92 réponses à ce sujet

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Ok. I just completed a paragon playthrough of ME2. As I usually play renegade, one thing that bothers me is the lack of variety in teammate reaction to the Collector Base decision. It strikes me that many of the characters are out of character when they deliver there opinions. I want to give what I think should have been the reactions of the teammates based on this scale:

1 = Hates the decision
2 = Disapproves but trusts Shepard's judgement
3 = Completely indifferent
4 = Approves with some qualms
5 = Approves wholeheartedly

I want to scale what I thought should be the reactions of each teammate for both decisions.

Mordin 

Destroy - 2
Keep - 4

Mordin is one of the more disappointing. The scientist who works extensively with the genophage does not think the base should be studied? I found this to be out of character personally.

Jacob 

Destroy - 2
Keep - 4

Jacob doesn't really have strong opinions on just about anything. It's pretty clear, however, that he respects what Cerberus does and is invested in Cerberus' success. His disapproval was a little surprising (but not that much).

Miranda 

Destroy - 1
Keep - 5

This one irritated me probably the most. She completely defends Cerberus the entire game (aside from the paragon end scene, which I thought was crazy). She should be furious that Shepard destroyed the base.

Garrus 

Destroy - 5
Keep - 2

Garrus is a Turian, so he probably wouldn't be too happy with Cerberus getting awesome tech. He usually bows to Shepard's wishes though. He should be happy if the base is destroyed (which oddly enough he doesn't mention it as paragon, IIRC).

Legion 

Destroy - 5
Keep - 2

Legion's whole "use your own technology" view I personally find to be unbelievable, but as the character was presented, he would be happy about the destroyed base. He would also respect Shepard's judgement enough to not freak out about keeping it.

Samara 

Destroy - 3
Keep - 3

I found here strong opinions to be somewhat out of character. Despite her code, she personally sees morality to be very much gray (respect for Morinth, Nihlus, etc.). Also, she doesn't seem to concern herself with inter-special sociopolitical activities, so I would see her being neutral (or maybe a 2,2 or 4,4).

Thane 

Destroy - 3
Keep - 3

Another character that is quite silent about Cerberus and galactic politics that all of a sudden doesn't want the base to go to Cerberus. I see him as being neutral.

Tali'Zorah vas Normandy nar Rayya 

Destroy - 5
Keep - 2

She is no fan of Cerberus and is quite open about it. She also is star-struck with Shepard and wouldn't disagree with him too harshly.

Urdnot Grunt 

Destroy - 3
Keep - 3

Ok, I see no reason why he should have any sort of opinion on this matter. All he does is talk about killing sh*t the entire game. Then, when it comes to Collector Base time, he has strong opinions on the matter. This makes no sense to me.

Jack (aka Subject Zero) 

Destroy - 5
Keep - 1

I don't think a whole lot of explanation is necessary. She hates Cerberus more than anything and voices her opinions vehemently. Probably the easiest one to scale.

Ok, these are just my thoughts. Some of these I'm not totally sure about. I would like to hear what you guys think about the character reactions.

PLEASE: Don't let this turn into a Destroy vs. Keep the Collector Base thread. Here's to hoping against hope.

[GodWood]

When actually at the base the companions voice opinions that are actually in character (for the most part)

Grunt, Zaeed, Garrus, Mordin and Legion support keeping it.

Jacob, Miranda, Jack, Samara, Thane, Tali and Kasumi support destroying it.



However once back on the Normandy everyone supports destroying it. (which is stupid)

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

GodWood wrote...

When actually at the base the companions voice opinions that are actually in character (for the most part)
Grunt, Zaeed, Garrus, Mordin and Legion support keeping it.
Jacob, Miranda, Jack, Samara, Thane, Tali and Kasumi support destroying it.

However once back on the Normandy everyone supports destroying it. (which is stupid)

IMO, Garrus should be switched with Jacob and Miranda. The turian supports giving it to Cerberus when the Cerberus agents don't?

[GodWood]

Garrus is pragmatic.

[GodWood]

Companion reactions at base.

Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base then all these people died for nothing.

Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.

Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user, just like Collectors.

Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.

Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?

Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.

Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.

Mordin: Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.

Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.

Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.

Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.

Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty--you use it

Modifié par GodWood, 19 novembre 2010 - 10:41 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

GodWood wrote...

Garrus is pragmatic.

True, but he is also a Turian. I guess given his pretty even attitude towards Cerberus considering human-turian relations, it's not that surprising.

[Vieuxcruex]

No Reaction for Monrith?

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Vieuxcruex wrote...

No Reaction for Monrith?

I left out Morinth because I never, ever choose her and I see no justification for it. So, in any of my Shepard's universes her opinion matters not for she is dead.

I also left out DLC characters because I didn't feel like I really got to know them as well as the others.

[Xilizhra]

It doesn't matter; Morinth mimics Samara.

[MatronAdena]

I'm not bothered with Miranda, I personally didn't see her change of heart as something " sudden" with here there is a gradual disillusioning of Cerberus as things progressed, more so once you get her sister her whole personality softens alittle.



at least thats my take on it, I just seemed to notice this really really subtle shift as things progressed.

[Dave of Canada]

MatronAdena wrote...

I'm not bothered with Miranda, I personally didn't see her change of heart as something " sudden" with here there is a gradual disillusioning of Cerberus as things progressed, more so once you get her sister her whole personality softens alittle.

at least thats my take on it, I just seemed to notice this really really subtle shift as things progressed.

Maybe it's just me but I found it completely out of character, more so if you just outright ignored talking with her.

[Dave of Canada]

Serious-mode, I don't like the epilogue dialogue lines. It feels forced on the player to make them feel bad if they kept the base and pat the ones who blew it up on the back. For a game that goes out to try and show choice, they certainly like to cater to the paragon choices.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:43 .

[shepard2484]

You win wars by changing hearts. If you do not kill people and are not ruthless there will be no debate or at least not much of one concerning where your heart is in the matter.

[AdmiralCheez]

Entire team approves of destroying the base? Could it be--gasp!--foreshadowing?! Because obviously flashing warning signs in your face and reminding you that paragons are superior takes priority over staying in character.



Bioware, I am disappoint.

[PauseforEffect]

Depending on the dialog choices, some teammates will offer an opposing viewpoint to get the player to carefully weigh the decision. At least that's what I thought was the intent of the developers. Samara & Thane put up no argument with my Shepard destroying it

[dgcatanisiri]

In cases like Miranda, it does require some gap filling but I don't see it too outrageous. First of all, do her loyalty mission and she sees you as a friend, someone she can trust. Trust does not seem to be a commodity that Cerberus regularly employs. Second, she expresses disbelief that TIM set them up on the Collector ship only for him to immediately admit to it - in other words, he kept her out of the loop. Then, once EDI is unleashed, she says that Cerberus operations remain small enough for TIM to retain personal oversight, which means all the so-called rogue ops were actually under his supervision. The Teltin facility may be the only actual rogue operation in Cerberus history.

So finally, you reach the Collector base and see first hand what is going on. Miranda's reaction smacks of her knee-jerk reaction to both the horrors around her and a side effect of all of the evidence pointing to TIM having steered her wrong. I don't see it as unlikely that she would, after some time and thought, come back around to Cerberus' mind set, but in the immediate perspective, calling it a knee-jerk response seems to be the most reasonable explanation.

[Xilizhra]

The Teltin facility may be the only actual rogue operation in Cerberus history.

Quite frankly, I don't believe this either. TIM doesn't seem like the kind of person who'd trust evidence reports alone, judging by his bugging the entire Normandy.

[Markinator_123]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Serious-mode, I don't like the epilogue dialogue lines. It feels forced on the player to make them feel bad if they kept the base and pat the ones who blew it up on the back. For a game that goes out to try and show choice, they certainly like to cater to the paragon choices.

This. I bet the only reason many people blew it up is because the narrative wanted them to. Sometimes, I just say "fine, Bioware, I will blow up the base since this is the choice you want me to make." However, personally speaking for a game known for moral ambiguity, this is just boring anf phony. What is the point in even making the renegade decision if Bioware is going to claim that it is the wrong choice to make.

[ADLegend21]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Entire team approves of destroying the base? Could it be--gasp!--foreshadowing?! Because obviously flashing warning signs in your face and reminding you that paragons are superior takes priority over staying in character.

Bioware, I am disappoint.

really, would you look Commander Shepard in the eye and say :"You're f***ing stupid for destroying that base Shepard" ?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Serious-mode, I don't like the epilogue dialogue lines. It feels forced on the player to make them feel bad if they kept the base and pat the ones who blew it up on the back. For a game that goes out to try and show choice, they certainly like to cater to the paragon choices.

this.

A while back, I actually made a thread asking why the team disapproves if you spare the base. It's almost as if BioWare is telling you that you "did the wrong thing", as opposed to when you destroy the base.

Pretty disturbing, if you ask me. But oh well; I only have one playthrough with the base spared.

[kraidy1117]

I just don't like it that certain character contradict there self's.

[Fiery Phoenix]

kraidy1117 wrote...

I just don't like it that certain character contradict there self's.

You could get around that by neglecting their first thought on the decision, since it was right at the heat of the moment. In other words, their on-ship opinion is probably the more apt.

[kraidy1117]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

I just don't like it that certain character contradict there self's.

You could get around that by neglecting their first thought on the decision, since it was right at the heat of the moment. In other words, their on-ship opinion is probably the more apt.

Well true for maybe Mordin, the same could not be said for Legion

Legion says keep the base, then all of a sudden it says it was better to destory it. It's like Legion, are you broken?