92 réponses à ce sujet

[Count Viceroy]

keekee53 wrote...

magelet wrote...

My main problem was how no one really agrees with you about keeping it. It makes it seem like you did the wrong thing, which I don't think the game should do.
Also some characters (Miranda and Mordin specifically) just seem really out of character by disagreeing with you.

I totally agree and I was totally surprised by their reactions.

I'd say they are more skeptical about who you're leaving it with, rather than keeping the base it self. In the heat of the moment some of them recognise the value the base could have, but once the dust settles and everyone realises it's being handed over to cerberus they get second thoughts and doubts. Understandable.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 20 novembre 2010 - 06:01 .

[Dave of Canada]

Count Viceroy wrote...

I'd say they are more skeptical about who you're leaving it with, rather than keeping the base it self. In the heat of the moment some of them recognise the value the base could have, but once the dust settles and everyone realises it's being handed over to cerberus they get second thoughts and doubts. Understandable.

What about Legion, who shouldn't have doubts or second thoughts?
What about Mordin, who always believes that the end justifies the means - no matter what?
What about Grunt, who calls you weak after telling you to keep it as a weapon?
ect

It's just bad writing.

[Xilizhra]

What about Legion, who shouldn't have doubts or second thoughts?

Did you not see their loyalty mission? Also, they don't necessarily offer opinions, only observations.

What about Mordin, who always believes that the end justifies the means - no matter what?

Mordin, like myself, probably doubts the ends that these means will lead to.

What about Grunt, who calls you weak after telling you to keep it as a weapon?

Either inconsistent youth, or he thinks that TIM is weak/you're weak for giving in.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

LorDC wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
You have the right to like static characters, personally I don't.

One sudden change change in personality doesn't make "static" character any more "dynamic" only more inconsistent. "Deus ex machina" is worse than static characters. The only way for you to prove your point is to show actual development of her character with examples of quotes or actions she takes. Without this all your explanations are just excuses for bad writing.

This is exactly correct. If you were able to "paragonize" Miranda throughout the game similar to what you could do with Ashley in ME1 it would make sense. Miranda never shows any sort of change of character throughout the game except showing a little of her emotional side to Shepard. Honestly, even one small line of doubt in Cerberus anywhere in the game would suffice. It is completely out of character and makes no sense.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Did you not see their loyalty mission? Also, they don't necessarily offer opinions, only observations.

Legion was trying to reach consensus, programs said "XX want this, XX want that." - he never offered his opinion, said to Shepard that it's his choice. However, at the Collector Base, he uses logic and doesn't question the decision at all by simply saying that you should keep it because it'll save lives and destroying it won't bring the dead back.

However, when you're back on the Normandy, he goes "lol wut you shouldn't have kept it and hope you don't use it".

Mordin, like myself, probably doubts the ends that these means will lead to.

Mordin knows what is at stake and can even reason keeping the Genophage because it saves the galaxy. You mean to tell me, he suddenly changed his mind (just like everybody else on the Normandy) because he felt that the base was bad?

Either inconsistent youth, or he thinks that TIM is weak/you're weak for giving in.

Right, no. He's never been inconsistent until this very moment and he outright calls you out on it, even though he told me to keep it. Maybe if being inconsistent was part of his character, though it never was.

[Xilizhra]

However, when you're back on the Normandy, he goes "lol wut you shouldn't have kept it and hope you don't use it".

I wonder if it's worth pointing out that one of their statements is factually wrong: "This facility is data." It contains data, but it itself is much more than data. So their support for keeping the base is a bad statement from the start, as it doesn't seem like them to get that wrong.

Mordin knows what is at stake and can even reason keeping the Genophage because it saves the galaxy. You mean to tell me, he suddenly changed his mind (just like everybody else on the Normandy) because he felt that the base was bad?

Genophage=extensively tested over a long period of time. Collector base=utterly spur-of-the-moment. His statement was similarly such, but he revised it after thinking about it.

Right, no. He's never been inconsistent until this very moment and he outright calls you out on it, even though he told me to keep it. Maybe if being inconsistent was part of his character, though it never was.

Perhaps my second option, then.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

I wonder if it's worth pointing out that one of their statements is factually wrong: "This facility is data." It contains data, but it itself is much more than data. So their support for keeping the base is a bad statement from the start, as it doesn't seem like them to get that wrong.

Aside from the Reaper-baby-making machine, the largest part of the base itself is data. Data on how to stop the Reapers, data on how to disable their weapons / defenses and such. Though that's another argument for the other Collector Base thread, the largest part of the base is information on how to stop the weapons and how to use their technology for our advantage.

The practical parts of the base won't be able to be accessed by Cerberus as they don't have the operatives necessary to capture millions and TIM isn't that stupid.

Genophage=extensively tested over a long period of time. Collector base=utterly spur-of-the-moment. His statement was similarly such, but he revised it after thinking about it.

Mordin: Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.

So he's fine with risking the entire galaxy, he just needed time to think, even though that's exactly why he worked on the genophage project in the first place? Tests or no, Mordin isn't irresponsible. He would probably have wiped out the Krogan if it meant saving the galaxy, as he's a firm believer of the ends / means thing I mentioned earlier.

He isn't going to change his mind, if he's anything he stays resolute in his stance until he's pushed on the edge. He's never done so in the ending of the game, he just stays there and says it. For a species that is able to coop faster than anybody else, Mordin's statement would probably be less spur-of-the-moment than the others and the others seem sure with themselves (at least until the Normandy where they do a 360 personality wise, where NOBODY agrees with you).

[Lord Nicholai]

LorDC wrote...

You either don't understand or do not want to understand what I(and other people) have written. I am not arguing that Miranda could not or should not change her opinion. I am arguing that there is not enough preparation for this throughout the story. You can bring up any number of plausible excuses for her behavior but it will not make her SUDDEN change less immersion breaking.

You do realise people can change their minds about something suddenly right? Its does not break immersion if Miranda changes her opinion on something without hours of build up showing her gradually change. She witnessed what the collectors had done to hundreds of thousands of colonists, is that not enough to have an impact on her?

The scientists working on the Manhattan Project would have believed they were doing what was right and 100% necessary, but do you think they all believed that after they saw the death and destruction they had caused?

Modifié par Lord Nicholai, 20 novembre 2010 - 07:14 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Lord Nicholai wrote...

LorDC wrote...

You either don't understand or do not want to understand what I(and other people) have written. I am not arguing that Miranda could not or should not change her opinion. I am arguing that there is not enough preparation for this throughout the story. You can bring up any number of plausible excuses for her behavior but it will not make her SUDDEN change less immersion breaking.

You do realise people can change their minds about something suddenly right? Its does not break immersion if Miranda changes her opinion on something without hours of build up showing her gradually change. She witnessed what the collectors had done to hundreds of thousands of colonists, is that not enough to have an impact on her?

It honestly doesn't make sense. Miranda is smart enough to realize destroying the base because people were killed there is simply foolishness born of sentimentality. She definitely should realize that after thinking about it back on the Normandy.

[Count Viceroy]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

It honestly doesn't make sense. Miranda is smart enough to realize destroying the base because people were killed there is simply foolishness born of sentimentality. She definitely should realize that after thinking about it back on the Normandy.

She's all business, up to a point, (this is important) and has been with cerberus a long time, but she came to them for protection, not because she was a true believer in the cause, that came later.

Even a pragmatist, like everyone else has limits. The more time she spends with Shepard the more she realises that she doesn't need to rely on cerberus like she has done in the past. Now she has the chance to look at them in a new light. The thing that makes her different is that she doesn't need Shepards the players guidance in order to come to these conclusions.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 20 novembre 2010 - 07:23 .

[Dave of Canada]

Lord Nicholai wrote...

The scientists working on the Manhattan Project would have believed they were doing what was right and 100% necessary, but do you think they all believed that after they saw the death and destruction they had caused?

Except, you know, there's a difference. Cerberus isn't going to use the Collector Base, it's going to use stuff from the Collector Base. What Miranda saw was people get ground up into slushies and fed to a baby Reaper, that isn't the same to what Cerberus will do with the base. Cerberus can't and never will build a Reaper, so she's arguing that it feels like a betrayal to use and study technology from the Reapers. The same technology that will be used against "us" within a few years.

That's even excluding the whole Cerberus-has-done-worse stick.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Count Viceroy wrote...

She's all business, up to a point, (this is important) and has been with cerberus a long time, but she came to them for protection, not because she was a true believer in the cause, that came later.

Even a pragmatist, like everyone else has limits. The more time she spends with Shepard the more she realises that she doesn't need to rely on cerberus like she has done in the past. Now she has the chance to look at them in a new light. The thing that makes her different is that she doesn't need Shepards the players guidance in order to come to these conclusions.

1) She would only look at Cerberus in a new light if you play paragon. Even if Shepard is renegade she shows her displeasure.

2) The problem is (and has been mentioned before) that there is not even the slightest hint of any form of transformation of the character. It doesn't bother me that characters question the decision to keep the base; it bothers me when they question the decision in spite of all of the character development throughout the game.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Lord Nicholai wrote...

The scientists working on the Manhattan Project would have believed they were doing what was right and 100% necessary, but do you think they all believed that after they saw the death and destruction they had caused?

They were doing what was right and necessary. The Manhattan Project was just the first to create what was inevitable. Nuclear weapons would still exist today and they probably would have been used somewhere else if not on Japan.

[Count Viceroy]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

1) She would only look at Cerberus in a new light if you play paragon. Even if Shepard is renegade she shows her displeasure.

2) The problem is (and has been mentioned before) that there is not even the slightest hint of any form of transformation of the character. It doesn't bother me that characters question the decision to keep the base; it bothers me when they question the decision in spite of all of the character development throughout the game.

1. Why? she can form her own opinions about cerberus, regardless of what Shepard does. She's not a highschooler hanging with the cool kid and mimics their clothes and opinions.

2. Maybe I'm imagining things, but I always picked a small hint of doubt in the last conversations with her after her loyalty mission. Again I'm under the belief that she does't really care for cerberus agenda per say. They gave her protection, which is what she needed, and the rest was a package deal. She's comfortable where she is and wouldn't speak out like that unless she had something better in mind. This option has now presented it self with Shepard. This is especially true if she's romanced. Someone comes along and doesn't see her as a tool, for once.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 20 novembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Dave of Canada]

She wouldn't have became leader of a cell and allowed to see TIM in person if she didn't care for their agenda.

[Count Viceroy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

She wouldn't have became leader of a cell and allowed to see TIM in person if she didn't care for their agenda.

I didn't mean she didn't care at all. As I said that's not the reason she joined. Obviously you'd eventually be absorbed into it if it gave you everything else you ever wanted.

Point being is that if she had joined as a hardcore fundamentalist anti alien believer, her doubts about cerberus would be completely ridiculous, as it stands, not so much.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 20 novembre 2010 - 07:43 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

1) She would only look at Cerberus in a new light if you play paragon. Even if Shepard is renegade she shows her displeasure.

2) The problem is (and has been mentioned before) that there is not even the slightest hint of any form of transformation of the character. It doesn't bother me that characters question the decision to keep the base; it bothers me when they question the decision in spite of all of the character development throughout the game.

1. Why? she can form her own opinions about cerberus, regardless of what Shepard does. She's not a highschooler hanging with the cool kid and mimics their clothes and opinions.

2. Maybe I'm imagining things, but I always picked a small hint of doubt in the last conversations with her after her loyalty mission. Again I'm under the belief that she does't really care for cerberus agenda per say. They gave her protection, which is what she needed, and the rest was a package deal. She's comfortable where she is and wouldn't speak out like that unless she had something better in mind. This option has now presented it self with Shepard.

1) Your first post mentioned "the more time she spends with Shepard" and seeing she doesn't need Cerberus. My Shepard defers to the Illusive Man's judgement and follows his lead. She wouldn't learn this "I'm my own person" stuff from me.

2) I really don't see how you get any hint that her loyalty to Cerberus is disingenuous. And again, if her loyalty is disingenuous, then we should have some sort of hint somewhere. I don't think the writers are terrible so I'm assuming her loyalty to Cerberus is genuine. As to her loyalty mission, I have never noticed anything. Post the quote you think shows uncertainty about Cerberus.

[Ryzaki]

Hm...I think I can see it both ways. Sometimes there really is something that you can't fanthom. (TIM's over-eagerness (not to mention impeccible timing!) for the CB) the only thing we know that thing has is a baby Reaper. ...Why so eager?

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hm...I think I can see it both ways. Sometimes there really is something that you can't fanthom. (TIM's over-eagerness (not to mention impeccible timing!) for the CB) the only thing we know that thing has is a baby Reaper. ...Why so eager?

The Collector technology alone is considered the greatest technology in the galaxy, where having a piece of it is considered like winning the lottery. That's excluding the plans about Reaper weaponry, defenses and such. The sheer advantage of the base is enough to warrant TIM's interest.

It wasn't TIM's plan from the start, though. That's impossible for a couple of reasons, namely how he only found out you can save the base by looking up schematics.

[Count Viceroy]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

1) Your first post mentioned "the more time she spends with Shepard" and seeing she doesn't need Cerberus. My Shepard defers to the Illusive Man's judgement and follows his lead. She wouldn't learn this "I'm my own person" stuff from me.

2) I really don't see how you get any hint that her loyalty to Cerberus is disingenuous. And again, if her loyalty is disingenuous, then we should have some sort of hint somewhere. I don't think the writers are terrible so I'm assuming her loyalty to Cerberus is genuine. As to her loyalty mission, I have never noticed anything. Post the quote you think shows uncertainty about Cerberus.

1. Some things require perspective. But yes, I do agree somewhat with it making less sense for a pro cerberus shepard. 

2. Don't get me wrong, her loyalty to cerberus is probably real, but it's not founded in the dedicated belief to their cause. She came for the protection, and the cause grew on her, like it would anyone in her position.

The point is, it's much more easily uprooted than if she had joined as a crazy fundamentalist screaming for the alien crusades. Which is why I don't see her questioning of cerberus at the end being 'such' a strech as some people make it out to be. 

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 20 novembre 2010 - 07:51 .

[kraidy1117]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Hm...I think I can see it both ways. Sometimes there really is something that you can't fanthom. (TIM's over-eagerness (not to mention impeccible timing!) for the CB) the only thing we know that thing has is a baby Reaper. ...Why so eager?

The Collector technology alone is considered the greatest technology in the galaxy, where having a piece of it is considered like winning the lottery. That's excluding the plans about Reaper weaponry, defenses and such. The sheer advantage of the base is enough to warrant TIM's interest.

It wasn't TIM's plan from the start, though. That's impossible for a couple of reasons, namely how he only found out you can save the base by looking up schematics.

Oh not this again. He wanted Collector tech, he just didn't send you through hell to take down the Collectors. TIM is all about plaining, manulplitating(sp) and using what ever he can to stop a threat. He might have fonud out he could save the base(and that's what he tells you, you can trust TIM all you want but I don't) but his plan was to get there tech. If he didn't want the tech he wounld't have got that pissed off when you blew off the base.

[Dave of Canada]

kraidy1117 wrote...

If he didn't want the tech he wounld't have got that pissed off when you blew off the base.

Of course he wanted the tech, Shepard was being a moron and blew up the base because it would "compromise who he is" and but the entire galaxy at risk because of it. I'd be pretty pissed off too.

Count Viceroy wrote...

The point is, it's much more easily uprooted than if she had joined as a crazy fundamentalist screaming for the alien crusades. Which is why I don't see her questioning of cerberus at the end being 'such' a strech as some people make it out to be.

One doesn't need to be anti-alien to go to Cerberus, though. My paragon is pro-Cerberus, even though I don't hate aliens. Hell, the entire crew consists of people who don't mind aliens.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 novembre 2010 - 07:56 .

[LorDC]

Lord Nicholai wrote...
You do realise people can change their minds about something suddenly right? Its does not break immersion if Miranda changes her opinion on something without hours of build up showing her gradually change. She witnessed what the collectors had done to hundreds of thousands of colonists, is that not enough to have an impact on her?

The scientists working on the Manhattan Project would have believed they were doing what was right and 100% necessary, but do you think they all believed that after they saw the death and destruction they had caused?

People never change their mind suddenly. There is either a build up of doubts or some groundbreaking event. You can argue that what she saw at the base was groundbreaking. But Miranda is not schoolgirl but top Cerberus operative. How could she became one if she was so impressionable? She is even able to apply "ends justify the means" to her closest people. She even shows it after actually seeing what Collectors do to people. And then suddenly turn into emo-girl? I am not gonna believe it.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Count Viceroy wrote...

1. Some things require perspective. But yes, I do agree somewhat with it making less sense for a pro cerberus shepard. 

2. Don't get me wrong, her loyalty to cerberus is probably real, but it's not founded in the dedicated belief to their cause. She came for the protection, and the cause grew on her, like it would anyone in her position.

The point is, it's much more easily uprooted than if she had joined as a crazy fundamentalist screaming for the alien crusades. Which is why I don't see her questioning of cerberus at the end being 'such' a strech as some people make it out to be. 

In response to point 2, she states multiple times she stands for what Cerberus stands for, and she never makes even the slightest indication that that may not be the case. The point is, the only anti-Cerberus sentiments she ever hints about are at the Collector base and afterward. If we can't assume Miranda is completely behind Cerberus when every shred of evidence points in that direction, then we are not allowed to make any assumptions about any characters feelings on anything. I think Jack actually loves Cerberus because they made her powerful, she just doesn't know it yet. TIM isn't actually behind Cerberus despite his hard work, he just doesn't know he hates his organization yet.

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Collector technology alone is considered the greatest technology in the galaxy, where having a piece of it is considered like winning the lottery. That's excluding the plans about Reaper weaponry, defenses and such. The sheer advantage of the base is enough to warrant TIM's interest.

It wasn't TIM's plan from the start, though. That's impossible for a couple of reasons, namely how he only found out you can save the base by looking up schematics.

Eh. I don't know. He got pretty pissed off for you blowing up the base. Yes it was the only means of CT but you've already been kicking the Reapers asses with the tech you had now. Not to mention TIM doesn't share. The only people who would've been ready would've been Cerberus and we need a hell of a lot more than them to take down the Reapers.