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[schneeland]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

iakus wrote...

Then in ME2, we get the Quantum Communicators (directly violates the No-Communication Theorem) and Lazarus project. Lazarus is comparatively tame compared to the other severe violations of consistency and physics!

All I know of the communications systems is that it runs on a Quantum Entanglement thingee.  Not being a science guy and relying pretty much on (non-hard) science fiction novels for my information, that should get around the communications problem with FTL.  Messages really would be instantaneous.

While entangled particles, as far as the math and our current observations go, do exist, it is currently impossible to control the state of these particles.  Not to mention the uncertainty principle, which says you can't obeserve something without altering it somehow.  So yes, quantum communicators are currently impossible.  However, I find them a lot more believeable than, say, biotic powers and faster-than-light travel.

Although it probably does not matter that much, quantum communication is possible. The group of Anton Zeilinger has done a lot of excellent work in that area (see e.g. http://www.nature.co...l/nphys629.html).

However, I still don't buy the quantum based video communication with TIM: Actually, in terms of quantum computing we still talk about roughly a quantum byte when dealing with quantum computing. So actually I see Shepard and TIM rather using quantum twitter than holodeck style video conferencing.

But basically you are right: It is still a lot more reasonable than physical FTL travel or the whole biotics fuss. Maybe it only bothers me, because it seemed (again), rather unnecessary for the story.

[Moiaussi]

pacer90 wrote...

Only going by whats told to us in the game bud. Reapers say that transcend that which we know, each are a nation of a lot of individuals. A clone is not an individual, it has no memories or experiences.

1) You are going by what the Reapers told us in the game, which may or may not mean anything. It may be what they believe regardless of fact, it may even just be posturing. They aren't about to say to Shepard 'By the way, we are a bunch of whacked out loons who have no clue what we are really doing. Oh and though we seem powerful, we aren't really... just kill an avatar while we are possessing it and we are easily killable.' Seriously, don't you understand the concept of rhetoric?

2) How many clones have you met? When has someone actually cloned a human in RL that you know so much about it that you can speak as an expert? How in blazes do you think Shepard was ressurrected without cloning the destroyed tissue?

3) I'm not your buddy, pal.

[Sable Phoenix]

We're getting off topic.  The individuality of clones, or lack thereof, is not at debate here, it's a discussion of the writing and story of the game.  Also, there's no need for sniping at each other, as I said in the OP.  That's the way to get a thread closed.  Play nice, please.

Moiaussi wrote...

Nicodemus wrote...

That one is easy, Miri says that if there were any other survivors that they would already be there awaiting the shuttle. The implcation is that there is no one else left alive and if they are they won't be for long on the station. Even though theer are other shuttles available it seems that Miri, Shep and Jacob are jumping into the only one which has a pilot, thus it;s the only shuttle leaving.

Shepard has been N7, a Spectre, and in command of his own frigate, and noone taught him so much as how to pilot a shuttle? If nothing else, wouldn't it have communications?

Shepard's a Marine.  Unless you're training a Marine Aviator, you don't give every Marine recruit a crash course in chopper piloting.  I would imagine a futuristic anti-gravity shuttle capable of astrogation and traveling above lightspeed is vastly more complicated than a helicopter.  I like the idea that Shepard's just a soldier, not a pilot.  Having a protagonist who can do everything gets boring.

It's also a good explanation for why Shepard had no choice but to go with Miranda and Jacob, or be left on the station.  I've heard people say their Shepard would've just shot Miranda and Jacob right there and ditched the station, but that would mean they would've been well and truly stuck there to "rot with the mechs" as Miranda says.  Even assuming Shepard knew how to operate and fly a shuttle, three-dimensional navigation in space is complicated.

I actually think Shepard leaving the station in the company of Jacob and Miranda without a fight makes perfect sense from a writing point of view.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 20 novembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[Moiaussi]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Shepard's a Marine.  Unless you're training a Marine Aviator, you don't give every Marine recruit a crash course in chopper piloting.  I would imagine a futuristic anti-gravity shuttle capable of astrogation and traveling above lightspeed is vastly more complicated than a helicopter.  I like the idea that Shepard's just a soldier, not a pilot.  Having a protagonist who can do everything gets boring.

It's also a good explanation for why Shepard had no choice but to go with Miranda and Jacob, or be left on the station.  I've heard people say their Shepard would've just shot Miranda and Jacob right there and ditched the station, but that would mean they would've been well and truly stuck there to "rot with the mechs" as Miranda says.  Even assuming Shepard knew how to operate and fly a shuttle, three-dimensional navigation in space is complicated.

Actually I would think that a shuttle would be more analogous to a landing craft. Yes it is technically a more complex craft, but shepard seems to do ok with the Mako,  Hammerhead, or flying taxi he pilots in atmosphere in LotSB on Illium, and on the fairly reasonable assumption that computer based navigation will have advanced rather a bit by that era, a lot easier to control than *any* modern space sim.

Even if he couldn't pilot it, are you saying that he couldn't even operate the comm unit? Pardon?

I actually think Shepard leaving the station in the company of Jacob and Miranda without a fight makes perfect sense from a writing point of view.

Even though they didn't even look at the mech controls?

Modifié par Moiaussi, 20 novembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[Nightwriter]

Lol. If there was any kind of situation in the game where Shepard had to enter a drop alone, 10 to 1 we'd see Shepard flying the shuttle solo. They'll just use whatever works in any given situation. Just like, hey, if they need the squad off the ship, they'll create some mysterious mission to get them all off. I think the game developers are slightly less concerned with making sense than you are, though I commend you for it.

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

I think the game developers are slightly less concerned with making sense than you are, though I commend you for it.

Not sure if the 'you' that you are replying to is me or the poster before me. Either way, if the developers aren't making sense, it may not concern them, but doesn't it concern you? And isn't it fair to call them out on it?

[Nightwriter]

Moiaussi wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I think the game developers are slightly less concerned with making sense than you are, though I commend you for it.

Not sure if the 'you' that you are replying to is me or the poster before me. Either way, if the developers aren't making sense, it may not concern them, but doesn't it concern you? And isn't it fair to call them out on it?

"You" means all of you. You're all doing a pretty good job of debating these technicalities, I'm impressed. And yes, it does concern me a bit, but do you truly think calling them out on it will do anything?

Do you think one should say my favorite would-be scenario - that Shepard had escaped Lazarus Station - is impossible because Shepard would be limited by an inability BioWare itself would likely never recognize?

[MadCat221]

On the subject of unfired Chekov's Guns... Did anyone notice Rothla  in the Krogan DMZ? You come into the system and notice that one planet has an accumulation of satellites. When you read the fluff, it reveals that apparently the Krogan developed some mass effect doomsday weapon that misfired, and ended up causing "extreme gravitational lensing", and obviously partially disintegrated the planet.

Reaper bomb?

Modifié par MadCat221, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:46 .

[Aeowyn]

Googlesaurus wrote...

By opening the relay. 

Apparently the Collectors didn't exist until ME2. They were shoehorned in and beg the question of the heretics in the first place. 

Would have made sense if the Collectors actually existed in ME1.

Who's to say they didn't exist in ME1? Just because they haven't been mentioned in the game, it doesn't mean that they don't exist. After all, they are apparently so rare that a lot of people only believe they're a myth.

Googlesaurus wrote...

If they had been traveling for almost 3 years, it would have been shown at the end of ME1. And they were coming out of hibernation.

Your logic is flawed. So just because we don't see them powering up at the end of ME1 it means that they couldn't possibly have started their travel then?

And I agree with what the majority have written here about the whole "death" thing. It was ridiculous. The fact that Shepard only seemed shocked by it in the beginning but then treated it as a "meh" thing. Honestly, it felt like the writers were pissing on everyone who have ever lost someone.
Not to mention the emotional impact on Shepard by having a whole giant mission thrown on her shoulders an hour after she wakes up.
"Hey we brought you back from the dead so you can do this mission for us. You might die on this mission as well, but meh, we spent billions on bringing you back to life, so now we own you."
Very cheap. They could've put her in a coma. Cerberus could've found her body and not told anyone on the outside about it, so the Alliance would classify her as MIA.
If they did this now, I'm scared of what they will do in ME3 for those who managed to get their whole squad and Shepard killed.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 21 novembre 2010 - 12:48 .

[adam_grif]

Iakus wrote...

As for push/pull, high mass fields create artificial gravity.  So I
suppose they're using the fields to create local gravity wells in those
cases (very local, it seems, but whatever)  They're only simulating TK.

But it can't possibly be local, since it is happening to distant objects, but nothing is happening to objects closer to characters. Obviously in-game isn't necessarily canon (otherwise we would have to explaing the complete hilarity of things like BIOTIC CHARGE), but in cutscenes it is simply TK with a blue glow effect around objects. This doesn't get around the problem of remote field generation, and explaining how that happens.

Kinetic barriers seems to be a misnomer, since, again, they're using mass effect fields to create gravity to redirect objects.

The codex states:

"Kinetic barriers are repulsive mass effect fields
projected from tiny emitters. These shields safely deflect small
objects traveling at rapid velocities. This affords protection from
bullets and other dangerous projectiles, but still allows the user to
sit down without knocking away their chair."

Implying that some ME field can "repel" objects, somehow. This is, again, not explained by Eezo physics, but simply "is".

Intertial dampeners are a necessity (fortunate or not) for any sf story
that involves FTL.  Without them, the Collectors wouldn't have to take
humans beyond the Omega-4 Relay to make smoothies ../../../images/forum/emoticons/sick.png 
All I can think of is they use ME fields to counteract the
accelerations needed to achieve faster than light travel, and keep the
crew alive.

I'm not questioning their necessity in the story, I'm stating that the magic in the series cannot just be explained by a single scientific breach in the form of Eezo, but is actually rather far reaching and involves several magics. Mass raising/ lowering has no impact on Inertia. You will get squished into paste regardless of how low or high your mass is.

Another point I should raise is the Ship's artificial gravity. It cannot simply be that they increase the mass of certain regions such that Earth grtavity is generated, because if that were true, gravity would go offline while at FTL speeds, and the mass of the ship would be so great that the engines would have near-zero performance. It must be some other pseudo-gravity effect.

The Relays I'm willing to let go as "Sufficiently Advanced"
technology.  The network is something no race currently in existence
understands.  Except the Reapers.  Even the Protheans were only just
starting to crack how they work when their culling came about..

Nevertheless, it is another magitech that is not explained by Eezo.

All I know of the communications systems is that it runs on a Quantum
Entanglement thingee.  Not being a science guy and relying pretty much
on (non-hard) science fiction novels for my information, that should get
around the communications problem with FTL.  Messages really would be
instantaneous.

You personally not knowing much about the subject is not a defense of the game's physical hardness !

In breif, there is this thing called the "No-Communication Theorem" in Quantum Physics. It states that although QP does sometimes allow for instantaneous actions at a distance, because of the indeterminate nature of quantum systems, the normal random fluctuations of particles can never be distinguished from somebody actively applying changes to it. This prevents any information from being sent via entanglement, since it's all just gibberish anyway.

Physically speaking, achiefing FTL comms in your story by using this would be as bad as achieving FTL travel by saying, "you know how you get up to nearly lightspeed? Well just keep accelerating and you'll go FTL!"

I must say again, in summary, that I'm not saying all this makes Mass Effect bad, just that it demonstrats physical inconsistencies between what the Codex and other people claim is true about the universe, and what is actually demonstrated in the story and cutscenes.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

While entangled particles, as far as the math and our current
observations go, do exist, it is currently impossible to control the
state of these particles.  Not to mention the uncertainty principle,
which says you can't obeserve something without altering it somehow.  So
yes, quantum communicators are currently impossible.  However, I find
them a lot more believeable than, say, biotic powers and
faster-than-light travel.

Quantum Computing yes, but we're discussing entanglement to facilitate FTL communications (which is just as bad as travel, physically speaking). The so called "quantum communicator" does this in ME2.

[Googlesaurus]

Aeowyn wrote...

Who's to say they didn't exist in ME1? Just because they haven't been mentioned in the game, it doesn't mean that they don't exist. After all, they are apparently so rare that a lot of people only believe they're a myth.

Never mentioned by NPCs, never mentioned in the Codex, never referred to in vague terms, never foreshadowed. Sovereign did not contact them for his assault on the Citadel; Collectors were never involved or mentioned in any of Sovereign's plans; the Collectors are never mentioned as a part of galactic history despite being documented making deals on Omega over the course of centuries. They were specifically created for ME2. 

Aeowyn wrote...

Your logic is flawed. So just because we don't see them powering up at the end of ME1 it means that they couldn't possibly have started their travel then?

It's not unreasonable to believe that the end cutscene actually occurs at the chronological end of the game. To believe that the end cutscene occurs prior to the actual game itself without any indication supporting that assertion is flawed logic. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 21 novembre 2010 - 01:01 .

[Iakus]

adam_grif wrote...

You personally not knowing much about the subject is not a defense of the game's physical hardness !

Even more so, it means that even if there is a defense, I couln't really supply it.

I must say again, in summary, that I'm not saying all this makes Mass Effect bad, just that it demonstrats physical inconsistencies between what the Codex and other people claim is true about the universe, and what is actually demonstrated in the story and cutscenes.

And I must say that the Lazarus Project does not even have the fig leaf that the codex entries provided for mass effect fields, biotics and so on.  Fans could grumble over whether this biotic effect or that piece of technology violates what the codex says about mass effect technology.  But where does it say anything about "Lazarus" technology?   There's nothing to argue about because there's nothing said about it.  It simply is.  With no explanation, no context,  no reason why it should exist beyond "Shepard's dead.  We need Shepard to live"

[pacer90]

Moiaussi wrote...

pacer90 wrote...

Only going by whats told to us in the game bud. Reapers say that transcend that which we know, each are a nation of a lot of individuals. A clone is not an individual, it has no memories or experiences.

1) You are going by what the Reapers told us in the game, which may or may not mean anything. It may be what they believe regardless of fact, it may even just be posturing. They aren't about to say to Shepard 'By the way, we are a bunch of whacked out loons who have no clue what we are really doing. Oh and though we seem powerful, we aren't really... just kill an avatar while we are possessing it and we are easily killable.' Seriously, don't you understand the concept of rhetoric?

2) How many clones have you met? When has someone actually cloned a human in RL that you know so much about it that you can speak as an expert? How in blazes do you think Shepard was ressurrected without cloning the destroyed tissue?

3) I'm not your buddy, pal.

I'm not your pal, guy.

[Nightwriter]

The Collector data that went into making Grunt? Big unfired gun. I was actually starving for some character-plot connections, and I was hoping this would be one, but they didn't really do anything with it.

[Super_Fr33k]

First, random thought on the "Chekov's Gun," premise of this thread: I think Chekov's Gun (introducing plot components early with the intent of definitely using them later) is more good advice than an iron law. Rely on it too much, and stories can become predictable. Red herrings (the opposite) are nice sometimes. Good storytelling has guidelines, but not commandments, imo. Whether that puts me in disagreement with anyone or not, just felt like throwing it out there.



First, a few thoughts on plot problems discussed so far:



-- Cerberus:



Many people here have criticized Cerberus as not being a great Renegade choice, given that you always seem to be cleaning up failed, immoral experiments. Keep in mind virtually no one, including Shepard and even Miranda, know Cerberus' true resources. Subsequently, we don't know how many projects they really have, and, subsequently, we don't know their true success rate. I think it's fair to say Cerberus is much more effective than anyone knows, especially since TIM does seem to have immense resources and advanced technology. Spoils do not go to those without victories.



Also, it's a shadowy organization, I doubt a newsletter goes out saying, "Heyyy all mah Cerb Chums! We assassinated important aliens today to help humans, roflmao..."



I do acknowledge, however, that Shepard being forced into working with Cerberus painfully curtails roleplaying choices. As a paragon infiltrator, my Shep would have jumped at winning the crew's loyalty, then stealing the new Normandy and reporting back to the Alliance. I, ultimately, have to give ME2 writers a pass on this; it's a fundamental limitation of any rpg video game. You cannot make a video game that accounts for all possible choices. And, even if you think this was a choice that should have been in the game, it would have cost zots which would be taken away from other aspects of a game that, honestly, is still damn excellent overall.



I also think forcing you to stay with Cerberus sets up a key choice in ME3: what methods Shepard uses to mobilize the galaxy against the Reapers. For a conspiratorial, coercive approach to building an alien army, you'd need a group like Cerberus on your side. A more honest, diplomatic approach might require a paragon Shepard to go a different direction, perhaps leaning on SB Liara more. Either way, I think having to operate above and beyond the Alliance or the Council will prove necessary.



--Lazarus Project:



Yeah, they could have played around a lot more with this. I do think Shepard being stoic about resurrection, or at least not dwelling on it, makes some sense given he's the only person in the whole galaxy working on that whole Reaper thing. If anything, I think Shepard should have had more dialogue feeling guilty or angry about dying in the first place. Regardless, they could have taken it in a lot of different directions.



As to the plausibility or lack thereof for resurrection, I guess I'd quote Billy Crystal's character in Princess Bride: "He's only mostly dead." A cheap out, yeah, but considering all the implausible, bordering on miraculous technologies in ME, being able to revive a mostly intact body doesn't seem that bizarre.



--Collectors:



People seem to think the revelation, "They're going to target Earth," suggests the ship was planning a suicide mission into heavily defended Alliance space, or that it was poised to become much more aggressive. I don't think that's the case. They're named, "Collectors," not "Indestructible Body-Snatchers." I think it's more fair to say that the Reapers, after wiping out all galactic defenses, would bring in the Collector ship to clean up. Nothing we've heard about Reapers so far suggests they'd directly harvest bodies. I think the Reapers, in the interest of efficiency, tend to start harvesting low-hanging fruit before the actual invasion. I also think, despite Sovereign's destruction before opening the Citadel relay, the Reapers are arrogant or even desperate enough to not alter their timeline for harvesting. As I've said in other threads, I think the Reapers have a time frame for harvesting they like to closely adhere to, to prevent species from coming close to figuring out Reaper technology (which they somewhat failed to do with the Protheans).



But wait, if the Collectors weren't imminently going to attack well-protected colonies, which they'd need to complete the human Reaper, why'd they start building the thing to begin with? My response is, why not? I think it's reasonable to assume Reaper fetuses (or w/e you wanna call them) need incubator time, or at least can simmer for a while without any problems. Again, efficiency.



I do agree with many other points brought up about plot holes/inconsistencies, including Shepard not continuing to use his Prothean knowledge in ME2, and here's a few of my own:



-- How'd the Collectors locate the original, stealthed Normandy in the first place? I always thought this was something Shepard should have been able to investigate. Do they have more sophisticated ways of detecting ships? (This would be implausible, given the second Normandy is able to escape them....)



More likely, and more interesting, was that someone within the Alliance or the Council leaked Normandy's patrol routes to the Collectors. That could be a very interesting part of ME3.



-- Why did your original squad mates give up on fighting the Reapers? Everyone on your crew believed in the gravity of the threat. They should have held things together, for at least a while, to keep fighting the good fight. Liara and Wrex's behavior is somewhat plausible here, but Garrus, Tali and Ashley/Kaidan just totally dropped the ball.



-- Why wasn't the Citadel relay, along with the Keepers and other mysterious aspects of the station, fully investigated following Sovereign's attack? It seems like Shepard and the Council could have immediately agreed that the station needed to be fully understood. I've also never liked how nonchalant advanced alien species have been about the mysterious nature of the Citadel and the relays. It seems implausible that any species would easily give up on trying to understand them.



-- Why have Quarians, now adrift for many generations aboard their stations, not more aggressively tried to build up their immune systems? It seems like they've accepted a grave weakness rather than seek to undo it.



There are undoubtedly more things I'll think of later, but I also remain optimistic that ME3 will be good enough to explain many unanswered questions-- at least the most important ones...

[Moiaussi]

Nightwriter wrote...

"You" means all of you. You're all doing a pretty good job of debating these technicalities, I'm impressed. And yes, it does concern me a bit, but do you truly think calling them out on it will do anything?

Do you think one should say my favorite would-be scenario - that Shepard had escaped Lazarus Station - is impossible because Shepard would be limited by an inability BioWare itself would likely never recognize?

The ME2 plot is etched in stone now, of course, but there is the vain hope that criticism might help guide ME3 back to something more resembling (and related to) ME1.

[adam_grif]

But wait, if the Collectors weren't imminently going to attack well-protected colonies, which they'd need to complete the human Reaper, why'd they start building the thing to begin with? My response is, why not? I think it's reasonable to assume Reaper fetuses (or w/e you wanna call them) need incubator time, or at least can simmer for a while without any problems. Again, efficiency.

If this were true, it would completely undo the story of Mass Effect 2. It would have been a monumental waste of time, with nothing ventured on the part of humanity. It is abundantly clear that all involved think that the Collectors are a clear and present threat to Earth.

I don't think they are, because they simply don't have the resources to attack earth, but...

-- How'd the Collectors locate the original, stealthed Normandy in the first place? I always thought this was something Shepard should have been able to investigate. Do they have more sophisticated ways of detecting ships? (This would be implausible, given the second Normandy is able to escape them....)

The SR2 is only Stealthed when they turn Stealth on, and cannot be stealthed during and immediately after an FTL jump. The Collectors were waiting in that patch of space in ambush, and the SR1 dropped out of FTL and then engaged stealth systems. The collectors obviously saw them when they dropped out and moved to pursue.

Stealth systems do NOT shield from active sensors like Lidar, only passive IR detection. Once the Collectors knew there was something to look for, finding and tracking the SR1 is trivial.

Modifié par adam_grif, 21 novembre 2010 - 07:15 .

[Moiaussi]

adam_grif wrote...

The SR2 is only Stealthed when they turn Stealth on, and cannot be stealthed during and immediately after an FTL jump. The Collectors were waiting in that patch of space in ambush, and the SR1 dropped out of FTL and then engaged stealth systems. The collectors obviously saw them when they dropped out and moved to pursue.

Stealth systems do NOT shield from active sensors like Lidar, only passive IR detection. Once the Collectors knew there was something to look for, finding and tracking the SR1 is trivial.

It is a pretty safe bet that the Alliance naval academy teaches coming out of FTL away from major celestial objects such as planets. The Normandy was in orbit when it was ambushed, and IIRC, the cut scene specifies stealth systems were functioning fine.

Active sensors are really problematic in space, for the same reason directed energy weapons are problematic.

[adam_grif]

Moiaussi wrote...

It is a pretty safe bet that the Alliance naval academy teaches coming out of FTL away from major celestial objects such as planets. The Normandy was in orbit when it was ambushed, and IIRC, the cut scene specifies stealth systems were functioning fine.

Active sensors are really problematic in space, for the same reason directed energy weapons are problematic.

The cutscene in question.

Regardless of what you speculate that they teach in the Alliance Naval Academy, they absolutely did come out of FTL just in front of a major celestial body. I have no idea why you thought that I thought Stealth systems weren't functioning fine, what I said was that the stealth systems cannot be used while at FTL, and must be brought online after you jump out of it.

Note Joker says "Shutting down FTL drives...... ...... Internal emissions sink engaged". The stealth was not active for a few moments after they dropped out, during which time they can be seen as any normal spacecraft. The Collectors were ambushing ships, meaning they were waiting for ships to drop out of FTL, and might even have some small sensor drones lying about that picked the SR1 up even if they didn't see the SR1 directly (probably did).

Active sensors are absolutely used in MEverse, I have no idea where you got the idea that they are infeasible from. This is the codex entry on them. The Collectors know the general area where they are in, so they pursued and then picked them up on active sensors to get a weapons lock.

Modifié par adam_grif, 21 novembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Iakus]

Super_Fr33k wrote...


Also, it's a shadowy organization, I doubt a newsletter goes out saying, "Heyyy all mah Cerb Chums! We assassinated important aliens today to help humans, roflmao..."

A shadowy orgsanization that puts its logo on everything and has a rather eye-jarring uniform design  (how I miss the black shirts and cargo pants of the Alliance)  But Ithink I would have respected Cerberus more if TIM owned up to its "evilness"  and said something like:

"Cerberus does terrible things, Shepard.  We both know it and I make no apologies.  Cerberus is a monster.  But it's a monster that fights to keep worse monsters at bay.  Cerberus is a necessity fro human survival in this galaxy.  Whether you approve of our methods or not, we're on the same side in this conflict"

I do acknowledge, however, that Shepard being forced into working with Cerberus painfully curtails roleplaying choices. As a paragon infiltrator, my Shep would have jumped at winning the crew's loyalty, then stealing the new Normandy and reporting back to the Alliance. I, ultimately, have to give ME2 writers a pass on this; it's a fundamental limitation of any rpg video game. You cannot make a video game that accounts for all possible choices. And, even if you think this was a choice that should have been in the game, it would have cost zots which would be taken away from other aspects of a game that, honestly, is still damn excellent overall.

I don't mind having to work for Cerberus, any more than I mind being a Spectre in ME 1.  What I do mind is the lack of opportunities to respond to the situation.  In ME 1, you had a better range of types of Spectre to be.  You can be respectful towards the Council, businesslike, rude.  ou could even cut them off altogether.  You don't get nearly as many opportunities with TIM, and the responses you do have run from agreeable to mildly disapproving.

Yeah, they could have played around a lot more with this. I do think Shepard being stoic about resurrection, or at least not dwelling on it, makes some sense given he's the only person in the whole galaxy working on that whole Reaper thing. If anything, I think Shepard should have had more dialogue feeling guilty or angry about dying in the first place. Regardless, they could have taken it in a lot of different directions.

Agreed.

As to the plausibility or lack thereof for resurrection, I guess I'd quote Billy Crystal's character in Princess Bride: "He's only mostly dead." A cheap out, yeah, but considering all the implausible, bordering on miraculous technologies in ME, being able to revive a mostly intact body doesn't seem that bizarre.

Shep actually says that if you choose the neutral response to C-Sec's response to your being declared dead.

But to me, Shepard was so thoroughly killed that I need an explanation for how Shep was brought back.  This isn't simply a damaged organ, or a nasty disease.  This is "meat and tubes" restored to perfect working order.

But wait, if the Collectors weren't imminently going to attack well-protected colonies, which they'd need to complete the human Reaper, why'd they start building the thing to begin with? My response is, why not? I think it's reasonable to assume Reaper fetuses (or w/e you wanna call them) need incubator time, or at least can simmer for a while without any problems. Again, efficiency.

The problem is the Collectors tipped their hand.  Even if Cerberus hadn't caught on to them, the Alliance was about to.  So what good does it do to start a Reaper that couldn't possibly be finished before the culling is underway anyhow?  I find myself really hoping that there's an answer in ME 3.

-- Why did your original squad mates give up on fighting the Reapers? Everyone on your crew believed in the gravity of the threat. They should have held things together, for at least a while, to keep fighting the good fight. Liara and Wrex's behavior is somewhat plausible here, but Garrus, Tali and Ashley/Kaidan just totally dropped the ball.

-- Why wasn't the Citadel relay, along with the Keepers and other mysterious aspects of the station, fully investigated following Sovereign's attack? It seems like Shepard and the Council could have immediately agreed that the station needed to be fully understood. I've also never liked how nonchalant advanced alien species have been about the mysterious nature of the Citadel and the relays. It seems implausible that any species would easily give up on trying to understand them.

Very good questions.

-- Why have Quarians, now adrift for many generations aboard their stations, not more aggressively tried to build up their immune systems? It seems like they've accepted a grave weakness rather than seek to undo it.

The quarians have always had weak immune systems compared to other species.  they do seem to have immunoboosting implants and treatments. But the simple fact seems to be that they never developed an immune system to compare to humans or other species.

Modifié par iakus, 21 novembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Count Viceroy]

iakus wrote...

The quarians have always had weak immune systems compared to other species.  they do seem to have immunoboosting implants and treatments. But the simple fact seems to be that they never developed an immune system to compare to humans or other species.

Tali explained this, their immune system was adaptive and reactionary rather than preemptive and aggresive like ours is. Weak by comparrison but suited for their enviroment. it was however useless in the artificial life onboard a ship, and thus over the course of generations, the lack of interaction left the immune system horribly weakened, like any other machinery or body part. It's still there, but it would have to be rebooted, Tali expected several generations.

It would however require the quarians to put their foot down, but they seem to have fallen into the comfort zone, despite being all but miserable all the time. Going back to normal life would require immense effort, so why bother when you're safe and sound aboard a ship right?  It might not be optimal, but it works. You're risking your entire species by trying to resettle.

Also, It doesn't help that their leadership is conflicted and most of the quarians seem to think throwing all they have against the geth just for the sake of getting back what was lost seems to be of a bigger concern than moving forward and finding a new home.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 21 novembre 2010 - 08:51 .

[Moiaussi]

adam_grif wrote...

The cutscene in question.

Regardless of what you speculate that they teach in the Alliance Naval Academy, they absolutely did come out of FTL just in front of a major celestial body. I have no idea why you thought that I thought Stealth systems weren't functioning fine, what I said was that the stealth systems cannot be used while at FTL, and must be brought online after you jump out of it.

Note Joker says "Shutting down FTL drives...... ...... Internal emissions sink engaged". The stealth was not active for a few moments after they dropped out, during which time they can be seen as any normal spacecraft. The Collectors were ambushing ships, meaning they were waiting for ships to drop out of FTL, and might even have some small sensor drones lying about that picked the SR1 up even if they didn't see the SR1 directly (probably did).

Active sensors are absolutely used in MEverse, I have no idea where you got the idea that they are infeasible from. This is the codex entry on them. The Collectors know the general area where they are in, so they pursued and then picked them up on active sensors to get a weapons lock.

Re-watch your 'evidence.'

They came out of FTL and engaged stealth. They talk a little, THEN they pick up the Collector ship on the LONG RANGE scanner. After it shows up, it changes course. It shows up on the long range sensors, then changes to an intercept course, which shocks them since stealth was engaged when it changed course.

Sheesh, if you are going to link a source, make sure it says what you think it says

Besides, do you have any idea how big space is? We are led to believe that the collectors only have the one ship.... was it pure luck it happened to show up at the right system at the right time? Or did the Collectors plan on waiting in a random system on the theory that eventually the Normandy would stop by?

Lol appearantly, all they had to do to keep the Terminus systems (and thus the rest of civilization) safe from the Collector threat was to never go to that world.... the Council were right about going into the Terminus systems causing major risks after all! Who knew?

Besides range limits on active sensors (consider, to be better than a passive sensor, they need to put out considerably greater energy output of a ship's EM signature (including that from the engines), since the signal has to go from the scanning ship, bounce off the target, and come back strong enough to be detected. Besides energy dissipating with the square of the distance, the target is not going to be perfectly reflective. Furthermore, by virtue of being a signal, it can be picked up by the target, and at longer ranges than the scanning ship can see the target, since the energy getting to the target has only travelled half the total distance, and does not have the issue of reflection.

So if the Collector vessel 'saw' the Normandy as well as you claim, it pretty much happened because the plot said so rather than any logic or science, which brings us back to the Collectors having inside information and/or some sort of super sensory capacity, both of which options you seem to be trying to dispute.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:48 .

[adam_grif]

Moiaussi wrote...

Re-watch your 'evidence.'

They came out of FTL and engaged stealth. They talk a little, THEN they pick up the Collector ship on the LONG RANGE scanner. After it shows up, it changes course. It shows up on the long range sensors, then changes to an intercept course, which shocks them since stealth was engaged when it changed course.

Sheesh, if you are going to link a source, make sure it says what you think it says

If not for the OP specifying that we are to "keep things civil", this would be where I started directing insults at you.

This is the order of events I am proposing, which provides the most parsimonious explanation:

- The SR1 drops out of FTL.
- The Collectors spot the ship on IR scopes because they are waiting in ambush for ships, OR a sensor drone somewhere around the system does the same.
- The SR1 activates stealth systems.
- The collector ship moves to pursue.
- The SR1 detects the collector ship.
- The Collectors are looking with visible wavelength optics and/or LADAR.
- The collectors spot the SR-1 again and shift course to intercept.
- The collectors use LADAR or whatever equievlant sensors they are using to get a weapons lock, charge, shoot.

Besides, do you have any idea how big space is? We are led to believe that the collectors only have the one ship.... was it pure luck it happened to show up at the right system at the right time? Or did the Collectors plan on waiting in a random system on the theory that eventually the Normandy would stop by?

Is this some kind of joke? Did you actually watch that scene? The collectors were not waiting for the Normandy, specifically. Ships had been going missing in that sector recently. This implies they were waiting to ambush ships. That was also why the SR1 was there, to investigate. The fact that they found them, specifically then, and not earlier or later in their search is coincidence, but they had to run into each other sometime and this is not in need of explanation.

Their precise motivations for ambushing ships was not stated. Blithely assuming they were there specifically to kill you is both bizarre and unjustified. Personally I think they were abducting the crews of civilian ships and blasting the military ones.

Besides range limits on active sensors (consider, to be better than a passive sensor, they need to put out considerably greater energy output of a ship's EM signature (including that from the engines), since the signal has to go from the scanning ship, bounce off the target, and come back strong enough to be detected. Besides energy dissipating with the square of the distance, the target is not going to be perfectly reflective.

The square-cube law only applies when dealing with incoherent radiation (i.e. radio waves), and does not apply to LADAR which uses coherent light to bounce off targets for ranging and detection. The range is thus significantly greater. Even relatively weak return signals can be detected, and you are essentially making up a problem here where none exists.

ACTIVE SENSORS EXIST AND ARE USED, THE CODEX SAYS SO.

Furthermore, by virtue of being a signal, it can be picked up by the target, and at longer ranges than the scanning ship can see the target, since the energy getting to the target has only travelled half the total distance, and does not have the issue of reflection.

And have you considered that the target being detected can only notice they are being scanned if it happens to bounce off photocell receptors on their own hull? Receptors which most likely don't even exist on the SR1 because they would compromise the stealth (i.e. they are not made of whatever magitech stealth material the outer hull is made of)? And even if they do exist, they most assuredly do not cover the entire hull, and the laser could simply have not struck that? Or maybe they did detect it, but were too busy taking evasive manuevers and getting shot at to bother shouting it out to the audience because it's a rather irrelevant plot detail?

Even if they didn't use LADAR, are you aware that the Normandy stealth can be foiled by VISUAL SENSORS? As in, if the Collectors looked out a window they could see them? More likely they have automated optical sensors (small telescopes) that scanned the area! This is an entirely passive sensor that could easily have switched to when the SR1 suddenly disappeaered from their IR scopes.

tl;dr, there is NO NEED to resort to either conspiracy or magical sensors to explain this.

[Moiaussi]

adam_grif wrote...

If not for the OP specifying that we are to "keep things civil", this would be where I started directing insults at you.

This is the order of events I am proposing, which provides the most parsimonious explanation:

- The SR1 drops out of FTL.
- The Collectors spot the ship on IR scopes because they are waiting in ambush for ships, OR a sensor drone somewhere around the system does the same.
- The SR1 activates stealth systems.
- The collector ship moves to pursue.
- The SR1 detects the collector ship.
- The Collectors are looking with visible wavelength optics and/or LADAR.
- The collectors spot the SR-1 again and shift course to intercept.
- The collectors use LADAR or whatever equievlant sensors they are using to get a weapons lock, charge, shoot.

So... despite the fact that the collector vessel only changes course to an intercept course with the Normandy, which is well after stealth was activated, you maintain that the Collectors knew the position of the Normandy right from system entry? If they were already 'moving to pursue', wouldn't they already have been 'on an intercept course?' How do you explain the Normandy not seeing the Collector vessel? Or noticing the LADAR bouncing off the hull? Do you even know what LADAR is? It is the equivalent of shining a large flashlight into space and then watching for reflections. Do you have any idea how large that flashlight has to be to get a meaningful reflection at the ranges we are talking about? How do you explain the Normandy not seeing the large searchlight you claim was pointed at them? "Visible wavelength optics' are likewise problematic, since there they would be dealing with reflected light from other sources.

Is this some kind of joke? Did you actually watch that scene? The collectors were not waiting for the Normandy, specifically. Ships had been going missing in that sector recently. This implies they were waiting to ambush ships. That was also why the SR1 was there, to investigate. The fact that they found them, specifically then, and not earlier or later in their search is coincidence, but they had to run into each other sometime and this is not in need of explanation.

Their precise motivations for ambushing ships was not stated. Blithely assuming they were there specifically to kill you is both bizarre and unjustified. Personally I think they were abducting the crews of civilian ships and blasting the military ones.

A sector is big and the world is barren and uninhabited. You seem to be suggesting that ships FTL into that system, and inexplicably drop FTL long enough to be ambushed even though there is nothing really in the system that would warrant that. It makes sense for the Normandy to be there since the Geth were setting up bases on remote barren worlds in ME1, so it might be a location for a Geth or pirate stronghold or depot, but random shipping?

The square-cube law only applies when dealing with incoherent radiation (i.e. radio waves), and does not apply to LADAR which uses coherent light to bounce off targets for ranging and detection. The range is thus significantly greater. Even relatively weak return signals can be detected, and you are essentially making up a problem here where none exists.

ACTIVE SENSORS EXIST AND ARE USED, THE CODEX SAYS SO.

Try this: Find a dark room and shine a flashlight at the wall. Then look at the flashlight yourself. Which seems brighter to you? The spot on the wall, or looking directly into the flashlight? Weak signals are fine, but even for an object as large as the moon they actually have a reflector set up on the moon's surface specificly for LADAR purposes and they target that reflector directly. And that is the moon, which is how many times larger than the Normandy, and easily detectable passively from Earth?

Active sensors exist and are used, but it if you actually read the detail:

Passive sensors are used for long-range detection, while active sensors obtain short-range, high quality targeting data

And have you considered that the target being detected can only notice they are being scanned if it happens to bounce off photocell receptors on their own hull? Receptors which most likely don't even exist on the SR1 because they would compromise the stealth (i.e. they are not made of whatever magitech stealth material the outer hull is made of)? And even if they do exist, they most assuredly do not cover the entire hull, and the laser could simply have not struck that? Or maybe they did detect it, but were too busy taking evasive manuevers and getting shot at to bother shouting it out to the audience because it's a rather irrelevant plot detail?

Even if they didn't use LADAR, are you aware that the Normandy stealth can be foiled by VISUAL SENSORS? As in, if the Collectors looked out a window they could see them? More likely they have automated optical sensors (small telescopes) that scanned the area! This is an entirely passive sensor that could easily have switched to when the SR1 suddenly disappeaered from their IR scopes.

tl;dr, there is NO NEED to resort to either conspiracy or magical sensors to explain this.

LADAR is used in Alliance and Council fleets, and you figure noone is smart enough to have passive sensors along the hull of the ship? You are essentially saying 'the writing isn't bad, all allied ship designers are merely idiots,' As for looking out a window... sigh... look out a window of your house at night and point out any of saturn's moons. With a telescope, do so simply by scanning the sky. I repeat. Space is big. Looking at all of it at once is problematic.

As for the suggestion that the Normandy has no sensors because they would compromise the stealth, the Normandy's stealth is based on masking its EM signature. If it operated the way you claim, then LADAR really would be useless in the same way that radar bounces off a stealth fighter or bomber (which can still detect radar lock, btw).

An aside: The codex seems to have changed on sensors too... now appearantly passive sensors can detect ships in FTL whereas before (in ME1) ships in FTL were completely invisible. Interesting revision.....

[Sable Phoenix]

Alright, this is turning into an argument and it's also getting way off-topic.  The Collectors detected the Normandy easily before the stealth systems were engaged.  Heck, in ME1, Engineer Adams even says the stealth systems won't work if the ship goes into or comes out of FTL, because it blueshifts the emissions too high for the internal EM sinks to absorb them.  But the Collectors didn't even need the FTL flare, it's impossible to hide a ship in space under normal circumstances.  You could light an engine out past Pluto's orbit and it would be easily detectable on Earth.  This website explains why.

Let's get back to talking about the games' writing.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 21 novembre 2010 - 10:01 .