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Chekhov's Unfired Guns: Mass Effect 2 Writing and Story Discussion


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#276
Sable Phoenix

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Here's another thing that was never capitalized on... the plague on Omega.

Mordin makes a big deal about how the Collectors were most likely behind it. The vorcha confirm it. What was its purpose? Mordin surmises that it's an experiment with humans as the control group, but we never find out what exactly the purpose was How does it help the Reapers? Was it designed to repurpose other species the way the Protheans were repurposed into the Collectors themselves?

I hope this is expanded on in ME3 (although I doubt it will be), because now, it seems random and pointless.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 22 décembre 2010 - 06:28 .


#277
Iakus

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Sable Phoenix wrote...

Here's another thing that was never capitalized on... the plague on Omega.

Mordin makes a big deal about how the Collectors were most likely behind it. The vorcha confirm it. What was its purpose? Mordin surmises that it's an experiment with humans as the control group, but we never find out what exactly the purpose was How does it help the Reapers? Was it designed to repurpose other species the way the Protheans were repurposed into the Collectors themselves?

I hope this is expanded on in ME3 (although I doubt it will be), because now, it seems random and pointless.


That's very true.  In fact, I was on my second playthrough before it even sank in that the plague was the Collector's handiwork, so little was made of it.

#278
Googlesaurus

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Sable Phoenix wrote...

Here's another thing that was never capitalized on... the plague on Omega.

Mordin makes a big deal about how the Collectors were most likely behind it. The vorcha confirm it. What was its purpose? Mordin surmises that it's an experiment with humans as the control group, but we never find out what exactly the purpose was How does it help the Reapers? Was it designed to repurpose other species the way the Protheans were repurposed into the Collectors themselves?

I hope this is expanded on in ME3 (although I doubt it will be), because now, it seems random and pointless.


I would guess that it had something to do with determining which other species were viable candidates for building a Reaper. 

#279
Rekkampum

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[quote]iakus wrote...
I hope this is expanded on in ME3 (although I doubt it will be), because now, it seems random and pointless.[/quote]

That's very true.  In fact, I was on my second playthrough before it even sank in that the plague was the Collector's handiwork, so little was made of it.[/quote]

Yeah, the plague on Omega seemed like a cheap plot device to introduce Mordin, and its connection to the Reapers/Collectors seems tacked on.

#280
Orange Face_

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To be perfectly honest there isn't one specific thing about the writing that troubled me as much as the tone and voice that was established. Somehow making the action more intense and adding a few swear words brought us a dark story. I just don't buy it. Omega is the 3rd world station of the galaxy and to top it of it has a deadly plague, but we were told that. Harbinger is the main bad guy, but other than taunting me in combat I have no idea who he is or why I should care. All of my squad mates got baggage that I can fix in a fifteen minute mission, heck after Jacob hands his father a pistol to kill himself with there is never a second thought about it. He even wants to party at the citadel. I felt like Bioware cheated me out of my money with this game, because it's not dark at all, it's shallow. After I finished Mass Effect I figured video games were about to take the next step, but ME2 seriously dampened my hopes. Lair of the Shadow Broker seems to be a step back in the right direction, hopefully the ME3 team got the message. Talk of multi-player in ME3 not a good sign though.

#281
HappyHappyJoyJoy

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Sable Phoenix wrote...

See, that is kind of what Lucasfilm did with the "prequel" trilogy.  There was stuff in the movies themselves that didn't make sense if you didn't watch the Cartoon Network Clone Wars animated shorts, for example.  The problem is that only a small fraction of people who saw the movies ever saw the cartoon, meaning the vast majority of the audience is sitting their scratching their heads saying "huh?" or just thinking "that's dumb" because they don't know the context.  If BioWare pulls the same thing with Mass Effect 3, relying on the novels and comics to fill in the gaps when most people who play the game have never read those, well, that's just lazy writing.


"Harry Plinkett", in his 70 minute review of "The Phantom Menace", makes a strong point about this - that the only thing that matters was (in that case) the movie, and not the novelization/comic books/video games/etc.

Having other media providing extra depth (like the backstory of Anderson and Saren, or the First Contact War) is OK.  Having them provide necessary information to understand the plot and avoid head-scratching - isn't.

#282
Mariquis

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I thought maybe the collector plague was simply a shortcut. Harvest the humans and let the rest die via disease since they are unsuitable.

#283
Iakus

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Mariquis wrote...

I thought maybe the collector plague was simply a shortcut. Harvest the humans and let the rest die via disease since they are unsuitable.


A good concept, but it's not something that got explained in the game's plot.  As far as the game goes, the plague is somthing that just sorta happened on a lark.  As far as we know it's retaliation for Aria's interference earlier (anther event that didn't happen in the game itself) 

In addition, we don't even know what it is that made humanity "suitable'.  Harbringer's lines concerning the other races are not implemented, I believe (I never heard them in-game, at least) so that makes them about as canon as Executor Pallin being killed in the geth attack

#284
hawat333

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I hope they keep the lore intact for the third game.

I mean they created a lore for/in the first game.

When you create a lore, it sets up rules and laws for that world.

They didn't abide their laws in the second game, which - in terms of lore - is a fatal mistake.



So if they come with the Mass Relays actually being organic species only for Shepard to have sex with one, I quit.

#285
scorptatious

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hawat333 wrote...

So if they come with the Mass Relays actually being organic species only for Shepard to have sex with one, I quit.


You do realize that you have just spawned a whole bunch of Rule 34 by saying that right?

#286
Sable Phoenix

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I've finally come to the conclusion that the only way the story of mass Effect 2 makes any sense at all is if the Illusive Man is lying the entire time, to everyone, even Miranda and Kelly.  We watched him outright lie about Liara (he knew very well Liara would not be working with the Shadow Broker, as did Miranda), presumably in an effort to keep her away from Shepard as long as possible, so it's within his modus operandi to do so when it serves his purposes.  All along he feeds Shepard dribs and drabs of information, always far less that he has on hand.  He knew (or "suspected", as he puts it) what Shepard would find on Freedom's Progress, meaning that mission was more to get Shepard on board with the program than anything.  He knew the Virmire survivor was on Freedom's Progress, since he engineered the whole thing.  He knew the "derelict" Collector ship was a trap, again because he set it up.  As soon as Shepard finishes infiltrating the Collector base, he's right there, demanding Shepard preserve said base.  How'd he know that there would even be a base on the other side of the relay that would require a ground team to infiltrate?  From all the intelligence gathered by Shepard's team (which isn't much), we would be more likely to find a pure space engagement on the other side of the relay, nothing but ship-to-ship encounters and combat in deep space.  Yet we spend all this time gathering a ground team of specialists that is likely to be utterly useless.  Why would the Illusive Man have Shepard spend so much time in a potentially wasted activity, unless he knew it would not, in fact, be wasted?  Nothing that happens in the game happens without his say-so, at least until the very end when you have the chance to tell him to suck it.

"Information is my weapon, Shepard."  I think it's safe to say that the Illusive Man knew exactly what we'd find on the other side of the Omega 4 Relay.  The story makes a whole heck of a lot more sense that way, if the entire thing was just his massive gambit to acquire Collector/Prothean/Reaper technology for his own purposes.  Why he would do it this way isn't terribly important, presumably to make Cerberus into a galactic power organization the equal or better of the STG and the Spectres and the Shadow Broker's operation.  It makes a lot of things fall into place that wouldn't otherwise.

The only thing that still doesn't make sense is, why bring Shepard, specifically, back for this at all?  Beyond the horrendous expense of it all, there is nothing that Shepard ultimately ends up accomplishing that couldn't have been accomplished by any crack commando squad.  The explanation is there if only BioWare had inserted one line of dialogue to highlight it: the Prothean visions and the Cipher.  It would make a whole ton of sense if Shepard's translation matrix implanted in the neural patterns by the Beacon and Shiala had turned out to be necessary to accomplish anything in the base.  But no, Illusive Man mentions not a word of this.  I suppose it's a good thing, then, that the Collectors use convenient haptic adaptive holograms just like everyone else in the galaxy and their technology is easily interfaced to an omnitool.

But that aside, everything in the story makes a whole lot more sense if it's a lie.

... Which is almost satirically funny, come to think of it.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 17 janvier 2011 - 09:22 .


#287
Iakus

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Sable Phoenix wrote...

The only thing that still doesn't make sense is, why bring Shepard, specifically, back for this at all?  Beyond the horrendous expense of it all, there is nothing that Shepard ultimately ends up accomplishing that couldn't have been accomplished by any crack commando squad.  The explanation is there if only BioWare had inserted one line of dialogue to highlight it: the Prothean visions and the Cipher.  It would make a whole ton of sense if Shepard's translation matrix implanted in the neural patterns by the Beacon and Shiala had turned out to be necessary to accomplish anything in the base.  But no, Illusive Man mentions not a word of this.  I suppose it's a good thing, then, that the Collectors use convenient haptic adaptive holograms just like everyone else in the galaxy and their technology is easily interfaced to an omnitool.

But that aside, everything in the story makes a whole lot more sense if it's a lie.

... Which is almost satirically funny, come to think of it.


What you said makes  a weird kind of sense. 

I could understand the recruitment of most of the characters. All are potential threats to Cerberus in general and TIM in particular.  If he could get them killed in a Suicide Mission helping Cerberus, all the better.  But why bring Shepard into this?  All I can think of is there was more to the Lazarus Project than just a Cure for Death, and TIM lied about that too.

#288
Nightwriter

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Interesting, Sable.

If they did that I think it would call attention to the fact that TIM's plan didn't make sense in the first place, which would make me think "Then why didn't they give Shepard some dialogue expressing that TIM's plan didn't make much sense?", which makes me think they aren't planning the string-pull you suggest because they never treated TIM's plan like it was weird or suspicious. If they were going to pull out some grand excuse for their plothole I rather think they'd have hung a lantern on the plothole from the beginning. If they did this, it would look less like a clever precreated plan and more like a giant patch. 

Modifié par Nightwriter, 17 janvier 2011 - 09:45 .


#289
jma2286

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An observation from an earlier post about cybernetics and Shepard:



In the end, the Reapers could very easily indoctrinate Shepard if he already has synthetic aspects to him. Like how Saren's "implants" made him easier to control and more powerful.



It could and would be cool if part of the process in ME3 is fighting off indoctrination, whether within the story or in the climax of the conflict between Shepard and Co. vs. Reapers.

#290
Moiaussi

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Schneidend wrote...

Cows are generally considered inferior to humans, and we need them for protein.

Besides, we don't know if the reapers "need" us. They have no obvious "need" to reproduce, being immortal and so utterly powerful. Harbinger talks about our "ascension" and "salvation", so I think there's still more to learn and you're really jumping the gun here. We just don't know enough about the reapers to make these kind of judgements objectively.


1) Last I checked, we don't hate cows for their being tasty. Or for them being 'inferior.' We simply recognize them as food and generally don't talk down to them on the way to the slaughterhouse.

2) Unless reapers are perpetual motion machines, they need maintenance. Even the citadel has the keepers, and likely they use whatever resources other races bring to the citadel each cycle

#291
PauseforEffect

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Probably been already mentioned but just in case...

The vorcha on Omega. You hear Gavorn and Mordin echoing about how dangerous they could be if they became smart enough. Sounds like a case of if everyone's saying it won't happen, it will.

#292
GuardianAngel470

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Sable Phoenix wrote...

Here's another thing that was never capitalized on... the plague on Omega.

Mordin makes a big deal about how the Collectors were most likely behind it. The vorcha confirm it. What was its purpose? Mordin surmises that it's an experiment with humans as the control group, but we never find out what exactly the purpose was How does it help the Reapers? Was it designed to repurpose other species the way the Protheans were repurposed into the Collectors themselves?

I hope this is expanded on in ME3 (although I doubt it will be), because now, it seems random and pointless.


My best guess is they were testing the viability of a virus that could isolate humanity, the reapers true target. Wipe out all the other species and all you have left are the ones you want, vorcha notwithstanding.

#293
Hyper Cutter

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iakus wrote...

In addition, we don't even know what it is that made humanity "suitable'.  Harbringer's lines concerning the other races are not implemented, I believe (I never heard them in-game, at least) so that makes them about as canon as Executor Pallin being killed in the geth attack

I believe they're implemented, just really rare.

#294
Moiaussi

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Hyper Cutter wrote...

iakus wrote...

In addition, we don't even know what it is that made humanity "suitable'.  Harbringer's lines concerning the other races are not implemented, I believe (I never heard them in-game, at least) so that makes them about as canon as Executor Pallin being killed in the geth attack

I believe they're implemented, just really rare.


Since we now know that the Collectors are working with the Reapers and are modified Protheans, I wouldn't be completely surprised if they through in the twist that it was actually the Reapers that tampered with human evolution, preparing us as food for the next cycle.

#295
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I have thought about this, but... then Shepard himself has to be a lie, too. Given that he basically says "yes, mom" to a former enemy. His persuasion should be at least a mission. But here we got just several lines of text. And then TIM trusts him just like that. The other weird thing is that nobody really reacts to the fact he's resurrected... as if it happens each day hundred times... I don't really care for any emotional reunions or personal revelations, either, but the very few people who were close to him should have had more of those... On this note I disagree that TIM knew it all along, as he seemed genuinely surprised and sincere at various spots, yet not in others (animation/graphics flaws?), and conclude that either it ALL is a lie (simulation... maybe to extract information, which is extra far-fetched, thus unlikely) or it just is as it is...

It's mostly very mixed signals from the characters, on which I just see that whatever was the intent, it is not implemented fully, thus pointless to speculate further.

Modifié par NewMessageN00b, 18 janvier 2011 - 11:11 .


#296
CanadAvenger

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As someone was asking earlier and was never resolved (that I saw)....

Armistan Banes' story was complete in ME1. You find out that he was blackmailing the doctor, and when you follow up with asking Anderson, he forwards you to Admiral Kahoku. Kahoku then tells you that Banes' dead body was discovered on a derelict ship and that a crew was investigating it. This is where you get the assignment where you find that said crew was lured to a Thresher Maw nest. At the very end of this questline, you end up defeating Cerberus, and find that Kahoku was murdered by them.

... Anyway, one thing that I am wondering (that has likely been asked many times elsewhere):

The Illusive Man's eyes. That is all.

Modifié par CanadAvenger, 18 janvier 2011 - 12:13 .


#297
Big I

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Here's my largest "unfired gun": Legion. We spend all of the first game fighting the geth, and the codex say that the geth haven't made peaceful contact with organics in 300 years. Then in the second game we make peaceful contact with the geth. This should have serious political consequences. Instead the Council ignores it.

#298
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One more thing about his eyes is that they change color in the end... That big star on the background of TIM changes color too... I call it a big "WTF" that practically sets his possible ties to bad stuff on the same level with Christmas tree ornaments.

#299
CanadAvenger

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LookingGlass93 wrote...

Here's my largest "unfired gun": Legion. We spend all of the first game fighting the geth, and the codex say that the geth haven't made peaceful contact with organics in 300 years. Then in the second game we make peaceful contact with the geth. This should have serious political consequences. Instead the Council ignores it.


Take Legion on Tali's loyalty quest.

Very, VERY interesting.

#300
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Who is "the General" from UNC Depot Sigma-23?

Modifié par AwesomeEffect2, 08 septembre 2011 - 09:52 .