239 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...yes yes they would.

Unless you're telling me Ashley, Kaidan, Wrex, and Garrus have no personalities.

It doesn't create the personality entirely, however it expands greatly upon it. Jack wouldn't be the same if we didn't see her tattoos and such. It wouldn't be giving the same impact of the character, Jack wouldn't be the same Jack.

[Ryzaki]

Maria Caliban wrote...


It doesn't give personality, it expresses personality. And the point of a uniform is to encourage and express uniformity. Uniforms, especially military dress, are a great example of how people use clothing to express something.

It also adds to a character's uniqueness because *characters aren't people.* Any personality we perceive is artifice.

Take Darth Vader. His clothing was distinctive, memorable, and gave a strong first impression. The Imperial March is distinctive, memorable, and gives us a strong first impression.

If you gave Vader a regular officer's uniform and changed the music to something like this. You've changed the character because you've changed the perception of the character.

Changing the music is changing the entire theme. And his entire character is based around the fact that (it's to hide the burns is it not) the same doesn't hold true for the ME2 squad. (With the exception of Jack).

So once again. Unless they're wearnig those clothes to disguise features I'm not seeing any characterization along with it.

And they can express personality just as well by opening their mouths. Most of the time a lot more effectively. Miranda's outfit told me nothing about her. Neither did Thane's, Garrus' or nearly anyone else in the ME2 crew with the exception of Jack. And the only thing it told me about her was that she was a rebel and she had a lot of scars.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:09 .

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

It doesn't create the personality entirely, however it expands greatly upon it. Jack wouldn't be the same if we didn't see her tattoos and such. It wouldn't be giving the same impact of the character, Jack wouldn't be the same Jack.

And Jack is clearly an exception rather than the rule. Her body is adorned not only with tattoos but scars that show the pain she's been through. I highly doubt everyone in the DA2 cast is going to have scars or markings that are unique and need to be shown.

And Jack wouldn't be the same? So if she had expanded dialogue and scenes where you could see her pain and torment you wouldn't understand the pain and suffering she's been through because she's not wearing certain clothes?

...I guess it's personal preference...which is something I suppose really can't be argued.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:09 .

[GodWood]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh...yes yes they would.
Unless you're telling me Ashley, Kaidan, Wrex, and Garrus have no personalities.

It doesn't create the personality entirely, however it expands greatly upon it. Jack wouldn't be the same if we didn't see her tattoos and such. It wouldn't be giving the same impact of the character, Jack wouldn't be the same Jack.

I disagree.
Jack could still wear her iconic outfit on the Normandy during conversations allowing the player to see her tattoos and that part of her character but off the Normandy she could be in combat appropriate attire. 

[Hukari]

I think the two posters above me have captured the logical flaw of using Jack as representative of 'clothes add to character'. It wasn't her clothes that added to the character; it was her tattoos. She could have been nude, instead of her boobstraps, and it would have made as much difference as a butterfly farting in a hurricane. Apologies, I love my colourful metaphors.



Anyhow, I think this is a bit of a backwards step for the series. I mean, we're the leader of the party; if we can mold our companion members through dialogue, why can't we do the same thing with fashion? For instance, the first thing I did on reaching Lothering was to make Morrigan put on some clothes. I altered her from a swamp witch living in the woods like some sort of Bear Grylls hobo, and let her be more of a party member. Eventually, due to Arcane Warrior specialization, she was wearing plate. Changing character armor -can- show growth and change.



Would it have held that same sort of impact if, after becoming an Arcane Warrior, she still looked like a swamp witch that had crawled out from behind a craggy ruin? I think not. I say, let us be our own cinematic directors; we know what we want our stories to be, in essence. We could decide that we're going to practice the art of Naked Ninjutsu, and y'know, that could be our story. So why restrict it, beyond deadlines?



And, to mention another thread... yes. If you have to take the time to make something happen, -take- it. I'm already amazed enough that it's four months away, considering how recent DA:O and DA:A are. I think myself and a good portion of these forums wouldn't mind waiting another month to see it tidied up or having features added back in.

[ViSeiRa]

GodWood wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh...yes yes they would.
Unless you're telling me Ashley, Kaidan, Wrex, and Garrus have no personalities.

It doesn't create the personality entirely, however it expands greatly upon it. Jack wouldn't be the same if we didn't see her tattoos and such. It wouldn't be giving the same impact of the character, Jack wouldn't be the same Jack.

I disagree.
Jack could still wear her iconic outfit on the Normandy during conversations allowing the player to see her tattoos and that part of her character but off the Normandy she could be in combat appropriate attire. 

Exactly my thoughts, you can't judge people by what they wear but you can complement your judjement by observing their style of clothing, take Garrus for example.... when he comes to female Shepard in the last scene before the Omega 4 Relay he is not wearing his armor, would have that been so hard to implement across all the scenes aboard the normandy? instead of spending the time doing 2 unique companion outfits that has nothing to do with combat, they could have made one for the normandy scenes and an armor for the missions and  it'd have been perfect, the same applies to DA2.

[GodWood]

Hukari wrote...
Anyhow, I think this is a bit of a backwards step for the series. I mean, we're the leader of the party; if we can mold our companion members through dialogue, why can't we do the same thing with fashion? For instance, the first thing I did on reaching Lothering was to make Morrigan put on some clothes. I altered her from a swamp witch living in the woods like some sort of Bear Grylls hobo, and let her be more of a party member. Eventually, due to Arcane Warrior specialization, she was wearing plate. Changing character armor -can- show growth and change.

I always figured when you armour your companions, it wasn't the PC's character telling them what to wear but the character armouring themself (just you as the player get to choose)
It is a party based RPG after all.

Modifié par GodWood, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:18 .

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

And Jack is clearly an exception rather than the rule. Her body is adorned not only with tattoos but scars that show the pain she's been through. I highly doubt everyone in the DA2 cast is going to have scars or markings that are unique and need to be shown.

Don't think I need to explain Jack.
---
Legion's bodytype with the hole and such added backstory, expanded the character a little further and made him stand out. Legion wouldn't be really well loved if he was just a reskinned Geth Trooper. The whole "facial flaps" he has also expands further on the character.
---
Grunt's look appears more cybernetic and greater, giving him a more youthful look amongst the other Krogan we encounter, fitting considering his story. If Grunt has his helmet equipped, he stands out amongst the other Krogan and you can immediately say "That's Grunt".
---
Miranda's look essentially defines femme fatale, she wouldn't look like that if she wore basic Onyx Armor IV.
---
Mordin's outfit made him appear to be between a doctor and scientist with that of a fighter, would you still look upon Mordin as a doctor / scientist if he was wearing the basic Salarian armor design?
---
Would Samara appear as a mythical powerful Justicar if she wore the basic armor that every other Asari wears? Would you stand there and go "There's a person of influence" if she approached you casually? Samara's armor makes her appear more distinct with the facial armor thingies and the armor having very distinct markings upon it.
---
I can't say anything about Tali without being involved with anti-Tali bias.
---
Thane was to be a bad boy, I never really payed attention to him as I had no interest in the character.

[Ryzaki]

GodWood wrote...

I always figured when you armour your companions, it wasn't the PC's character telling them what to wear but the character armouring themself (just you as the player get to choose)
It is a party based RPG after all.

I always saw i that way as well. (Which is why Morrigan never had any mage apprentice/senior enchanter robes equipped in my games) I could practically hear her snarl when I thought about it.

[Maria Caliban]

Ryzaki wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...


It doesn't give personality, it expresses personality. And the point of a uniform is to encourage and express uniformity. Uniforms, especially military dress, are a great example of how people use clothing to express something.

It also adds to a character's uniqueness because *characters aren't people.* Any personality we perceive is artifice.

Take Darth Vader. His clothing was distinctive, memorable, and gave a strong first impression. The Imperial March is distinctive, memorable, and gives us a strong first impression.

If you gave Vader a regular officer's uniform and changed the music to something like this. You've changed the character because you've changed the perception of the character.

Changing the music is changing the entire theme. And his entire character is based around the fact that (it's to hide the burns is it not) the same doesn't hold true for the ME2 squad. (With the exception of Jack).

Right. Music conveys an attitude and atmosphere. So do visuals.

So once again. Unless they're wearnig those clothes to disguise features I'm not seeing any characterization along with it.

All clothing covers 'features.' I'm going to assume that you've never gone naked in public as an adult. If that's true, it's probably because there are parts of your anatomy that you don't want strangers to see and that strangers don't want to see.

The basic function of clothing is to cover and protect.

How about these two?


Does their clothing indicate anything about their character?

What about these ones?






Now, it's possible that you see the above images and thing all the men have the same personality, skills, and character. I'd suggest that the majority of people would quickly be able to say that the incredibly buff dude in the loin cloth with the lion as cloak might be a bit different than the skinny guy in the labcoat with the wild grey hair.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:21 .

[Hukari]

Ah, Dave of Canada, but that raises the question; what about the armor DLC? Does that utterly destroy the character by allowing them to change? Samara's armor was pretty much the standard Asari suit, just unzipped at the front. Grunt's -was- basic Krogan armor, he just didn't use the helmet. Which, I'll admit, is a fair point; leaving the face open is an important part of a character's development. But that's why in DA:O, it vanished when you talked to them. (Also, ME2 characters need someplace to store Collector missiles.

In essence, it wasn't the clothes that made the character, but vice versa. As the characters grew, they changed; heck, Jack even puts on a shirt that hides her tattoos.

Edit: And to Maria Caliban above, I would agree. But note that when you described the visuals, you also described their physical features. The grey hair, skinny features, and lab coat tacked on. Would the character not be a mad scientist if he ditched the lab coat for, say, a 19th century suit? I don't think so; the character itself would remain, the physical features, even though the clothes shifted.

Edit Zwei: And another thing that popped into my head (Forgive my scatterbrainedness, midnight does that to me), is that we -should- be able to change the tone of characters. After all, we're the party leader, through our dialogue we -are- changing our party member's attitudes. In DA:O we could convince Alistair that the world wasn't a land of pretty pink ponies, and that Leliana really was a murderess. We could convince Oghren to be a responsible parent, and Sten to recognize the strength in other cultures. We are a molding force for those characters; using your example, would it make sense for Darth Vader to still wear the bulky armour and dark-side corruption when he shows up as a Force Ghost? No, because his character had changed and evolved.

Modifié par Hukari, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:26 .

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Don't think I need to explain Jack

No you don't because she is the only human like member that's excuseable.

Legion's bodytype with the hole and such added backstory, expanded the character a little further and made him stand out. Legion wouldn't be really well loved if he was just a reskinned Geth Trooper. The whole "facial flaps" he has also expands further on the character.

Legion...is a geth. A machine. An enemy type at that. I don't really count him. He has to look unique. (Lord knows how many times I've wasted bullets shooting at him before I noticed the hole). That said non game mechanics wise the hole does make sense in the storyline (not too sure why it was never fixed...) that said it does give a snippet into Legion's personality but not anything that you couldn't have found out by talking to him. (Or him repairing himself later after the DR incidient). 

Grunt's look appears more cybernetic and greater, giving him a more youthful look amongst the other Krogan we encounter, fitting considering his story. If Grunt has his helmet equipped, he stands out amongst the other Krogan and you can immediately say "That's Grunt".

And this has to do with clothes...how exactly? Grunt being smaller than other Krogan has nothing to do with not wearing armor. (And frankly I found his exposed arms to be extremely silly).

Miranda's look essentially defines femme fatale, she wouldn't look like that if she wore basic Onyx Armor IV.

Miranda isn't a femme fatale at all though. Not in the least bit. She look like something that isn't in character at all. She's shown to be an extremely practical woman. And yet she prances around in battle in a skintight suit and heels? 

Mordin's outfit made him appear to be between a doctor and scientist with that of a fighter, would you still look upon Mordin as a doctor / scientist if he was wearing the basic Salarian armor design?

He's supposed to be a member of a STG and yes I'd still buy him as being a doctor if he was wearing armor. Mordin's voice would be coming of it no? 

Would Samara appear as a mythical powerful Justicar if she wore the basic armor that every other Asari wears? Would you stand there and go "There's a person of influence" if she approached you casually? Samara's armor makes her appear more distinct with the facial armor thingies and the armor having very distinct markings upon it.

Yes actually I would. Her face for one thing is unique as is her body language and mannerisms.

---
I can't say anything about Tali without being involved with anti-Tali bias.
---
Thane was to be a bad boy, I never really payed attention to him as I had no interest in the character.

...And I say the same about Thane. All of those arguements in my mind mean nothing. They still would've been them even without the clothing.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Ryzaki]

@Maria: You're giving me a variety of different people and asking me to compare them. Of course they're different. If loincloth guy put on some heavy armor though he'd still be himself. Just in different armor.

You're basically saying when Clark Kent puts on a suit he's not superman anymore.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[ViSeiRa]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And Jack is clearly an exception rather than the rule. Her body is adorned not only with tattoos but scars that show the pain she's been through. I highly doubt everyone in the DA2 cast is going to have scars or markings that are unique and need to be shown.

Don't think I need to explain Jack.
---
Legion's bodytype with the hole and such added backstory, expanded the character a little further and made him stand out. Legion wouldn't be really well loved if he was just a reskinned Geth Trooper. The whole "facial flaps" he has also expands further on the character.
---
Grunt's look appears more cybernetic and greater, giving him a more youthful look amongst the other Krogan we encounter, fitting considering his story. If Grunt has his helmet equipped, he stands out amongst the other Krogan and you can immediately say "That's Grunt".
---
Miranda's look essentially defines femme fatale, she wouldn't look like that if she wore basic Onyx Armor IV.
---
Mordin's outfit made him appear to be between a doctor and scientist with that of a fighter, would you still look upon Mordin as a doctor / scientist if he was wearing the basic Salarian armor design?
---
Would Samara appear as a mythical powerful Justicar if she wore the basic armor that every other Asari wears? Would you stand there and go "There's a person of influence" if she approached you casually? Samara's armor makes her appear more distinct with the facial armor thingies and the armor having very distinct markings upon it.
---
I can't say anything about Tali without being involved with anti-Tali bias.
---
Thane was to be a bad boy, I never really payed attention to him as I had no interest in the character.

Because Jack didn't wear anything to begin with.
-----
Legion is a unique geth platform, he isn't a geth trooper to begin with so he'd be unique in design anyway.
-----
Really? Grunt had a different armor mesh and textures, that's all, I wouldn't see any difference if he was wearing Battlemaster X armor from ME1, he didn't look like all Krogan because he was tank bred and didn't carry the mutations in the Krogan species that happened after the nuclear winter in Tutchanka.
-----
Femme Fatale? now you're using marketing phrases, yeah it gave her a unique look "aboard" the Normandy, in combat she looked ridiculous and out of place.
-----
But Mordin isn't just a doctor, he also had light weapons training with the STG, did they forget about this part of his personality or they chose clothing that only represents only one defining trait of it?
-----
Yes she would, and what Samara wore wasn't armor by any means, she looked like someone who just came out from a latex magazine....make of that what you will

Modifié par ViSeirA, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:34 .

[Dave of Canada]

Hukari wrote...

Ah, Dave of Canada, but that raises the question; what about the armor DLC?

Aside from Garrus, I'd say no. The Jack DLC outfit is about as revealing as the second usual outfit and the Thane one still makes him look like a bad boy.

Samara's armor was pretty much the standard Asari suit, just unzipped at the front.

*can't find any decent of a normal Asari, they tend to be upper shots*

Even if zipped, it appears more like a Samurai-esque armor, more mystical than the average Asari. This fits the whole Justicar and their position in Asari culture. If she looked like... an eclipse merc but without the logo on the armor, she wouldn't be giving off that same wave.

Grunt's -was- basic Krogan armor, he just didn't use the helmet.

Grunt's armor appears more science fictionesque, less gritty and more like a showroom armor that one would show off as being the "latest model". It fits his character as he's supposed to be the superior Krogan, new and born of science.

In essence, it wasn't the clothes that made the character, but vice versa. As the characters grew, they changed; heck, Jack even puts on a shirt that hides her tattoos.

A vest, most of her tattoos still remained. I'd understand if she was completely covered up.

With that, I'm off to bed for the night. It's 3:30 and I got class in the morning.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:29 .

[Aermas]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I still fail to see how clothes somehow give personality.

...Probably because I wore uniform until I was in high school.

Would Jack from ME2 still be Jack if she wore normal armor? 
Would Thane?
Would... ect.

In addition to all of this, these unique models give way for unique animations.

Yes I always confused Morrigan & Wynne because I put them both in Tevinter Robes.

Seriously, that is your angle?

Do you know how many people wear jeans & a T-shirt? & guess what, they are all different people all with different personalities.

Modifié par Aermas, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Dave of Canada]

Aermas wrote...

Yes I always confused Morrigan & Wynne because I put them both in Tevinter Robes.

Seriously, that is your angle?

Do you know how many people wear jeans & a T-shirt? & guess what, they are all different people all with different personalities.

Last post before bed as it'll be a short one instead of answering both above uber-posts (I did read them though).

If Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine wore jeans and a t shirt, would you sit there and go "OH THAT PERSON LOOKS IMPORTANT!"? You'd be lying if you said you did. Their outfits essentially define the character, Vader wouldn't be Vader without the outfit.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:34 .

[Maria Caliban]

Hukari wrote...

Edit: And to Maria Caliban above, I would agree. But note that when you described the visuals, you also described their physical features. The grey hair, skinny features, and lab coat tacked on. Would the character not be a mad scientist if he ditched the lab coat for, say, a 19th century suit? I don't think so; the character itself would remain, the physical features, even though the clothes shifted.

If you stuck lab coat guy in a 19th century suit, he'd no longer be a scientist unless you retained the beakers or added some other scientific contraption.

Likewise, you could change the buff guy to a fat guy or a regular guy, but if you kept the loin cloth, weapon, and animal skin, you'd retain some of the character.

A character is an amalgamation of everything used to express that character. Appearance is one aspect and in visual media it's an important one.

Aermas wrote...

Do you know how many people wear jeans & a T-shirt? & guess what, they are all different people all with different personalities.

Characters are not people. Characters have no innate personality, skill, abilities, or desires. All those aspects are artifice given to them by their creator(s).

People have innate personality, skills, abilities, and desires, so you don't need to express them for them to exist.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:38 .

[Ryzaki]

So...the lab coat guy loses his knowledge, experiences and personality because his clothes changed?

Huh. Strange that. I wore a dress yesterday and wasn't more feminine than I was wearing jeans. Guess I'm a freak.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Vader wouldn't be Vader because Vader is supposed to have been severely burned. So either with the burns exposed or hidden as they are he would be the same character.

Nice calling me a liar. The only reason you think the outfit defines them is because you've seen them in nothing else.

Emperor Palpatine wearing jeans and a t-shirt wouldn't make sense becuse it would break the whole setting. Him wearing different robes on the other hand would make perfect sense.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:40 .

[Maria Caliban]

Ryzaki wrote...

So...the lab coat guy loses his knowledge, experiences and personality because his clothes changed?

Yes, because it never really existed. Only the expression of it did.

Huh. Strange that. I wore a dress yesterday and wasn't more feminine than I was wearing jeans. Guess I'm a freak.

No, you are a person. You exist. You have knowledge, experience, and personality. The man in the lab coat has none.

[ProfessionalPirate]

Ryzaki wrote...

So...the lab coat guy loses his knowledge, experiences and personality because his clothes changed?

Huh. Strange that. I wore a dress yesterday and wasn't more feminine than I was wearing jeans. Guess I'm a freak.

Ya, his personality remains, but if you put him in a pirate outfit, your perception of him will change. You don't look at someone wearing colorful, and flamboyant jackets and thin "ohhh look, he's clearly a mad scientest"

[Hukari]

And yet, the man in the lab coat is meant to represent a facsimile of a person for the purposes of the story. Unless he's some sort of robot, or a coat-based superhero. He has to have knowledge, experience, and personality to him regardless of what he is wearing. Otherwise he's a walking mannequin, no?

Edit: And you're right, we don't. Until we engage them in dialogue, or in actions. Perceptions fade fast, while actions are a system of permanence. Loghain in Dragon Age Origins wore armour that you picked up as random loot, and hardly had any distinguishing features. He was still General Loghain, and he had all that personality and characterization behind him; not because of his armour, but because of his knowledge, experience, and personality.

Modifié par Hukari, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:43 .

[Ryzaki]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yes, because it never really existed. Only the expression of it did.

So it was just a picture of a guy who looked like a scientist? He never actually was one? Because in that case it wouldn't matter what he wore he would never be an actual scientist. Merely pretending to be one.

No, you are a person. You exist. You have knowledge, experience, and personality. The man in the lab coat has none.

So the DA character's have no knowledge, experience or personalities? 


Like I said. Clark Kent in a suit is still Superman.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[Aermas]

 The president of the United States wears a suit & tie, so does every businessman in the world, how is he different? Should he wear tights & a cape? No.

Tell me that these two men have the same personality because they are dressed the same