ever allow it"). Plus he says he wishes he could be fighting the darkspawn side-by-side with his sister HN, and Bryce clearly has every confidence that the girl HN can handle things. So they're not all bad... even if they do apparently enjoy the occasional "boys will by boys" routine... And for what it's worth, the responses from a girl HN to Fergus' "you'll understand when you have a husband" are the female equivalent in dweebness... yet somehow they don't come across quite as lousily...

I thought the HN was deemed to young -- and Fergus does say Bryce and Eleanor fought about it for days, which suggests that Bryce may have even wanted to take the Pup with him. Even if not, imo it makes sense to keep the HN at home; someone has to look after Highever and if the HN is the favoiured heir, it'd make sense to start giving him positions of power before actually inheriting -- as well as keeping him away from the war, where he may very well die, while Fergus can go off and risk his life.

It's definitely not a matter of the HN being too young. I see now that it's stated (by Oriana) that Bryce and Eleanor fought over allowing the HN to accompany Bryce and Fergus to Ostagar, and you get Bryce early on saying he would have brought the HN with, but that Eleanor would kill him if he were to do so... but then there's a bit of flipflopping or inconsistency on the part of the writing regarding Bryce's stance. When Duncan suggests recruiting the HN to the Gray Wardens (an organization that, as I mentioned earlier, Bryce praises in a frenzied fit if your HN merely shows disinterest), it's Bryce who literally stands in front of the HN to say "no way, Jose!" (or rather "I've not got so many children as to send them all off to battle"). So was it Eleanor who was arguing to send the HN off to Ostagar against Bryce's wishes? Certainly her dialogue with the HN hints at the opposite. And Bryce does relent quite a bit at the end of the "family scene" when asked again about joining the Wardens. The primary concern does seem to be about leaving a viable heir around rather than the HN's age... the bald pragmatism of which isn't exactly endearing...

I actually didn't find any banter between the HN and Bryce at all. Maybe I play my characers too serious. But yes, I get your point. Outside of family relations and some values like duty there's not much too characterize the HN.

Well, one is definable by what they don't do as well as by what they do do, but, yes, I've explored it a bit just now and there's zilch "spontaneous" banter of Dear Ol' Dad with the HN (unlike the way he spontaneously joins Fergus' wenchin' remarks to give a high five). Instead all such Bryce-HN banter is by the HN pursuing dialogue with him directly or him piping into the HN's discussion with Howe or Duncan (to address Howe and Duncan, not the HN). So, yes, a telling silence...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 26 mai 2012 - 07:32 .

[Fiacre]

Huh. Helmi had always seemed sort of resentful to me; I'll have to pay more attention next time I'll do Orzammar.

Yep, I knew that there's only dialogue against being rude to the HN and the dog, though I didn't know what reactions you'll get for choosing it.

Thinking about it, you do get teasing dialogue options when talking with Eleanor, but not Bryce. You can be rude to him (like threatening that you'll kill him if he doesn't let you fight), but yeah, nothing that could initiate the sort of banter he has with Fergus (and you can have some banter with Fergus). Hmm... Is it sad that most of the things you've pointed out fit with Shea's issues even though I never picked up on all this (at least not consciously)?

And "Women are overrated." sounds like those evasive coming out but not really phrases you sometimes see. (Particularly reminds me of Da Vinci's "Women provide little distraction." in Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood.)

They really seem to be kind of hit and miss with their attitudes, don't they?

And Bryce wanting to keep one heir safe... does not actually bother me as much, just like Eleanor telling me that I'll have to carry on the Cousland name. Though the flip flopping on if he wants the HN to fight or not is sort of weird. (And Howe is definitely sexist. When you're a female HN and confront him in his estate he says "Well, well. Bryce Cousland's little spitfire. All grown up and still playing the man." -- while a male one gets "Well, well. Bryce Cousland's little boy. All grown up and still trying to fit into daddy's armor." He also disapproves of Bryce leaving marriage decisions up to the HN.)

And thank you for checking all these things! I definitely don't experiment with the dialogue enough.

[jillabender]

Fiacre wrote…

And "Women are overrated." sounds like those evasive coming out but not really phrases you sometimes see. (Particularly reminds me of Da Vinci's "Women provide little distraction." in Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood.)

I have to admit, that occurred to me as a possibility, too. I'm role-playing one of my male Couslands as gay, which puts an interesting spin on his relationships with his family. Would Bryce and Eleanor worry about what other noble families might think? Would they make him uncomfortable by pressuring him to marry and carry on the Cousland line? The game doesn't really tell us what attitudes nobles in Ferelden might have toward gay relationships, but it's interesting to speculate.

[Fiacre]

Well, you can seduce Dairren... And I think you can talk about seducing someone with Fergus at least, but I don't know if you can say that it's a boy, my characters are a bit too discreet about their affairs to tell big brother about it.

I think when Cathal got hit on by Zevran and was all "But I'm a man?" Zevran implied that Ferelden isn't quite so open about homosexuality as Antiva, though, as I said, seducing Dairren isn't really any more difficult than seducing Iona.

Admittedly, I haven't really thought about it, since I've only done bisexual and Morrigan-sexual straight yet. (And my characters would try to carry on the Cousland line even if they were gay <.<...) I know Eleanor and Bryce both talk about carrying on the line (Bryce during his cherished son speech and Eleanor during the attack), but also that Bryce wants to let the HN find his own way (Howe is unimpressed).

[YayForYuffie]

I have to say:
Caladrius - Slavery, arrogance, stupid robes & the whole "Oh. It's you. Must I dirty my hands" attitude he has going on.
Uldred - I don't take well to being condescended. The dialogue with him was fun though.
Vaughn - Rapist. 'Nuff said.
Howe - Dayumn, he's creepy. And a toad. Ick. My Cousland got bad vibes. She was right, but it didn't matter.
Branka - Crazy, kills house, shrieking, etc.
I'm awesome at being original.:happy:

Fenris - Fanbait, whine whine whine, blah blah blah mages are evil, I'm a tortured soul, look at my pretty marks.

Modifié par YayForYuffie, 28 mai 2012 - 08:41 .

[vortex216]

my list is to long, so im just gunnu make a list and you can infere why (not in order):

cammen, old tegrin, logain, howe, isole, wynne, erlinda, anora, bhelen, harrowmont, jarvia, vaughn, the begger in the alienage that brings a mob and asks for money, zathrian, gregoir, cullen, all tranquil, uldred, kolgrim, marjoline, and caladrius

Modifié par vortex216, 30 mai 2012 - 10:36 .

[Bhryaen]

Yeah, I forgot Uldred. He's most annoying simply because we end up locked into a cutscene watching him... whatever... that poor guy into an abomination without being able to intervene. Then after he's finally finished with the poor guy, we can come up and say, "Stop that!" But worse than Uldred is that bloody Tower Sloth Demon. I mean I'm not giving up those nice attribute boosts, don't get me wrong, but I sooo hate how we have to look at his disgusting face as if somehow his revolting appearance is something too irresistible to look away from. It's simply quite resistible. At least give him mesmerizing eyes or magic hand gestures or a swirling diamond in his forehead or something... My first impulse is to either look away or stab him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Hey, I actually liked Howe. He's a real pleasure to whack.

[KotorEffect3]

That guard captain you run into in the Orzammar commons when you first enter Orzammar.

Greigor (don't like Templars in general)

Isolde (she doesn't seem to give a crap about the village)

Velanna (I understand not liking humans, but she is an extremist)

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 04 juin 2012 - 05:30 .

[KotorEffect3]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Hey, I actually liked Howe. He's a real pleasure to whack.

Howe is fun to hate.  He is actualy a very entertaining villain

[Ryzaki]

jillabender wrote...

Fiacre wrote…

And "Women are overrated." sounds like those evasive coming out but not really phrases you sometimes see. (Particularly reminds me of Da Vinci's "Women provide little distraction." in Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood.)

I have to admit, that occurred to me as a possibility, too. I'm role-playing one of my male Couslands as gay, which puts an interesting spin on his relationships with his family. Would Bryce and Eleanor worry about what other noble families might think? Would they make him uncomfortable by pressuring him to marry and carry on the Cousland line? The game doesn't really tell us what attitudes nobles in Ferelden might have toward gay relationships, but it's interesting to speculate.

Fergus' reaction is rather nonchalant.

I doubt they'd care what the youngest Cousland did as long as he produced an heir and didn't shame his wife.

[Ryzaki]

Also I have to laugh at whoever calls Fergus sexist. Clearly you haven't played the FHN origin often.

His reaction to his sister saying she wished she could go with him? "I wish you could to. It'd be fun fighting by your side." nothing patronizing and with respect for his sister's skills. It's his wife who's more shocked about the FHN fighting. (and Howe but...Howe's a douche. Him being sexist is just one more aspect of his doucheness).There's no mockery or shock at the thought of her becoming a grey warden (and indeed he mentions that duncan wouldn't overlock her). When she mentions someone in her bed his reaction is protective but not patronizing.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juin 2012 - 09:08 .

[Hayllee]

Wynne- While I like some of her qualities, she seems very wishy-washy. "Oh, my lady, I'm sorry your family died. I had no idea... poor dear..." Later- "Oh, by the way, you're just an emotionless vessel of destruction, you can't hold titles and have personal relationships. Stop it." And then her attitude towards Ines in awakening... the woman doesn't like mage politics, okay Wynne? Leave her to her plants, they don't preach at her.

Vaughn- I hate him far more than I hate Howe. Howe seems to have a potential back story- not good enough to justify slaughtering everyone he dislikes and being nasty, but still- a chance at a psychological reason other than "HA EVIIIIL". Vaughn, on the other hand, takes what he wants, kills whoever (well, his soldiers do the killing we see, but you know...), rapes- a product of an over-privileged life combined with being a complete bastard. I reload in the city elf origin if I don't decapitate him.

Velanna- Nathaniel calls her pretty and not my warden. Bull crap. Also, she's a terrible person for no good reason. Morrigan is nicer than her.

Isolde- Typical dependent noble wife, but that voice... that screeching voice... voice actor did a good job.

Eamon kind of gets on my nerves too, but I don't really know why.

[Gallimatia]

Bhryaen wrote...

9. Isolde. She's really the epitome of the "weak woman" role that one can see in old movies where the actress's part is one of a hapless twit who screws up everything she touches due to her over-emotional nature while failing to maintain any effective self-criticism on the matter. It's an annoying enough role from the old movie genre, but the writers did a very good job writing that type into her NPC. Her accent doesn’t bother me in the least and is at least fairly consistent- just her hysterics-should-persuade-you approach to everything.

She's unpleasant as long as her kid is alive and in danger. Presumably because she's desperately looking for ways to protect him. If you knock her out and kill him she's more agreeable when she wakes up again.

"I'm sorry. Much of this is my fault. I... do not hold you responsible for any of it. Go in peace, and do what you must."