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DA2 - Dumb design, winning formula


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#26
Nerivant

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haberman13 wrote...

I'm not joking at all. DA2 looks like a lot of fun. I won't buy it because I will be playing Cataclysm instead (quit when I'm max lvl). I'm a sucker for stats and gear, so DA:O was my type of game.

No backhanded insult intended, I kind of had an epiphany while watching a DA2 gameplay video that made me step back and see it for what it was: a fun game. Kind of like Ninja Gaiden (awesome console game back in the day) mixed with DA:O.

ToR on the other hand will be ALL about stats/gear/min-maxing with some Bioware story on top (winning formula IMO).

A true "DA2" is actually the Witcher 2, from what I've seen of each game at least.


Then go be a mathematician. Yo.

#27
Teknor

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It can even do better.

#28
Ziggeh

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Amyntas wrote...

I like ME2, but Dragon Age didn't have to copy ME2. It did very well commercially.

Heres a crazy thought: maybe they're not changing it to appeal to the ME2 audience?

I know, I know, I'm like some sort of savant.

#29
haberman13

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Amyntas wrote...

According to Gamespot, "Mass Effect 2 was a solid hit, selling over 1.6 million units as of May"
http://www.gamespot....adlines;title;5

And according to gamercenteronline "BioWare has just announced that Dragon Age: Origins has sold over 3.2 million units worldwide, granting Dragon Age triple platinum status."
http://www.gamercent...platinum-sales/

I like ME2, but Dragon Age didn't have to copy ME2. It did very well commercially.


That may be true, but I don't see a DA:O game thriving on the consoles long-term.  For them to establish the franchise for that particular set of tastes they need to introduce co-op in some way and remove some of the nerdier elements (like gear and stats).

Basically, Bioware is making a choice to survive by catering to the largest consumer base.

#30
haberman13

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Nerivant wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

I'm not joking at all. DA2 looks like a lot of fun. I won't buy it because I will be playing Cataclysm instead (quit when I'm max lvl). I'm a sucker for stats and gear, so DA:O was my type of game.

No backhanded insult intended, I kind of had an epiphany while watching a DA2 gameplay video that made me step back and see it for what it was: a fun game. Kind of like Ninja Gaiden (awesome console game back in the day) mixed with DA:O.

ToR on the other hand will be ALL about stats/gear/min-maxing with some Bioware story on top (winning formula IMO).

A true "DA2" is actually the Witcher 2, from what I've seen of each game at least.


Then go be a mathematician. Yo.


Lol, best "GTFO" post ever.  Is the "Yo" a reference to the 300+ page "brah" thread I started?  LOL, that was an epic week, much laugher while working.

In all seriousness, Bioware can exist in both worlds.  They made ME2 and ToR at the same time, both diametrically opposed philosophies.  One exposes the math, the other hides it.

Modifié par haberman13, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:28 .


#31
Brockololly

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Ulous wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...


If you want a heavily streamlined game that betrays its own roots, go buy DA2.



What roots? DA2 is a root of its own, the root of a new flower that will bloom to the modernization of Bioware RPG's.


Image IPB

#32
FieryDove

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haberman13 wrote...

So, my advice: play ToR if you liked Bioware of the last decade, and stop worrying about the consolification of their other fanchises.



Thanks for the advice...On second thought, no thanks.

ToR has the wheel...it's ebil! It's not good to use paraphrase in RPG's when I'm supposed to be role-playing my character. I do not like russian roulette mini-games when I am about to say something...anything.

#33
Teknor

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haberman13 wrote...

That may be true, but I don't see a DA:O game thriving on the consoles long-term.  For them to establish the franchise for that particular set of tastes they need to introduce co-op in some way and remove some of the nerdier elements (like gear and stats).


I am afraid that post makes you a troll.

#34
Nerivant

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FieryDove wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

So, my advice: play ToR if you liked Bioware of the last decade, and stop worrying about the consolification of their other fanchises.



Thanks for the advice...On second thought, no thanks.

ToR has the wheel...it's ebil! It's not good to use paraphrase in RPG's when I'm supposed to be role-playing my character. I do not like russian roulette mini-games when I am about to say something...anything.


Oh man, bomb dropping in 3...

2...

1...

#35
haberman13

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Teknor wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

That may be true, but I don't see a DA:O game thriving on the consoles long-term.  For them to establish the franchise for that particular set of tastes they need to introduce co-op in some way and remove some of the nerdier elements (like gear and stats).


I am afraid that post makes you a troll.


Think so?  How?

Its my analysis, if I'm wrong point out why.

#36
ErichHartmann

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I say we all surrender to Cataclysm next month! Who doesn't want to play a furry werewolf? :D

#37
slimgrin

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Ulous wrote...

What roots? DA2 is a root of its own, the root of a new flower that will bloom to the modernization of Bioware RPG's.


Please...

Modifié par slimgrin, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:29 .


#38
haberman13

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Nerivant wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

So, my advice: play ToR if you liked Bioware of the last decade, and stop worrying about the consolification of their other fanchises.



Thanks for the advice...On second thought, no thanks.

ToR has the wheel...it's ebil! It's not good to use paraphrase in RPG's when I'm supposed to be role-playing my character. I do not like russian roulette mini-games when I am about to say something...anything.


Oh man, bomb dropping in 3...

2...

1...


Meh, can't please everybody.  Look at my post history for ME2 for example haha.

ToR will be WoW + story + sci-fi.   [excited!]

So many games coming out, it seems wise to just drop the emotion and play whichever game suites your taste.

In some ways, I concede defeat to the consoles, they sell more games/units and me complaining about "dumbing down" is pointless considering there are plenty of pseudo-intellectually-challenging games still left.

Modifié par haberman13, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:33 .


#39
Dave of Canada

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Illborne wrote...

Imagine how it's like for the ones who are fans of both franchises.


I don't wish to know how it's like.  *cowers at the thought*

#40
Teknor

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haberman13 wrote...

Think so?  How?

Its my analysis, if I'm wrong point out why.


You are trying too hard. 

#41
Krytheos

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

Ulous wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...


If you want a heavily streamlined game that betrays its own roots, go buy DA2.



What roots?

Indeed, I would like someone to describe what that actually means, because I suspect what they usually mean is "I don't like the sound of it, but have no idea why"


Roots in this context can be taken to mean what the person feels is the 'root' of the game, i.e. old-style RPG mechanics, non-voiced protagonist, what they perceive as their 'roots.'

For instance; DA: O's roots are heavily grounded in touting as the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate. DA: 2 isn't following in that respect, as it now must stand on it's own merits or fail trying.
 
Generally speaking, this is what I call 'superiority complex' in which someone believes that an inferior game, such as Baldur's Gate 1, is superior to something like Baldur's Gate 2, which is an opinion and not a fact. I personally believe BG2 is superior to BG1, for instance, but someone may disagree, which is what an opinion is about.

A superiority complex opinion is, as I define it, what someone says is inferior based on zero factual evidence to support their clause, i.e. in this case some referring to DA: O as automatically superior to DA: 2 in every way, despite them having never played the game yet, based on evidence that they will not like it, which is perfectly reasonably, but then say things that are arguably stupid in all contexts of these phrases, such as DA: 2 betraying its roots, or DA: 2 not being a 'DA' game, because the mechanics aren't kept the same.

There are multiple layers to explain this, but I'll just say what I think of this whole debacle in a few choice words; it's stupid, and it's childish, since the game is not out yet, nor will it be for months, automatically calling it a failure, or calling it out for 'betraying' its routes based only on hearsay or personal opinion is stupid, and the childish part is continuing to proliferate these statements long after you've gotten to the 'point' where it is obvious you won't buy the game, but continue to say these sometimes childish statements over and over again.

Disagreeing with the direction the game is taking? Perfectly reasonable. Disagreeing and then bashing the game repeatedly, sometimes even flat-out being elitist on the issue? Childish.

I could go on, but this whole debacle is tiring, and head-ache inducing.

#42
Ziggeh

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haberman13 wrote...

Its my analysis, if I'm wrong point out why.

Ah, go on then, i'll bite before this bad boy gets locked.

They've sped up the combat a bit, which along with the console only attack system means it's not a cak handed experience on them. They're doing something funky with the camera which we're not very clear about.

And as far as "dumbing down", that's all I've got. Did I miss anything? All the other changes I can recall either we either don't know enough about to say one way or the other or have no effect upon complexity.

#43
haberman13

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Teknor wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

Think so?  How?

Its my analysis, if I'm wrong point out why.


You are trying too hard. 


I'm failing too hard!

OK: old mode enabled

Relativism sucks, some things ARE legitimately worse.  Like static outfits for example, how can anyone argue that is an improvement on being able to select your own gear?  Sure, you CAN argue, but you may as well suggest 1+3=25

old mode disabled

Modifié par haberman13, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:36 .


#44
Nerivant

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haberman13 wrote...

Teknor wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

Think so?  How?

Its my analysis, if I'm wrong point out why.


You are trying too hard. 


I'm failing too hard!

OK: old mode enabled

Relativism sucks, some things ARE legitimately worse.  Like static outfits for example, how can anyone argue that is an improvement on being able to select your own gear?

old mode disabled


Because all the old gear looked horrible.

Next old-ism.

#45
Ulous

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Krytheos wrote...


Roots in this context can be taken to mean what the person feels is the 'root' of the game, i.e. old-style RPG mechanics, non-voiced protagonist, what they perceive as their 'roots.'



It was described as Biowares roots though.

Modifié par Ulous, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:38 .


#46
haberman13

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Nerivant wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

Teknor wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

Think so?  How?

Its my analysis, if I'm wrong point out why.


You are trying too hard. 


I'm failing too hard!

OK: old mode enabled

Relativism sucks, some things ARE legitimately worse.  Like static outfits for example, how can anyone argue that is an improvement on being able to select your own gear?

old mode disabled


Because all the old gear looked horrible.

Next old-ism.


old-new mode enabled

But you are doing what Bioware did for ME2:  people didn't like the inventory -> remove it

vs.

Ok, that wasn't the best, now lets make it the right way (ala good looking gear)

the concept is also refered to as "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

That said ... you are more than willing to embrace it ... so I'm sure there are millions of others who will too.


old-new mode disabled

#47
slimgrin

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Nerivant wrote...

Because all the old gear looked horrible.


And if they made new gear that looked good and was customizable?

Modifié par slimgrin, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:38 .


#48
Nerivant

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slimgrin wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

Because all the old gear looked horrible.


And if they made new gear that looked good and was customizable?


The game would take longer.

To make.

Modifié par Nerivant, 19 novembre 2010 - 07:39 .


#49
Krytheos

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Also, unique body models/meshes. Gives companions much more unique looks that aren't generic or horrible in every way imaginable.



Call me a 'traitor' al you like, but putting Sten, Leliana or Zevran in Generic-Armor 4500004222933945341-69 was just..blargh.

#50
Ziggeh

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Krytheos wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...
Indeed, I would like someone to describe what that actually means, because I suspect what they usually mean is "I don't like the sound of it, but have no idea why"


Roots in this context can be taken to mean what the person feels is the 'root' of the game, i.e. old-style RPG mechanics, non-voiced protagonist, what they perceive as their 'roots.'

Aye, I understand what they're trying to refer to, I mean that I've never seen it used when talking about anything specific. It's always wielded in the vague, clumsy way you describe, comparing one thing they know little about to another thing they clearly haven't formalised.