315 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

iakus wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

Is it just me, or are people overlooking the possibility that they may have well used some/lots of Old Machine technology in Lazarus? Or am I just missing something?

It's possible.  I'm even holding out a little bit of hope that it's a gun to be fired in ME 3.  But there's zero evidence of it in ME 2.  This is mainly due to the characters' extreme lack of curiosity and inability to ask questions.  But all we're really told is Jacob's "cutting edge technology" line.

Well Sable Phoenix brought up an interesting point that could possibly explain the origin of the technology used to revive Shepard: his mind was "hacked" during the Overlord DLC, which means a significant portion of him is also synthetic. I think it definitely is possible - and the only reasonable trope that doesn't need cheap magic tricks or hard-sounding psuedo sci-fi - that the technology of the Old machines was used to revive him.

[Iakus]

Rekkampum wrote...

Well Sable Phoenix brought up an interesting point that could possibly explain the origin of the technology used to revive Shepard: his mind was "hacked" during the Overlord DLC, which means a significant portion of him is also synthetic. I think it definitely is possible - and the only reasonable trope that doesn't need cheap magic tricks or hard-sounding psuedo sci-fi - that the technology of the Old machines was used to revive him.

Well, by "zero evidence" I meant in teh main game.  Yeah I'm clinging to a theory that EDI wasn't the only thing Cerberus  researched from pieces of Sovereign.  You're right, though.  It's really the only explanation that isn't a variation of "a wizards did it"

I just wish we had at elast hints of it in the game.  Foreshadowing.  A sign that all is not as it seems.  That maybe Shepard isn't "exactly as before.  Just with a few extra parts"  That's what bridging stories do, right?

[morley37]

iakus wrote...

Rekkampum wrote...

Well Sable Phoenix brought up an interesting point that could possibly explain the origin of the technology used to revive Shepard: his mind was "hacked" during the Overlord DLC, which means a significant portion of him is also synthetic. I think it definitely is possible - and the only reasonable trope that doesn't need cheap magic tricks or hard-sounding psuedo sci-fi - that the technology of the Old machines was used to revive him.

Well, by "zero evidence" I meant in teh main game.  Yeah I'm clinging to a theory that EDI wasn't the only thing Cerberus  researched from pieces of Sovereign.  You're right, though.  It's really the only explanation that isn't a variation of "a wizards did it"

I just wish we had at elast hints of it in the game.  Foreshadowing.  A sign that all is not as it seems.  That maybe Shepard isn't "exactly as before.  Just with a few extra parts"  That's what bridging stories do, right?

Wasn't getting hacked a hint? Whatever is going on up there, it ain't all OEM.

[morley37]

Nimrodell wrote...

Eletania, Prothean sphere and the trinket from the Consort is unfired gun for me... I'm not sure if that Prothean sphere my Shepards have on Normandy will eventually give me the answer on this, but I surely hope that I'll find the answer in ME3, been waiting for it since ME1... For those that didn't see this, I'll give you Shepard's vision from Eletania Prothean sphere (ofc if Shepard has the trinket):

<snip>

"I'm fine," you finally reply, realizing that this is a mystery you will probably never solve. "Forget about it."

I think the whole story was more tying up a thread than a gun on the wall, tying up earlier speculation that the protheans had been meddling with humanity from an early stage by confirming it...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...


Shep : "whats that?"

EDI :" I would speculate that it's the
central processing unit of the mass relay...it's made up of both
biological and artificial components".

Shep :"You mean to say
that inside every single mass relay in the galaxy theres a unit like
this..made from genetic material of thousands of beings?"

EDI :"I'm..i'm afraid so".

Soylent Green relays? no thanks. That makes no kind of sense.

[vargatom]

I think that there are a lot of hints to themes and elements reminiscent of various classical science fiction novels. I don't think that Bioware is simply lifting ideas, but if they read some of the more important works of Clarke, Pohl, or others, then these could provide inspiration for the unknown elements in the Mass Effect storyline. 
Obviously, this may mean spoilers

For example, there's 2001: humanity learns of extraterrestrial life after discovering an alien artifact buried on the Moon. To the reader, the aliens are revealed to be organic life that later ascended to sentient spaceships - then eventually immaterial beings of pure energy; they decided to become caretakers of intelligence in the universe. On Earth, they manipulated a tribe of apes some three million years ago, to help them evolve into an intelligent civilization. They still remember and observe their past experiments, and lift the first astronaut to reach them onto a level of existence close to their own, to become their agent within our solar system.

Or The Gateway series: humanity gains the ability to explore the galaxy through technology left behind by an unknown race; that race is eventually discovered to be hibernating (within a black hole), because of the threat of some great enemy that can manipulate dark matter and is trying to reverse the universe into its state before the Big Bang.

These two are the most striking similarities that I've recognized, but there might be many more; and also, the answers and the resolution of the conflicts might be completely unrelated to these stories. But it's interesting to think about the possibilities...

Modifié par vargatom, 06 décembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[Iakus]

morley37 wrote...

Wasn't getting hacked a hint? Whatever is going on up there, it ain't all OEM.

Could be.  But I don't have Overlord.  I may get it if I ever have leftover Bioware points, but I'm in no hurry.  I despise the Hammerhead. 

Soylent Green relays? no thanks. That makes no kind of sense.

Why not?  The final boss is basically a giant Soylent Green Gingerbread Man

Modifié par iakus, 06 décembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

I wonder if ME3 will even have a final boss. Harbinger, maybe?

[Iakus]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I wonder if ME3 will even have a final boss. Harbinger, maybe?

I just pray Shepard doesn't get to go toe-to-toe with a full sized Reaper.  I don't think I could take the cheese factor.

[morley37]

iakus wrote...

morley37 wrote...





Soylent Green relays? no thanks. That makes no kind of sense.

Why not?  The final boss is basically a giant Soylent Green Gingerbread Man

Isn't that cheeseball enough? and it almost sorta has some sort of lame-ass logic behind it. Suggesting that the relays themselves are made of sentient shamrock shake is using the blender just for the sake of using the blender.

[wulf3n]

I think the whole idea of reapers using organic life for anything, let alone reproduction is ridiculous and goes against the very idea of reapers. I mean these are "synthetic" life forms that believe themselves to be utterly superior to organic life as to proclaim themselves gods, yet they rely on organic life for their very existence! The only thing reapers should need organics for is slaves to harvest raw materials.

[Schneidend]

wulf3n wrote...

I think the whole idea of reapers using organic life for anything, let alone reproduction is ridiculous and goes against the very idea of reapers. I mean these are "synthetic" life forms that believe themselves to be utterly superior to organic life as to proclaim themselves gods, yet they rely on organic life for their very existence! The only thing reapers should need organics for is slaves to harvest raw materials.

Considering Bioware's writing staff created the "very idea" of the reapers, why don't you let them worry about how they use organic life?

We're still awaiting the big reveal that will explain some of Harbinger and Sovereign's more cryptic lines. Well, most of us are, while you have apparently jumped the gun and decided Bioware has no idea how to create a story-intensive game.

[wulf3n]

Schneidend wrote...
while you have apparently jumped the gun and decided Bioware has no idea how to create a story-intensive game.

Like to put words in peoples mouths aye? besides how can a "synthetic" being be made of "organic" material?

[JamieCOTC]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I'll offer the first big discussion point, to illustrate what I'm thinking of.

I really dislike the Lazarus project.  There are numerous reasons why.  Resurrection is impossible, for one, and Mass Effect had established a nice veneer of hard science fiction over its space opera in the first game, which all got blown up along with the Normandy when BioWare decided to kill Shepard and ressurect her.  That annoys me.  But what bothers me the most about the Lazarus Project is that it is treated as nothing but a reset button for the game mechanics, trying to justify bringing up a new face editor screen.  As such its potential is totally wasted.

The Lazarus Project is chock full of missed opportunities.  There is all sorts of fodder there for some really deep investigation of "Come on, it's just a shooter-style video game," might be the response, but games can be art too.  Planescape:Torment remains one of the most highly-regarded games ever made in terms of story and characterization, and it really delved into the philosophy of existentialism and self-determination as the central theme of the story.  ME2 could have done something similar, but... it just didn't.  Let's see someone actually mention that Shepard has been literally raised from the dead, at least.  Let's see Shepard wrestling with the implications, somehow.  Let's see her friends expressing actual concern for her.  A simple "I got better" is a disservice.  We could have discussed the afterlife or lack thereof with Mordin and Thane, we could have discussed the fears and doubts that result from this with Garrus and Tali, we could have pondered with Liara whether we were actually still the same person.  Heck, the technological, economic and societal implications of actually successfully bringing someone back from the dead are massive; they should have at least gotten a passing mention.  None of that happens, and it makes the entire thing feel like exactly what it is, a contrived plot device and nothing more.

I have rationalized all of this in my own head that Shepard in ME2 is not actually Shepard any more, but an AI imprinted upon neural tissue grown from the DNA recovered in Shepard's body, an AI with emotions.  In fact, that could have been ever better, with all sorts of opportunities to investigate transhumanism and consciousness.  I won't get into that any farther into the details on that, as it heads into off topic land, but even if that were the case, that alone is such a significant technological accomplishment that it ought to be a gigantic point in the plot.

I really, really hope that in ME3, Shepard's cybernetic, resurrected nature plays an actual role in the final defeat of the Reapers.  That would make it all worth it, and make it feel a lot less cheap than a simple "reset button".

Well said. 

Here's how I rationalize it.  How Shepard REALLY came back from the dead. 

[Schneidend]

wulf3n wrote...

Schneidend wrote...
while you have apparently jumped the gun and decided Bioware has no idea how to create a story-intensive game.

Like to put words in peoples mouths aye? besides how can a "synthetic" being be made of "organic" material?

We're never given any precise details as to how the reaper construction process works. It's never implicitly stated that the orange biomass we see being created from the humans is the construction material. For all we know, the harvested goop may simply be part of what forms a reaper's consciousness.

[Iakus]

Schneidend wrote...

We're never given any precise details as to how the reaper construction process works. It's never implicitly stated that the orange biomass we see being created from the humans is the construction material. For all we know, the harvested goop may simply be part of what forms a reaper's consciousness.

I honestly don't see how that makes any more sense.

As far as organic component being needed for Reaper construction, I'm willing to wait and see what ME 3 reveals.

But it better be a really, really good explanation.  Cause the human Reaper was downright silly.

[wulf3n]

Schneidend wrote...
We're never given any precise details as to how the reaper construction process works. It's never implicitly stated that the orange biomass we see being created from the humans is the construction material. For all we know, the harvested goop may simply be part of what forms a reaper's consciousness.

It's still organic material being involved in the construction of a synthetic being that despises organic life. The "revelation" that they require organics in order to reproduce seems out of character, for a race of machines that consider themselves superior to organic life.

Modifié par wulf3n, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[Schneidend]

Well, they're essentially immortal, nigh invulnerable, can fly, and their faces double as cannons that shoot streams of molten metal.



They consider themselves superior not because they're synthetic, but that they're supposedly the pinnacle of all life in general. That they happen to be robot spaceship gods isn't really the point. It's mostly that they're spaceship gods.

[wulf3n]

Schneidend wrote...
They consider themselves superior not because they're synthetic, but that they're supposedly the pinnacle of all life in general. That they happen to be robot spaceship gods isn't really the point. It's mostly that they're spaceship gods.

Their reliance on those that are so inferior to them is what destroys their credibility.

[Iakus]

wulf3n wrote...

Schneidend wrote...
They consider themselves superior not because they're synthetic, but that they're supposedly the pinnacle of all life in general. That they happen to be robot spaceship gods isn't really the point. It's mostly that they're spaceship gods.

Their reliance on those that are so inferior to them is what destroys their credibility.

Humans, the vegetables of the Reapers.  They despise us, but must consume us to stay healthy

[Schneidend]

wulf3n wrote...

Schneidend wrote...
They consider themselves superior not because they're synthetic, but that they're supposedly the pinnacle of all life in general. That they happen to be robot spaceship gods isn't really the point. It's mostly that they're spaceship gods.

Their reliance on those that are so inferior to them is what destroys their credibility.

Cows are generally considered inferior to humans, and we need them for protein.

Besides, we don't know if the reapers "need" us. They have no obvious "need" to reproduce, being immortal and so utterly powerful. Harbinger talks about our "ascension" and "salvation", so I think there's still more to learn and you're really jumping the gun here. We just don't know enough about the reapers to make these kind of judgements objectively.

Modifié par Schneidend, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:28 .

[Hathur]

Regarding the resurrection... based on the most recent novel, I'm willing to bet Shepard was resurrected utilizing the same or similar technology that was used on the character in the book (sorry forgot his name)...

This suggests to me that in ME3, we will discover Shepard is in fact, part Reaper.. and it will play a major part in the story.

Just my theory... but there's too many correlation between the character in the novel and Shepard herself (himself) to ignore... the whoe "red-shifting" appearance of Shep as a renegade in game is virtually identical to the character in the novel.. and he was a reaper basically.

Modifié par Hathur, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:37 .

[entrybydoors]

This is a very interesting discussion.
I have a few problems with Chekhov's Gun that come up whenever anyone mentions the rule:

1)  The rule of Chekhov's Gun is meant for playwriting, and its applicability to other mediums is arguable.

2)  In terms of effective plot devices, an exception to the rule can be just as effective as a usage of the rule.  Misdirection, in other words.

3)  Chekhov's Gun can lead to too much predictability, and not everything needs to be (or should be) foreshadowed.

One of the most noticeable unfired guns in ME2, to me, was EDI.  A lot of dialogue was used to establish grounds for a distrust of EDI.  Her hidden systems, her omnipresence, the fact that several crew members express a distrust of AIs, the repeated dialogue options in which Shepard can express a distrust in EDI, her monitoring of the crew, the use of a fairly well-known actress as her voice, the locked server room - toward the beginning of the game, all of this gave me a pretty strong hunch that EDI would rebel against, or be used against Shepard in some way.  I've seen "2001: A Space Odyssey" rehashed enough times.  I'm glad this gun, among others, was left unfired.

[Iakus]

entrybydoors wrote...

One of the most noticeable unfired guns in ME2, to me, was EDI.  A lot of dialogue was used to establish grounds for a distrust of EDI.  Her hidden systems, her omnipresence, the fact that several crew members express a distrust of AIs, the repeated dialogue options in which Shepard can express a distrust in EDI, her monitoring of the crew, the use of a fairly well-known actress as her voice, the locked server room - toward the beginning of the game, all of this gave me a pretty strong hunch that EDI would rebel against, or be used against Shepard in some way.  I've seen "2001: A Space Odyssey" rehashed enough times.  I'm glad this gun, among others, was left unfired.

Not to mention the entirety of ME 1 (the geth, the AI on the Citadel, the rogue VI on the moon) and yes, the fact that she was voiced by #6.  I kinda found myself hoping that they'd play that whole "sinister AI" angle to make the fact that she was loyal more suprising. 

[Sable Phoenix]

Hathur wrote...

Regarding the resurrection... based on the most recent novel, I'm willing to bet Shepard was resurrected utilizing the same or similar technology that was used on the character in the book (sorry forgot his name)...

This suggests to me that in ME3, we will discover Shepard is in fact, part Reaper.. and it will play a major part in the story.

Just my theory... but there's too many correlation between the character in the novel and Shepard herself (himself) to ignore... the whoe "red-shifting" appearance of Shep as a renegade in game is virtually identical to the character in the novel.. and he was a reaper basically.

See, that is kind of what Lucasfilm did with the "prequel" trilogy.  There was stuff in the movies themselves that didn't make sense if you didn't watch the Cartoon Network Clone Wars animated shorts, for example.  The problem is that only a small fraction of people who saw the movies ever saw the cartoon, meaning the vast majority of the audience is sitting their scratching their heads saying "huh?" or just thinking "that's dumb" because they don't know the context.  If BioWare pulls the same thing with Mass Effect 3, relying on the novels and comics to fill in the gaps when most people who play the game have never read those, well, that's just lazy writing.