132 réponses à ce sujet

[Angel-Shinkiro]

Did Bioware say that when the characters die in ME2 they wont appear in 3 because they can do the something similar to what they are gonna do for Shepard.



If Shepard dies you can't carry over him/her, so how about if a character dies it is like you never talked to them or did their loyalty. E.g. Kasumi dies, Hock still has the graybox, if Grunt dies he never joins clan Urdnot. Just an idea that was going around in my head.

[AdmiralCheez]

@Angel: I'm not sure what you said in your first paragraph. However, I believe that whether or not you completed a loyalty quest is recognized separately from whether or not that character survived. After all, ME2 remembers if you were more renegade than paragon in the first one, but recorded major decisions separately from your morality. Also, you could choose the most renegade background possible (earthborn/ruthless), and ME2 would still acknowledge it if you made all paragon decisions. Not that there weren't a couple errors in the system, but for the most part, each decision is recorded individually.

[Angel-Shinkiro]

@Cheez: I wanted to know if Bioware said that if a character died in Me2 will not appear in Me3 or if they only have a permenant death in Me2(can't be used after Suicide Mission).



And I meant to say that if they died in ME2, Bioware can have it as though you never talked to the person or did their loyalty. They can also have a default version of the characters(Never did Jacob's loyalty but did Kasumi's)



Hope I made it easier to understand.

[AdmiralCheez]

@Angel: No, I don't think they'd bring anyone back to life. If you killed Thane in ME2, no Thane for you in ME3. If Thane survives ME2, you MIGHT just get him again in ME3.



Overriding any decisions you made during a character's loyalty quest just because that character died seems stupid, no offense. If I killed Sidonis, but Garrus dies, Sidonis is magically alive again? Don't think so.



Default version will probably be minimal. I expect it will assume that you did some, but not all, loyalty quests. I also expect that it will assume you never recruited Kasumi or Zaeed.

[luakel]

Wow, between this and the "NO ME2 SQUAD" thread it looks like there's alot of discussion and disagreement over just who we're going to get back. I know in one of them there was an idea about having 4 old squaddies and 4 new ones, and that got me thinking about just who those 4 returning squadmates could be, and how they'd handle all 8 to maintain gameplay balance. But I had an idea as to how you could ensure not only that 2 squadmates will return no matter what, but which two it could be.

Basically, both ME games so far have started with some sort of battle, and by the time that battle is over, you have your first 2 squadmates. Both times, these have been new squadmates, and it could easily be argued that the precedent has been set and there's no reason to change it since no 2 ME2 squadmates are guaranteed to be at Shepard's side. But I digress; there are two that, even if they died in the suicide mission, can have direct replacements justified without too much handwaving.

These two are Legion and Grunt. Legion seems like the easiest squadmate to bring back; he's a robot, it can't be too hard for him to backup his programs on the Normandy before the SM. All that's needed to represent this is a different skin and a few extra lines of dialogue, since it would be the same character, just without any awareness of the suicide mission. Even if you sold Legion to Cerberus, he can be brought back; the shadow broker dossier in this case has the Cerberus techies examining him mention how easy it would be to reassemble him. And even if you blew up the Collector base, TIM could see reason to send Legion (and Grunt, as I'll explain below) to protect the person he spent 4 billion $$ on and who's been instrumental in taking down not one but two reapers.

The only problem I see with this is that anyone who purposefully got Legion killed in the SM (assuming anyone did) is going to be disappointed in having their choice overriden, but Legion appears late enough in the story that hopefully few people even have enough time to start hating him.  Plus, having an AI-controlled robot on your team seems like a good idea when fighting a race of evil AI's, so if anyone deserves some plot armor, it'd be Legion.

Grunt's a bit more tricky, since he can't save himself on a disc and reboot if the SM doesn't go so well. But he does have the background of being just the final result of a series of krogan created by Okeer. We even talk with one of the "less perfect" copies on Korlus, and I think it's definitely possible for one of them to make it offworld and eventually end up with Shepard. How this happens would be a bit of a challenge, but if Bioware managed to explain Shepard coming back from the dead, this shouldn't be too hard. They could even make the replacement krogan's personality slightly different from Grunt, since Grunt's not as popular as Legion and there probably are people who want him gone. And if you sold Grunt to Cerberus, he comes back just like Legion would, probably with a personality change due to his captivity. Having a genetically engineered Krogan on your time seems like a good idea; not only was the Genophage a major subplot in both games, but I could see reasons to recruit the Krogan in ME3 regardless of prior choices.

The advantage of Legion and Grunt is that they both have "contingencies" available, whether you sold them to Cerberus or just got them killed off. These alternative options would be able to use the same VA's and require only a few extra lines, minimizing costs. And these contingencies would only appear if you carry over a save where you did either of the two options requiring them; the default game would have loyal versions of Legion and Grunt as your first two squadmates. Might be a bit confusing to brand new players, but Legion seems like the kind of character who could do exposition well and even funnily if needed.

These two could serve as the basis of your squad, with the 4 new squadmates filling out the other classes, to create a 6 class squad like in ME1. Grunt would probably fall under Soldier, and Legion's definitely an Infiltrator, so we'd need 4 characters who fill the other classes (biotic god volus for adept? ). 2 of these could be male and 2 could be female, and all could be romanceable, to keep that aspect of the game.

As for the two other returning squadmates, who knows. I'm leaning towards Tali and Garrus, both because they provide a nice sense of continuity with previous games and because both of them seem like they could fit into the story well (Garrus is the guy you'd want leading your squad if you can't and even the Shadow Broker acknowledges his leadership abilities, Tali is an exceptional engineer from what is probably the greatest species of engineers in the galaxy, very useful when fighting a bunch of evil machines). Plus they may have the 2 most vocal fanbases (if not the largest) of all the characters, so keeping them would appease alot of people. Sure, there's the problem of carrying over the loyalty missions, but you can't fail Garrus's if you do it, and if you screw up Tali's, she's likely to die on the SM.

But Garrus and Tali would only appear if playing the default game or using a save where they survived; if you killed them off, you get a 6 person squad with one squaddie per class. Who says consequences don't count?

As for the other squad members... I could see both Miranda and Mordin being Normandy-only characters. Miranda is the XO and needs to maintain the Normandy while Shep's away (seriously, when did Pressly ever leave the first Normandy?), and Mordin's too busy doing things FOR SCIENCE in his lab to go shoot people. They could comment on your missions in the same way Joker does after each one, and Miri would have extra dialogue if you romanced her. How they'd be handled as far as saves/default is hard to tell, but I think the two of them could round out the list of SM survivors in the default and only have replacements if you killed them off (Mordin's nephew, some random XO-worthy candidate)

How the other LI's would show up... Liara will be Mission Control at the Shadow Broker Base, giving missions and intel and having extra content if you romanced her. Kaiden or Ashley may serve a similar role, being your liason with the Alliance, though it'd be nice to see it done in a way that recognizes them as 2 different people and not just placeholders. Jacob could be on the Normandy only if you romanced him in ME2, otherwise he either died in the vents or is off commanding some operation elsewhere and shows up for a mission or two. Jack and Thane both have reasons to leave if you didn't romance them (Thane to be with his son, Jack to go kill people), but both of them could be more prominent with a romance. It'd be nice to get a Thane death scene handled properly instead of killing him offscreen, but it all depends how much space there is.

Zaeed & Kasumi are DLC, so they'll get cameos at best. Morinth continues serial killing if you saved her, otherwise Samara leaves to continue her work as a Justicar. How any cameo by her could be dealt with, who knows; she may try to kill a renegade, but would gladly help a paragon. And Wrex will rally the krogan to help you if he was saved in ME1.

Where all the other NPCs go, who knows? Aria would be a cool squadmate (especially if she meets up with Wrex), but I doubt she'd abandon Omega. Gianna and Shi'ala can both die in ME1, so they'd get cameos at best, and only with a save file. Kal'Reegar can die if you don't Paragon interrupt him soon enough, so I'd bet he's a cameo too. Anderson... probably has bigger role than sitting on the Citadel and complaining about it, but I don't see him as a squadmate either. Maybe another mission giver. TIM could be an antagonist, but as mentioned above, I don't see him just throwing away his 4 billion credit investment in Shepard, nor can I really see him putting personal gain or a vendetta above stopping the reapers. Conrad Verner...

Personally, I'm just hoping Blasto will be the ninth squadmate, only through Day 1 DLC, with every possible power maxed out; nothing puts fear into the heart of a Reaper like a hanar with a lover in every port and a gun in every tentacle.

Modifié par luakel, 22 novembre 2010 - 07:48 .

[AdmiralCheez]

@luakel: At first, the Grunt and Legion thing seems kind of silly, but it seems way less over-the-top than bringing Shepard back from the dead. Therefore, hell, it could work!



Your analysis of possible returning squadmates makes a lot of sense, and I am again seeing patterns. Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Grunt, especially. There also seems to be a general consensus that Samara/Morinth gets a cameo. I wonder if our conclusions are similar to those reached by the devs...



BLASTO DLC. YES. OH GOD YES. WITH BABY HANAR FOR YOUR FISH TANK.

[BrokenPolygon]

So…. If Grunt was killed he’s replaced by another of Okeer’s krogans (because we can assume a bunch of the others looked exactly like him, but his personality of course will be different) or Cerberus speed re-grew another Grunt using Okeer’s technology they salvaged, and the original Grunt’s personality was implanted using the Glass Mother learning bed and EDI’s bio scans of his brain?



As much as I’d love reincarnated Shep to have an existential conversation with a clone Grunt over how he feels about being a copy, and how Shep feels about maybe being a digital imprint of the original Shep’s memories projected onto a reprocessed corpse, I think this is unlikely.



Legion is doable though for initial team. As is Liara and VS. As is two brand new squadies.



I think (like it seems a few others do) we might get Liara and VS, as well as at least two new squadies (and I also would like to see a Batarian and Female Turian), and a few (4-6) of the ME2 squad. And that whoever was foolish enough to somehow not get everyone out of the Suicide mission when it was so easy not to, or purposely killed some, and imported that game anyway, should just not get those characters. That would still leave 4 characters which would be doable, though limiting in choices, and still give Bioware the opportunity to have two of them die dramatically for story purposes and still have a squad.

[Aurica]

Gosh the Hanar Squadmate idea is so ridiculous and silly.  But I approve!  He/She will have awesome battlecries like "Enkindle this!!!".  Ability to wield multiple weapons, multi-task & even choke you in close combat.   It will be so RAD

[Moondoggie]

This whole basis that Zaaed and Kasumi are out because they are DLC is a bit off since as far as i know both were supposed to be in ME2 but were turned into DLC for whatever reason.



I personally would like to have the same squad in ME3 but the notion of starting with all those squad mates seems a bit silly. But then so does playing another game where 3/4 of it is spent on recruitment and loyalty missions. I really don't want to play the same game with different characters it feels redundant.



I do fear for ME3 because Bioware has a butt fetish for creating new characters and dumping the old ones as quick as they can. The ammount of rage caused by Wrex,Liara and Ashley/Kaiden playing such minor roles in ME2 would be nothing compared to the rage caused by cutting almost everyone out of ME3 in favour of some new characters that we don't really care for.



I think no matter who they cut out it'll upset some people so it's really best to keep them all in as squadmates and find a way to split you all up at the begining. I know the game is likely already in development so ideas on the games story won't matter at this point but i always felt a way of doing that would work with an idea somebody said in another thread a while back.



Basically the begining starts with the Normandy surrounded by Council forces with Shepard and crew taken in for crimes (possibly decision made under reaper influences although between that damn Turian and Udina the council seems out to get you anyways) Everyone is inprisoned in seperate places and Shepard is put on trial found guility and sentenced to death. Anderson needing to do something links up with the VS and another probably Garrus or Tali and they bust you out. You and those squadmates need to fight your way out the prison bust Joker out and steal the Normandy back to make your escape.



Then the rest of it is about finding the others and linking up with Shepards allies to convince people of the reaper threat and make ready defences.



It's a bit plotholey but i think it'd work out you get the ME2 squad back but not right away from the very begining.

[Da_Lion_Man]

Angel-Shinkiro wrote...

@Cheez: I wanted to know if Bioware said that if a character died in Me2 will not appear in Me3 or if they only have a permenant death in Me2(can't be used after Suicide Mission).

And I meant to say that if they died in ME2, Bioware can have it as though you never talked to the person or did their loyalty. They can also have a default version of the characters(Never did Jacob's loyalty but did Kasumi's)

Hope I made it easier to understand.

I know it sucks, I lost Legion and Zaeed on my canon playthrough but you'll just have to deal with it. That's partially what this game is about, decisions. 

[Da_Lion_Man]

luakel wrote...

Wow, between this and the "NO ME2 SQUAD" thread it looks like there's alot of discussion and disagreement over just who we're going to get back. I know in one of them there was an idea about having 4 old squaddies and 4 new ones, and that got me thinking about just who those 4 returning squadmates could be, and how they'd handle all 8 to maintain gameplay balance. But I had an idea as to how you could ensure not only that 2 squadmates will return no matter what, but which two it could be.

Basically, both ME games so far have started with some sort of battle, and by the time that battle is over, you have your first 2 squadmates. Both times, these have been new squadmates, and it could easily be argued that the precedent has been set and there's no reason to change it since no 2 ME2 squadmates are guaranteed to be at Shepard's side. But I digress; there are two that, even if they died in the suicide mission, can have direct replacements justified without too much handwaving.

These two are Legion and Grunt. Legion seems like the easiest squadmate to bring back; he's a robot, it can't be too hard for him to backup his programs on the Normandy before the SM. All that's needed to represent this is a different skin and a few extra lines of dialogue, since it would be the same character, just without any awareness of the suicide mission. Even if you sold Legion to Cerberus, he can be brought back; the shadow broker dossier in this case has the Cerberus techies examining him mention how easy it would be to reassemble him. And even if you blew up the Collector base, TIM could see reason to send Legion (and Grunt, as I'll explain below) to protect the person he spent 4 billion $$ on and who's been instrumental in taking down not one but two reapers.

The only problem I see with this is that anyone who purposefully got Legion killed in the SM (assuming anyone did) is going to be disappointed in having their choice overriden, but Legion appears late enough in the story that hopefully few people even have enough time to start hating him.  Plus, having an AI-controlled robot on your team seems like a good idea when fighting a race of evil AI's, so if anyone deserves some plot armor, it'd be Legion.

Grunt's a bit more tricky, since he can't save himself on a disc and reboot if the SM doesn't go so well. But he does have the background of being just the final result of a series of krogan created by Okeer. We even talk with one of the "less perfect" copies on Korlus, and I think it's definitely possible for one of them to make it offworld and eventually end up with Shepard. How this happens would be a bit of a challenge, but if Bioware managed to explain Shepard coming back from the dead, this shouldn't be too hard. They could even make the replacement krogan's personality slightly different from Grunt, since Grunt's not as popular as Legion and there probably are people who want him gone. And if you sold Grunt to Cerberus, he comes back just like Legion would, probably with a personality change due to his captivity. Having a genetically engineered Krogan on your time seems like a good idea; not only was the Genophage a major subplot in both games, but I could see reasons to recruit the Krogan in ME3 regardless of prior choices.

The advantage of Legion and Grunt is that they both have "contingencies" available, whether you sold them to Cerberus or just got them killed off. These alternative options would be able to use the same VA's and require only a few extra lines, minimizing costs. And these contingencies would only appear if you carry over a save where you did either of the two options requiring them; the default game would have loyal versions of Legion and Grunt as your first two squadmates. Might be a bit confusing to brand new players, but Legion seems like the kind of character who could do exposition well and even funnily if needed.

These two could serve as the basis of your squad, with the 4 new squadmates filling out the other classes, to create a 6 class squad like in ME1. Grunt would probably fall under Soldier, and Legion's definitely an Infiltrator, so we'd need 4 characters who fill the other classes (biotic god volus for adept? ). 2 of these could be male and 2 could be female, and all could be romanceable, to keep that aspect of the game.

As for the two other returning squadmates, who knows. I'm leaning towards Tali and Garrus, both because they provide a nice sense of continuity with previous games and because both of them seem like they could fit into the story well (Garrus is the guy you'd want leading your squad if you can't and even the Shadow Broker acknowledges his leadership abilities, Tali is an exceptional engineer from what is probably the greatest species of engineers in the galaxy, very useful when fighting a bunch of evil machines). Plus they may have the 2 most vocal fanbases (if not the largest) of all the characters, so keeping them would appease alot of people. Sure, there's the problem of carrying over the loyalty missions, but you can't fail Garrus's if you do it, and if you screw up Tali's, she's likely to die on the SM.

But Garrus and Tali would only appear if playing the default game or using a save where they survived; if you killed them off, you get a 6 person squad with one squaddie per class. Who says consequences don't count?

As for the other squad members... I could see both Miranda and Mordin being Normandy-only characters. Miranda is the XO and needs to maintain the Normandy while Shep's away (seriously, when did Pressly ever leave the first Normandy?), and Mordin's too busy doing things FOR SCIENCE in his lab to go shoot people. They could comment on your missions in the same way Joker does after each one, and Miri would have extra dialogue if you romanced her. How they'd be handled as far as saves/default is hard to tell, but I think the two of them could round out the list of SM survivors in the default and only have replacements if you killed them off (Mordin's nephew, some random XO-worthy candidate)

How the other LI's would show up... Liara will be Mission Control at the Shadow Broker Base, giving missions and intel and having extra content if you romanced her. Kaiden or Ashley may serve a similar role, being your liason with the Alliance, though it'd be nice to see it done in a way that recognizes them as 2 different people and not just placeholders. Jacob could be on the Normandy only if you romanced him in ME2, otherwise he either died in the vents or is off commanding some operation elsewhere and shows up for a mission or two. Jack and Thane both have reasons to leave if you didn't romance them (Thane to be with his son, Jack to go kill people), but both of them could be more prominent with a romance. It'd be nice to get a Thane death scene handled properly instead of killing him offscreen, but it all depends how much space there is.

Zaeed & Kasumi are DLC, so they'll get cameos at best. Morinth continues serial killing if you saved her, otherwise Samara leaves to continue her work as a Justicar. How any cameo by her could be dealt with, who knows; she may try to kill a renegade, but would gladly help a paragon. And Wrex will rally the krogan to help you if he was saved in ME1.

Where all the other NPCs go, who knows? Aria would be a cool squadmate (especially if she meets up with Wrex), but I doubt she'd abandon Omega. Gianna and Shi'ala can both die in ME1, so they'd get cameos at best, and only with a save file. Kal'Reegar can die if you don't Paragon interrupt him soon enough, so I'd bet he's a cameo too. Anderson... probably has bigger role than sitting on the Citadel and complaining about it, but I don't see him as a squadmate either. Maybe another mission giver. TIM could be an antagonist, but as mentioned above, I don't see him just throwing away his 4 billion credit investment in Shepard, nor can I really see him putting personal gain or a vendetta above stopping the reapers. Conrad Verner...

Personally, I'm just hoping Blasto will be the ninth squadmate, only through Day 1 DLC, with every possible power maxed out; nothing puts fear into the heart of a Reaper like a hanar with a lover in every port and a gun in every tentacle.

Doesn't Legion say something in the lines of "Can't find back-up" when he dies?

[Moondoggie]

[/quote]Doesn't Legion say something in the lines of "Can't find back-up" when he dies?[/quote]


He says he's backing up files then his last line is "No Carrier" repeated over and over until he dies

[Da_Lion_Man]

Moondoggie wrote...

Doesn't Legion say something in the lines of "Can't find back-up" when he dies?

He says he's backing up files then his last line is "No Carrier" repeated over and over until he dies

So I guess that means he couldn't find any back-up, since there is no carrier?

[BrokenPolygon]

Huh... well I guess you learn something everyday. That would mean he couldn't make a backup then. Not that he couldn't find one. Legion is out for a magical return from the dead then. Or at least those specific programs.

[Da_Lion_Man]

BrokenPolygon wrote...

Huh... well I guess you learn something everyday. That would mean he couldn't make a backup then. Not that he couldn't find one. Legion is out for a magical return from the dead then. Or at least those specific programs.

You think he could have made a back-up before the suicide mission? I mean, it would be rather stupid not to do that and Legion isn't dumb.

[Lowenhart]

Think what we will see is alot of the people Bioware wanna get rid of died canon wise during suicide mission, in a new game. Transferred characters who let all their members survive will take in cameo roles most them, or leave without a major explanation like, time period leaps.

Modifié par Lowenhart, 22 novembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[luakel]

Da_Lion_Man wrote...

BrokenPolygon wrote...

Huh... well I guess you learn something everyday. That would mean he couldn't make a backup then. Not that he couldn't find one. Legion is out for a magical return from the dead then. Or at least those specific programs.

You think he could have made a back-up before the suicide mission? I mean, it would be rather stupid not to do that and Legion isn't dumb.

Yeah, if Legion died in the suicide mission he just has a backup copy with memories of everything up to the suicide mission. Have a few fewer/extra lines and a different skin (since the N7 armored one was lost), and it can be handled easily at ME3's beginning. What happened on the Collector Base was just an automated process trying to upload his current data to a geth hub, no reason why this keeps him from storing a copy of his programs on the Normandy.

Lowenhart wrote...

Think what we will see is alot of the
people Bioware wanna get rid of died canon wise during suicide mission,
in a new game. Transferred characters who let all their members survive
will take in cameo roles most them, or leave without a major explanation
like, time period leaps.

But who would Bioware want to get rid of? There are a few cases where likely story importance matches up well with fan popularity (c.f. Legion vs. Jacob), which makes some characters more expendable than others, but I doubt any of the characters will be confirmed as dead in "canon." I really doubt all 12 will reappear in the default, but if any were actually meant to die in canon, then the SM would have had them die no matter what.

[Lowenhart]

Well they likely gonna clear for new crew slots, letting people die on suicide mission easiest way to do that, and only leaves making them cameo with few lines in ME3 for those who let them survive, again most rpg clean tables with every new release, occasionally a few who still has character or storyline development potential usually carried over either as full members or cameo, rest usually discarded either through death or some short explanation.

Modifié par Lowenhart, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Yes, Lowenhart, but that would make the Talimancers angry. VERY angry.



That aside, nothing's stopping Bioware from breaking the pattern. They are WAY ahead of the game in a lot of other departments, anyway.



And this isn't a "no one's coming back" thread, this is a "if anyone returns, who?" thread.

[Alienmorph]

Also, besides the Talimancer thing, why so many people wants the ME2 chars put aside or killed in the first 5 minutes of the game? I mean... even I dislike Jack I'd never says "I want her dead immediately"... she's part of the saga and need her rightful place, as anyother. We are all Bioware's paying clients, right? If we insist enough we can hope that seying how boring we are about that (xD) our favourite chars we'll still have a decent development in the last game. But if we all thiks that everyone's lost anyway, there will be more chance that this happens.

[Talogrungi]

[quote]Moondoggie wrote...


[/quote]Doesn't Legion say something in the lines of "Can't find back-up" when he dies?[/quote]


He says he's backing up files then his last line is "No Carrier" repeated over and over until he dies[/quote]

Was always a bit confused why we couldn't just yank his hard-drive when he dies.

Also mildly disappointed that his dying works weren't "urk, bluescreen.."

[Googlesaurus]

A copy of Legion already exists in the geth neural network. All the geth need to do is restore the programs that composed Legion from archival storage. It won't have the information that Legion obtained after entering the Omega 4 Relay, but it's wise to bet that the data of his previous experiences were send to the main network. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 22 novembre 2010 - 10:12 .

[NoMoreGeth]

Whatever happens...it's gonna be epicly complicated. I was just thinking about all the possibilities for everything...now I just feel sorry for the Bioware team. But I know they won't let us down!

[Reaper S1x]

Legion needs to come back. That is all.

[Da_Lion_Man]

So I guess it's safe to say Legion has a good chance of becoming a squad member, dead/broken or not.