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[Ryzaki]

Anarya wrote...

It tells you what kind of genius he is. The eccentric kind who's so focused on his genius that he neglects even himself. Which I would argue is pretty definitive and useful.

I agree that in isolation it does not present a complete picture.

That's my whole point. Without L speaking you don't know he's a genius so you just see a weird guy in clothing. (And you don't think L's actions alone tell you he's pretty eccentric? The fact that he doesn't sleep most of the time? The fact that he's so obsessed with sweets [doesn't even eat real food] and Kira?)  Without seeing his interactions with Light you never learn the full extent of his eccentricness. Nor his brilliance. 

And honestly I'm not fond of the clothing gimmick. I've had enough of it in JRPGs and they're even starting to let you change outfits now. I can't help but think of it as a serious step back. I'm not asking for barbie dolls but one outfit? Sheesh. They could at least change outfits every couple of years.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[AntiChri5]

And is Miranda one of them? 

A hot chick who kills people? Yes.

Is not one of the main traits of a femme fatale someone who uses the hero and manipulates him? Usually to his doom unwittingly or otherwise (the female not the male). Where does Miranda do that? Not once is Shepard placed in danger due to Miranda. Femme Fatales are called fatal females because they lead men to their doom via seduction, pretending to be in distress (i.e. manipulation) or dragging him into her (dangerous) baggage. Not because they're good at combat. They can be but that's not a necessity.



Miranda is capable, holds her own, never relies on Shep, and never tries to seduce him. I fail to see how she's a femme fatale.

I said before, there are a lot of different definitions, and interpretations that can be applied.



Is Jack a psycopath?

[Anarya]

Ryzaki wrote...

Anarya wrote...

It tells you what kind of genius he is. The eccentric kind who's so focused on his genius that he neglects even himself. Which I would argue is pretty definitive and useful.

I agree that in isolation it does not present a complete picture.

That's my whole point. Without L speaking you don't know he's a genius so you just see a weird guy in clothing. (And you don't think L's actions alone tell you he's pretty eccentric? The fact that he doesn't sleep most of the time? The fact that he's so obsessed with sweets [doesn't even eat real food] and Kira?)

Sure. It's part of the whole picture. But it's a different kind of eccentric genius that always dresses in impeccable, expensive clothing and one who dresses in whatever's lying around and doesn't even bother with shoes.

[ViSeiRa]

Hukari wrote...

... as a bonus, it took us six pages before the word 'streamline' got brought into the conversation. I think all of us should give ourselves a pat on the back for that one, actually. This has been quite enjoyable!

Indeed it was 

[Ryzaki]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I said before, there are a lot of different definitions, and interpretations that can be applied.

*sighs* We don't agree on the definition. IF a hot chick who kills people is a femme fatale that makes nearly every single female lead in literature who fights a femme fatale which is ridculous. It's like the RPG is any game in which you play a role debate. I'm going to stop this now if you want to continue this head over to the Miranda thread.

Is Jack a psycopath?

Psycopaths lack the ability to feel regret. Jack does regret some of the things she's done. So no.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 10:05 .

[Sir JK]

Hukari wrote...

Perhaps; but I would argue that it still is used as a crutch in that regard. Going to the examples before, I would almost prefer something that -hinders- the perception of the character being automatic, as a subversion to show the depth. Again, the hobo citing Shakespeare in a posh accent is a good example, because it raises questions. "Where did he learn that?" "Who is he?" "What is he about?" "What is he doing here?"

This is exactly what good costumisation does though. The fact that he's wearing rags gives you a certain impression of him, and that he's reciting Shakespeare in a posh accent another. Both in combination makes him stand out as odd. Makes your curious and want to learn more. His outfit is in fact telling you something about him: That there is more to him that meets your eyes.

Take the same man. Give him a theater costume and place him on a stage. Now you have a entirely different impression and the Shakespeare recitation fits that impression. Not nearly as odd as the first example. He's more or less what you'd expect. There might still be more to him than meets the eyes however.
Good costumisation adds to characterisation.

[Hukari]

First, let me say one thing... yeah, I thought as much. Ah well, it's costume design, writing, directing, and a whole slew of others that make video games the multimedia platform they are today. We each have different opinions due to the fact that we come from different directions, different tastes, and different backgrounds. Not to say either one is wrong, but I think we're slowly approaching the understanding and middle-ground solution that would satisfy all parties.



Now, to Maria Caliban, I argue that a good character is one that can pass for human. And there is something to be said for 'reality' in writing. After all, what are journals if not reality condensed? And yet, the writings of Marco Polo are some of the best selling in history. There needs to be the facsimile that these are human beings we're talking of, rather than robots or cardboard cutouts. They need to have dimensions to them. Admittedly, we don't need to know how many times they went to the bathroom as a 6th grader if it has no influence on the story; but we need to understand personality, goals, dreams, ambitions, knowledge... things of that nature, those basic shreds that make up who we (and, by extension, characters) are.

[Herr Uhl]

Lukas Kristjanson wrote...

Besides, as far as I’m concerned, no one gets away with the “it’s unrealistic no one changes clothes” argument unless they want to confront the horrible realities of full plate and the fact that medieval knights couldn’t just plop it into inventory when they wanted to go to the bathroom. Imagine your party after a single day walking around in armour, the smell, just... wafting across the camp, with its little communal washbasin, while Leliana tries to sing.

Yet another reason to play mages.

[Ryzaki]

Anarya wrote...

Sure. It's part of the whole picture. But it's a different kind of eccentric genius that always dresses in impeccable, expensive clothing and one who dresses in whatever's lying around and doesn't even bother with shoes.

That is true. But his characterization wouldn't have suffered from him wearing no shirt and holey jeans, or stained shirt and torn jeans instead of the loose (and always clean for some reason) white shirt and jeans. It would've been the same message. That's the thing with clothing it can vary.

And that's all I want really. Some variation.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 10:04 .

[GodWood]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Is Jack a psycopath?

Not at all

[Anarya]

Ryzaki wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Sure. It's part of the whole picture. But it's a different kind of eccentric genius that always dresses in impeccable, expensive clothing and one who dresses in whatever's lying around and doesn't even bother with shoes.

That is true. But his characterization wouldn't have suffered from him wearing no shirt and holey jeans, or stained shirt and torn jeans instead of the loose (and always clean for some reason) white shirt and jeans. It would've been the same message. That's the thing with clothing.

I agree, but those are all the same type of clothing (except for the staining) that say the same thing. You might have missed it on the previous page but I said I never argued that companions should be locked into one outfit. I would prefer multiple character-appropriate outfits, myself.  

Oh and as a sidenote, psychopaths can feel regret, just for different reasons. If a psychopath murders someone and goes to prison for it, he might regret killing the person because he is now being punished for it. The psychopath would not feel regret out of any sort of caring for his victim.

That said, Jack is not a psychopath. I don't mean to single your posts out specifically, Ryzaki. I just find psychology pretty interesting, is all.

Modifié par Anarya, 19 novembre 2010 - 10:07 .

[Hukari]

A lot of good points made from the costumization crowd... but I think I've found something that might sate us all. I think we can all agree that one or two outfits total is far too restrictive, and doesn't represent the growth of the character as a person and through the plotline. However, unrestricted costumization means that the representation loses it's effect on the story, and they might as well go naked (Which, in the case of Isabela, might not be such a bad idea).



Thus, I would pose... what I think a good compromise for both sides would be maybe 6-8 different outfits, but which stick to a theme. Perhaps one outfit is unlocked due to our choice to either be a rival or a companion, or something like that. Something that would truly represent her character (or subversion thereof). For example, the bandana always showing up on Isabela's costume, or at least the majority of them. The rest of the costume can change, but still keep the same theme.



What do you all think? Does that seem like an effective middle ground?

[Ryzaki]

Anarya wrote...

I agree, but those are all the same type of clothing that say the same thing. You might have missed it on the previous page but I said I never argued that companions should be locked into one outfit. I would prefer multiple character-appropriate outfits, myself.  

Oh my bad. I would likemore than one outfit personally as well.

(Not directed to quoted poster)

I hope we don't have the opportunity to completely change character's personalities now.

Since they're iconic looks are so important after all

Sorry couldn't help the snark.

Though yesthe 6-8 outfits would be nice. I doubt'll happen but it would be nice.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 10:08 .

[AntiChri5]

*sighs* We don't agree on the definition. IF a hot chick who kills people is a femme fatale that makes nearly every single female lead in literature who fights a femme fatale which is ridculous.

The actual dictionary definition is so broad it can be applied to at least half the women in fiction.

Psycopaths lack the ability to feel regret. Jack does regret some of the things she's done. So no.

She isn't. Agreed.

And yet, BioWare advertised her as such.

Why do you think this was?

[Ryzaki]

AntiChri5 wrote...


The actual dictionary definition is so broad it can be applied to at least half the women in fiction.

She isn't. Agreed.
And yet, BioWare advertised her as such.
Why do you think this was?

For the same reason they claimed Miranda was a femme fatale. They thought it gave the character ore "oomph" even if it didn't fit the character at all. Marketing speak is mostly gibberish anyays. <_< Asari are asexual *grumbles angrily about how people should read their own codexes*

[ViSeiRa]

Hukari wrote...

A lot of good points made from the costumization crowd... but I think I've found something that might sate us all. I think we can all agree that one or two outfits total is far too restrictive, and doesn't represent the growth of the character as a person and through the plotline. However, unrestricted costumization means that the representation loses it's effect on the story, and they might as well go naked (Which, in the case of Isabela, might not be such a bad idea).

Thus, I would pose... what I think a good compromise for both sides would be maybe 6-8 different outfits, but which stick to a theme. Perhaps one outfit is unlocked due to our choice to either be a rival or a companion, or something like that. Something that would truly represent her character (or subversion thereof). For example, the bandana always showing up on Isabela's costume, or at least the majority of them. The rest of the costume can change, but still keep the same theme.

What do you all think? Does that seem like an effective middle ground?

No one would ever oppose that, that was exactly what should have been done, but of course a lot of people would argue that time/budget constraints still apply here.

[Anarya]

As I understand it, there won't be "hardening" of personality. You will be able to change how a companion feels about a central issue instead. So no, you can't completely change a personality (though I would argue that Leli and Alistair were still essentially the same personality after being hardened).

[Ortaya Alevli]

Ryzaki wrote...

Asari are asexual

Huh?

[Sir JK]

Hukari wrote...

A lot of good points made from the costumization crowd... but I think I've found something that might sate us all. I think we can all agree that one or two outfits total is far too restrictive, and doesn't represent the growth of the character as a person and through the plotline. However, unrestricted costumization means that the representation loses it's effect on the story, and they might as well go naked (Which, in the case of Isabela, might not be such a bad idea).

Thus, I would pose... what I think a good compromise for both sides would be maybe 6-8 different outfits, but which stick to a theme. Perhaps one outfit is unlocked due to our choice to either be a rival or a companion, or something like that. Something that would truly represent her character (or subversion thereof). For example, the bandana always showing up on Isabela's costume, or at least the majority of them. The rest of the costume can change, but still keep the same theme.

What do you all think? Does that seem like an effective middle ground?

I think that's what everyone would want. Even more perhaps. However... there's one glaring flaw.

It's easier said then done.
It's not a practical solution due to the resources needed. No matter how much we want it, it would have to come at the cost of something else. At best I think it's something we could expect as DLC. But other than that it's a lofty dream. Sadly

[Monica83]

Hey people don't be sad maybe they will make a DLC with the option to interact with companion inventory!!! *sarcastic*

[Ryzaki]

Anarya wrote...

As I understand it, there won't be "hardening" of personality. You will be able to change how a companion feels about a central issue instead. So no, you can't completely change a personality (though I would argue that Leli and Alistair were still essentially the same personality after being hardened).

Changing how someone feels about a central outlook is changing a whole lot depending on what that central outlook is. 

Granted they're still the same but they're now ruthless enough to realize the world isn't all sunshine nd roses (in alistair's case anyways)and Leliana gives into to her darker nature. I would say that is enough of a change to consitute different clothing. (Particulary if they were waring "iconic" clothing to start with).

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Asari are asexual

Huh?

Exactly. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 10:12 .

[Herr Uhl]

Monica83 wrote...

Hey people don't be sad maybe they will make a DLC with the option to interact with companion inventory!!! *sarcastic*

It is a shared inventory.

[Anarya]

Ryzaki wrote...

Anarya wrote...

As I understand it, there won't be "hardening" of personality. You will be able to change how a companion feels about a central issue instead. So no, you can't completely change a personality (though I would argue that Leli and Alistair were still essentially the same personality after being hardened).

Changing how someone feels about a central outlook is changing a whole lot depending on what that central outlook is. 

Granted they're still the same but they're now ruthless enough to realize the world isn't all sunshine nd roses (in alistair's case anyways)and Leliana gives into to her darker nature. I would say that is enough of a change to consitute different clothing. (Particulary if they were waring "iconic" clothing to start with).

Sure, absolutely. And in a movie or something, they would have a changed look (like the infamous emo Peter Parker in Spiderman 3).

[Hukari]

Aye, perhaps it is a bit late in the game to be speaking of such a compromise. However, I personally am actually surprised at the speed with which they've come out with DA2. I was expecting a couple year's wait, so being so close to each other, it's surprising. But I digress...



Even altering that core personality to become the rival/companion might be worthy of a shift. As a rival, they get a bit harder, a bit rougher, a bit more competitive to get you... and so they, too, get a little rougher around the edges. Maybe they stud the leather they have, rather than leaving it plain or embroidered. Something akin to that.



Anyhow. I can only speak for me in this regard, but I wouldn't mind them putting it off another month or two to re-design this aspect. It seems like it would be a smash hit with the community, at least.

[Ryzaki]

Anarya wrote...

Sure, absolutely. And in a movie or something, they would have a changed look (like the infamous emo Peter Parker in Spiderman 3).

Oh god I was laughing so hard when I saw him change. I was like "really? Really? That suit made him emo? Why?!?"