215 réponses à ce sujet

[haberman13]

Nerivant wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

Fair point. 

They will give you customization, in the form of $5 DLC.

2nd nail in the coffin

How pointless is it to pay real $ for single-player in-game items?  LOL!

I can slightly-kinda understand it in a multiplayer game, but even then it seems dopey.

How pointless is it to pay extra money for soda when you can drink water instead?

If it has value to you, it has value.

Why fly a kite when you can just pop a pill?  (sorry, Kramer echoed when you said that)

[AtreiyaN7]

Since getting in the head of a character involves more than pre-written dialogue and rigid responses in which you know exactly what you're going to say, I think it's perfectly valid to have the paraphrasing and icon system. One can clearly see the motivations and feelings behind the responses because of the emotion icons, and one now knows if the character is speaking in anger, or is trying to be sarcastic, etc.

When I write a response to something, I might have a brief, immediate reaction to a statement (consider it the paraphrase), but what I end up saying later usually differs a bit and is more elaborate than my initial reaction. I think that's essentially how the paraphrase/icon system works out: initial, visceral reaction + elaborate response afterwards.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:12 .

[Monica83]

Because they are facts.....

[Nerivant]

haberman13 wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

Fair point. 

They will give you customization, in the form of $5 DLC.

2nd nail in the coffin

How pointless is it to pay real $ for single-player in-game items?  LOL!

I can slightly-kinda understand it in a multiplayer game, but even then it seems dopey.

How pointless is it to pay extra money for soda when you can drink water instead?

If it has value to you, it has value.

Why fly a kite when you can just pop a pill?  (sorry, Kramer echoed when you said that)

Exactly. Just because you don't value it doesn't mean it is valued.
Trash vs treasure and all that jazz.

[Nerivant]

Monica83 wrote...

Because they are facts.....

You've seen every line of dialogue and know for certain that no matter what dialogue option you choose in DA2, you're locked into a certain personality?

What.

[crimzontearz]

Monica83 wrote...

Because you have the opportunity to select your entire answers thats help a lot you are limited yes but you have the opportunity to build the psicology of your character... With a pharaprase system that don't happen you have only a general line of what your character is going to say and this make feel the character less yours.. As a dialogue option its nice if you have a complete premaded character but not if you want "roleplay" your created hero.. The difference is that..

Some people likes rpg as videogames someone loves rpg for passion...
And when a game give the opportunity to create your hero i want have the complete control of what my character is going to say..

ok


I'll write this entire post in Italian so you will understand better

no, anche in un gioco come Dragon Age Origins, Monica, tu non hai un controllo completo di cio' che il tuo personaggio dice durante una conversazione. Quello che hai, in realta', e' una selezione di frasi prestabilite dal creatore del gioco tra le quali puoi scegliere. L'unico tipo di gioco dove hai controllo COMPLETO di Quello che il tuo personaggio dice e' un gioco di ruolo DA TAVOLO (DnD, Ars Magica, WoD, Cyberpunk e via discorrendo)
 
Ordunque, tu dici che non avendo occasione di conoscere a priori esattamente le risposte selezionate distrugge la tua immersione......io rispondo che in realta' la tua immersione dovrebbe essere gia' distrutta a priori dal semplice fatto che anche volendo non puoi dire ESATTAMENTE quello che vuoi ai tuoi interlocutori al di fuori dei parametri prestabiliti. Per esempio....io ho sempre voluto attacare Loghain  appana lo incontro a Denerim con ser Cauthien e Arl Howe...il fatto che non posso farlo e tanto limitante al mio ruolo quanto  il sistema di dialogo......ma non  sento nessuno lamentarsi anche se sembra, a un giocatore di ruolo, parecchio incongruo. 

detto questo, analiziamo il sistema di conversazioni

in Awakening Oghren quando vieni intrappolate nella Fade ogren ti chiede

"siamo Nella Fade? il reame dove gli umani sognano?"

il tuo personaggio puo' rispondere

-Si
-Tranquillo troveremo un modo di ritornare nel mondo reale
-non farti prendere dal panico


se questa conversazione prendesse luogo in DA2 avresti 3 parafrasi

- si (icona neutrale)
- ce la faremo (icona tranquillizante)
- non ha importanza (icona arrabbiata)


che risulteranno esattamente nelle stesse tre frasi di cui sopra.....a cui Oghren rispondera' esattamente nella stessa maniera in entrambi i giochi, l'unica differenza e' l'interfaccia. A costo di sembrare ripetitivo in un gioco  per computer/console non riuscirai MAI a giocare di ruolo come Dio comanda perche' non avrai MAI controllo completo delle azioni e risposte del tuo personaggio come ho appena dimostrato.

Monica onestamente a questo punto sembra che tu ti stia lamentando semplicemente al fine di  lamentarti

oh e perdona la mancanza di sccenti....le tastiere americane non li hanno

[Maria Caliban]

bsbcaer wrote...

Thanks for not spoiling me...but if I can't die, what's really the point of any action or combat?  Wouldn't that make any conflict kind of redundant?

No, not at all.

[haberman13]

As I see it Bioware is stuck between a cultural debate.

Do we all accept and become morons like the Family Guy?

Or do we move forward in understanding like Star Trek and advance knowledge and understanding?

Right now the American culture is "Dancing with the Morons" and DA2 is caught up in the debate, a debate which rages with each new bit of info that suggests ME2-ification and neutering of the cerebral parts of the game in lieu of keeping the ADD'ers entertained.

There are legions of us semi-intelligent people who recoil at the idea of dumbing-down.  There are far larger legions of vocal morons who suggest things like "remove the inventory" or I'm going back2CoD4l1f3

Bioware has chosen to listen to the latter.

Am I wrong in this analysis?

Modifié par haberman13, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:18 .

[TeaCokeProphet]

haberman13 wrote...

As I see it Bioware is stuck between a cultural debate.

Do we all accept and become morons like the Family Guy?

Or do we move forward in understanding like Star Trek and advance knowledge and understanding?

Right now the American culture is "Dancing with the Morons" and DA2 is caught up in the debate, a debate which rages with each new bit of info that suggests ME2-ification and neutering of the cerebral parts of the game in lieu of keeping the ADD'ers entertained.

There are legions of us semi-intelligent people who recoil at the idea of dumbing-down.  There are far larger legions of vocal morons who suggest things like "remove the inventory" or I'm going back2CoD4l1f3

Am I wrong in this analysis?

The problem is I think you're right. At least we have control over the way Hawke looks.

Is inventory truly gone? Or are you speaking of companion outfits?

[haberman13]

TeaCokeProphet wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

As I see it Bioware is stuck between a cultural debate.

Do we all accept and become morons like the Family Guy?

Or do we move forward in understanding like Star Trek and advance knowledge and understanding?

Right now the American culture is "Dancing with the Morons" and DA2 is caught up in the debate, a debate which rages with each new bit of info that suggests ME2-ification and neutering of the cerebral parts of the game in lieu of keeping the ADD'ers entertained.

There are legions of us semi-intelligent people who recoil at the idea of dumbing-down.  There are far larger legions of vocal morons who suggest things like "remove the inventory" or I'm going back2CoD4l1f3

Am I wrong in this analysis?

The problem is I think you're right. At least we have control over the way Hawke looks.

Is inventory truly gone? Or are you speaking of companion outfits?

I'm speaking of legitimate concerns stemming from ME2, and the BW tidbits that suggest a similar outcome with DA2.

As far as I know DA2 still has inventory for your character, though I'm semi-expecting that to be a more Fable 3 implimentation than anything else.

[ptibog]

TeaCokeProphet wrote...



Is inventory truly gone? Or are you speaking of companion outfits?

can't change companion's outfit
can't change companion's weapon type
can't swap weapons.

Yeah, the inventory is gone.

[Dave of Canada]

TeaCokeProphet wrote...

Is inventory truly gone?

It's not, as seen in these screenshots:




It's just ranting for the sake of ranting.

[Herr Uhl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Aside from presentation, it's roughly the same thing. In addition to the multiple personalities that Hawke can develop, Hawke will be more of "your" character than Shepard and can roughly be the same as the Warden.

Nevertheless, saying that the systems are the same is wrong. A potato can be cooked in many ways, and still be a potato, but would you consider mashed potatoes and chips the same?

And I'd have to experience the difference that the personality thing has before judging it as good or bad.

Edit: Why yes, I am hungry.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:27 .

[haberman13]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TeaCokeProphet wrote...

Is inventory truly gone?

It's not, as seen in these screenshots:

It's just ranting for the sake of ranting.

On a plus side it looks like there is still an inventory ... on a negative side Zelda looked more complex.

It's like ME2, sure you can put on "gear" but it has one stat: +3 dmg

LOL

Sorry, try again Bioware, you had it; but seem to have lost it.

Modifié par haberman13, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[The Masked Rog]

Monica83 wrote...

The witcher is born as action rpg but animations gameplay will be much better than dragon age 2

As the dialog system:

Just immagine your warden conversation...

Now look the conversation dialogues in leliana's song dlc

Leliana song use a sort of schematic paraphrase system and its good because you are not playng with a your character you are playng with leliana leliana have her hown personality

If you apply the same dialogue system at the warden you feel your character is much more limited and its not yours because with that system you cant give the personality to your character..

Schematic paraphrase system its nice if you have a complete premaded character with his personality like.. Geralt of rivia.. This is the reason because in the witcher 2 a dialogue like that isn't heavy..

In DA2 you create your hawke so is a character you make but the schematic paraphrase system don't give the freedom to give to the character the personality you chose.... You are not selecting full words.. you are selletting few words.. And icon... And this is bad if you are supposed to create your hero

This is the huge difference

If it used the DA system you'd still say the exact same thing by the exact same reason. In DA you select the aggressive option because it is aggressive. If you want to be aggressive, you don't have any other option but that one. DA2 is similar with the exception you don't know what you will say in the exact words you will say it. But if you knew before, and you wanted an aggressive answer, you'd still choose that one.

[Maria Caliban]

haberman13 wrote...

As I see it Bioware is stuck between a cultural debate.

Do we all accept and become morons like the Family Guy?

Or do we move forward in understanding like Star Trek and advance knowledge and understanding?

I'm starting to wonder if this dude is for real.

[Ryzaki]

And the problem with voice is it actually adds a lot of personality that someone might not necessarily want. What if you want to play the stoic? (I love playing the stoic) and you end up with a whole bunch of emotional inflections that aren't necessary or in character?

Or even worse. What if you just can't stand Hawke's voice?

And personally for me a voiced PC takes me from roleplaying to spectactorship. And athat point I'm not as emotionally involved in the story. If something bad happens to Shep's LI I'm like "Huh. That sucks." while if the same happened in DA I'd be like: "NOOOOOOO! How could they do that to my baby!" 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:27 .

[haberman13]

Maria Caliban wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

As I see it Bioware is stuck between a cultural debate.

Do we all accept and become morons like the Family Guy?

Or do we move forward in understanding like Star Trek and advance knowledge and understanding?

I'm starting to wonder if this dude is for real.

Clearly you side with the Family Guy haha, i jest i jest.

I am for real.  Do you disagree?  Or are you watching the Hoff every week mix it up with the other "stars"?

Watch Idiocracy and tell me DA2 isn't "St. Gods"

Modifié par haberman13, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:24 .

[Monica83]

I understeand your point of wiew crim but the difference is that full written answer have much more control of your character but the schematic paraphrase system not because is a radial way of dialogue and don't allow you to select what your character is going to say...



This difference for someone seems nothing... But in reality the different is present...



Schematic paraphrase system works better if you have a tolare predefined character.. This because a prefefined character have his personality...



A full written answer system works better if you are creating your character this because is much less intrusive and allows you to select what your character is going to say.. Now awakening its not a nice example for that because awakening be maked better.. Anyways the difference is this... The schematic one let you feel a spectator.. The full written answer make you feel inside your character.. This is a difference that not all understeands depends of how you play roleplay games.. Some don't worry of this change a lot.. Some yes.. because some of us like immersion in theyr character.. And a character that talks alone is much more intrusive than one that you have the complete control of what your character is going to say.. i hope to have explained it well

[TeaCokeProphet]

haberman13 wrote...
On a plus side it looks like there is still an inventory ... on a negative side Zelda looked more complex.

Now it sounds like you're being grounded by pessimism.

[stormhit]

haberman13 wrote...

As I see it Bioware is stuck between a cultural debate.

Do we all accept and become morons like the Family Guy?

Or do we move forward in understanding like Star Trek and advance knowledge and understanding?

Right now the American culture is "Dancing with the Morons" and DA2 is caught up in the debate, a debate which rages with each new bit of info that suggests ME2-ification and neutering of the cerebral parts of the game in lieu of keeping the ADD'ers entertained.

There are legions of us semi-intelligent people who recoil at the idea of dumbing-down.  There are far larger legions of vocal morons who suggest things like "remove the inventory" or I'm going back2CoD4l1f3

Bioware has chosen to listen to the latter.

Am I wrong in this analysis?

Yes, you're wrong.  Nothing you're talking about has anything to do with sophistication or intelligence. 

People have been warned over and over to stop framing things in that way, yet apparently some are either unable to comprehend this or simply don't care about being respectful guests here.

[haberman13]

stormhit13 wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

As I see it Bioware is stuck between a cultural debate.

Do we all accept and become morons like the Family Guy?

Or do we move forward in understanding like Star Trek and advance knowledge and understanding?

Right now the American culture is "Dancing with the Morons" and DA2 is caught up in the debate, a debate which rages with each new bit of info that suggests ME2-ification and neutering of the cerebral parts of the game in lieu of keeping the ADD'ers entertained.

There are legions of us semi-intelligent people who recoil at the idea of dumbing-down.  There are far larger legions of vocal morons who suggest things like "remove the inventory" or I'm going back2CoD4l1f3

Bioware has chosen to listen to the latter.

Am I wrong in this analysis?

Yes, you're wrong.  Nothing you're talking about has anything to do with sophistication or intelligence. 

People have been warned over and over to stop framing things in that way, yet apparently some are either unable to comprehend this or simply don't care about being respectful guests here.

But why?  Why does embracing the Family Guy not indicate a level of intelligence?

Why I ask, why?

I'm not pointing at anyone other than a nebulous social movement I have noticed, no disrespect intended.

Sometimes its worth stepping back and looking at what you accept as legitimate (Family Guy is my example), and ask if it isn't promoting a social negative.

I suggest doing that with DA2, for everyone saying "it will be alright" look at ME2 and ask yourself "did they need to remove the inventory, or improve on the broken ME1 inventory?"

One is critical analysis, the other is moronic thinking personified.

Modifié par haberman13, 19 novembre 2010 - 09:29 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Maria Caliban wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

As I see it Bioware is stuck between a cultural debate.

Do we all accept and become morons like the Family Guy?

Or do we move forward in understanding like Star Trek and advance knowledge and understanding?

I'm starting to wonder if this dude is for real.

Nope, he's an illusion created by the Talosians. It's one of their punishment methods, you see - I know that it's already making me want to beg for mercy so that someone will end it all.

[The Masked Rog]

Monica83 wrote...

I understeand your point of wiew crim but the difference is that full written answer have much more control of your character but the schematic paraphrase system not because is a radial way of dialogue and don't allow you to select what your character is going to say...

This difference for someone seems nothing... But in reality the different is present...

Schematic paraphrase system works better if you have a tolare predefined character.. This because a prefefined character have his personality...

A full written answer system works better if you are creating your character this because is much less intrusive and allows you to select what your character is going to say.. Now awakening its not a nice example for that because awakening be maked better.. Anyways the difference is this... The schematic one let you feel a spectator.. The full written answer make you feel inside your character.. This is a difference that not all understeands depends of how you play roleplay games.. Some don't worry of this change a lot.. Some yes.. because some of us like immersion in theyr character.. And a character that talks alone is much more intrusive than one that you have the complete control of what your character is going to say.. i hope to have explained it well

But there is no real difference. The dialogue option are still as defined as they were before. Now however, you hear them instead of reading them. Neither is more suitable for any type of RPGs and it comes down to preference. Not to pretend I speak for the casual players and the youger generations, but I think those kind of people much prefer listening to reading. I know I have enjoyed Planescape Torment and wouldn't mind seeing a version of it using the DA2 system. It would actually be awesome.

[Nefario]

haberman13 wrote...

Watch Idiocracy and tell me DA2 isn't "St. Gods"

Easily one of my favorite movies.
Please don't drag it into this. The sort of thing happening in DA2 being compared to what one sees in that film is an egregious abuse of hyperbole. I think even the most vocal opposers of the design decisions should see that.