92 réponses à ce sujet

[2papercuts]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

2papercuts wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Really? Which ones? Seriously, I'd love to check them out.

unless i didn't understand Onyx Jaguar thats a fairly common ending

for example Braid

That sounds right, but obviously in a fairly simplistic manner. Any others you know of?

Shutter Island kind of had that twist
the book did, would guess the movie did but don't know for sure

Modifié par 2papercuts, 21 novembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[Maria Caliban]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

That sounds right, but obviously in a fairly simplistic manner. Any others you know of?

You're just asking for a story where the main character is the bad guy?

[Ziggeh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You're just asking for a story where the main character is the bad guy?

Yes, but for morally justifiable reasons!

[Maria Caliban]

'Morally justified bad guy' is very subjective, but have you checked out the works of Abercrombie? Best Served Cold, for example, is the story of mercenary general who's betrayed by the lord that hired her and the bloody revenge she seeks.

A Song of Ice and Fire qualifies in my mind.

Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series has some of that but it has a massive cast.

Bakker's Prince of Nothing series.

I'd include Night Angel and the Gentleman Bastard series, but that depends on if you think assassins and thieves who murder are inherently 'bad guys.'

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:13 .

[Ziggeh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

'Morally justified bad guy' is very subjective, but have you checked out the works of Abercrombie? Best Served Cold, for example, is the story of mercenary general who's betrayed by the lord that hired her and the bloody revenge she seeks.

A Song of Ice and Fire qualifies in my mind.

Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series has some of that but it has a massive cast.

Bakker's Prince of Nothing series.

I'd include Night Angel and the Gentleman Bastard series, but that depends on if you think assassins and thieves who murder are inherently 'bad guys.'

Aww, I wish I had the patience to read more. A life time of cheap television and video gaming has left me with the attention span of an 8 year old full of sherbert, but I'll check them out, cheers!

[Maria Caliban]

Okay... What about: the Legacy of Kain games, Fight Club, Momento, and Sexy Beast.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 novembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[SirOccam]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Bioware is our main antagonist in DA 2, until the modding community can give us back dwarven and elven PCs, dual wielding and archery for warriors, a mute button for the protagonist, more PC and NPC customization and a bunch of other things.

I sence much entitlement in you.

Not entitlement, just a sensation that DA 2 is moving backwards in regards to game design on many levels.

Of course, if your ideas of what makes a good game are backwards, then moving forward would look like moving backwards to you. Something to think about.

[Ziggeh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Okay... What about: the Legacy of Kain games, Fight Club, Momento, and Sexy Beast.

Momento is a pretty good example of what I mean really, except if I remember rightly he's misled. So his actions are morally justified (well, sort of, hollywood morality) based on the information that he has at the time rather than because he was standing on that side of the trenches, as it were.

At the risk of further disrailment: Caesar from New Vegas is a great example. He's nailing people to things, murdering whole towns and making people slaves. When first encountered I was dissapointed that they were such an "easy" enemy to justify sniping from draw distance. But after talking to the guy, he really made me think about whether his ideology: survival at all costs, wasn't what was best for the Mojave in the long run after all. No need for anyone to point out the flaws in his thinking, I've been through them on other forums and alone, but I found it fascinating to have my morality questioned in that way. Maybe I shouldn't automatically apply it in a world that is radically different to my own.

[hexaligned]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

You're just asking for a story where the main character is the bad guy?

Yes, but for morally justifiable reasons!

Ah, I thought you meant in a more Don Quixote-ish way.  Where the PC's perceptions are actully askew, and not just fodder for a debate on subjectivity.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The use of three exclamation points within the title surely got your blood pumping.

In the Mass Effect series we have Reapers! for the Commander to defeat. These dastardly creatures would destroy all advanced organic races to turn us into a gooey paste if not for our valiant SPECTRE.

In Dragon Age: Origins, we had the Blight! for the Warden to face off against. These dastardly creatures would destroy all non-darkspawn people and turn Thedas into a wasteland if nor for our brave Grey Warden.

In Dragon Age 2 we have... a mystery! We know that Hawke will become the Champion of Kirkwall, but what is the central conflict for the story? Who is our main antagonist that Hawke must go against?

Isn't it obvious? Hawke will join forces with Shepard to stop the Reapers and their Darkspawn minions.

[Ziggeh]

relhart wrote...

Ah, I thought you meant in a more Don Quixote-ish way.  Where the PC's perceptions are actully askew, and not just fodder for a debate on subjectivity.

That'd be interesting too. I'm a big terry gilliam fan, so the subjective nature of reality is definitely something I feel is worth exploring. I'm liking the sound of the unreliable narrator in a medium that we tend to assume is fixed and certain, for example.

[Piecake]

Derengard wrote...

They copy some bossfight from an old PS1-title and call it a new direction, better graphics and all. And there'll be a dialog-option where you can apply your relativism skills to convince the enemy that he's nonexistent but that there actually stands a more original character in place of him.

Pyscho Mantis

And all the PC gamers cry and wail in horror as he curb stomps their butts because they dont have controllers (Also a PC user, but that would be totally hilarious).

As for conflict, Ive always found black and white conflicts a bit dull.  So I am hoping for a bunch of grey where you are just a lighter shade than your enemies.  Since it revolves around a city I have a feeling that that might be the case, queue political intrigue, treason and a lot of backstabbery.  

[Maria Caliban]

Piecake wrote...

As for conflict, Ive always found black and white conflicts a bit dull.  So I am hoping for a bunch of grey where you are just a lighter shade than your enemies.  Since it revolves around a city I have a feeling that that might be the case, queue political intrigue, treason and a lot of backstabbery.  

I've noticed that many 'morally grey' stories are black and off-white.

A Song of Ice and Fire, for example, has a number of clearly bad people with a large number of good but working against one another types.

[SirOccam]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Piecake wrote...

As for conflict, Ive always found black and white conflicts a bit dull.  So I am hoping for a bunch of grey where you are just a lighter shade than your enemies.  Since it revolves around a city I have a feeling that that might be the case, queue political intrigue, treason and a lot of backstabbery.  

I've noticed that many 'morally grey' stories are black and off-white.

A Song of Ice and Fire, for example, has a number of clearly bad people with a large number of good but working against one another types.

I don't think there are that many clearly bad or clearly good people. I mean, aside from maybe Tywin Lannister, Lysa Arryn, Joffrey, and maybe one or two others, there's no "evil" person I haven't found myself rooting for on at least one occasion. Even Cersei is a sympathetic character at times.

As for "good" people...I don't even know who I'd classify in that way aside from probably Eddard. Jon Snow too, maybe.

I think most people in that series are out for themselves and/or their House. In fact, my absolute favorite characters are all sort of loose cannons...you never quite know what they're going to do next. Jaime, Arya, Tyrion, Littlefinger, etc. I wouldn't put any of those people on one side or the other, and yet they are my favorites, and I think that's exactly why the morally grey idea Piecake is talking about is such a good one (yes, I got back on-topic!).

When characters are unequivocally good or evil, you're sort of being told who to like or dislike. With characters like the ones I mentioned, some of them I really want to see acting "good" (Jaime, Tyrion, etc.) and others I want to see them be "bad" (Arya especially...she kicks so much ass). And still others I just want to sit back and watch them play the Game (Littlefinger). It's hard to want the "good guys" to win when you're not even sure who the "good guys" are. That makes you look deeper into the characters and their motivations, and I think the series is all the more enjoyable for it.

Modifié par SirOccam, 22 novembre 2010 - 04:16 .

[Satti1]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The use of three exclamation points within the title surely got your blood pumping.

In the Mass Effect series we have Reapers! for the Commander to defeat. These dastardly creatures would destroy all advanced organic races to turn us into a gooey paste if not for our valiant SPECTRE.

In Dragon Age: Origins, we had the Blight! for the Warden to face off against. These dastardly creatures would destroy all non-darkspawn people and turn Thedas into a wasteland if nor for our brave Grey Warden.

In Dragon Age 2 we have... a mystery! We know that Hawke will become the Champion of Kirkwall, but what is the central conflict for the story? Who is our main antagonist that Hawke must go against?

jim demint is the main antagonist as he started the recession and probably the blight to

[Piecake]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Piecake wrote...

As for conflict, Ive always found black and white conflicts a bit dull.  So I am hoping for a bunch of grey where you are just a lighter shade than your enemies.  Since it revolves around a city I have a feeling that that might be the case, queue political intrigue, treason and a lot of backstabbery.  

I've noticed that many 'morally grey' stories are black and off-white.

A Song of Ice and Fire, for example, has a number of clearly bad people with a large number of good but working against one another types.

SPOILERS FOR ASOIAF

i wouldnt call anyone in A Song of Ice and Fire as having any 'black' characters.  I think of that as some evil being evil for the sake of world domination/destruction etc for their own ends.  Certainly the behind the wall stuff seems like it now, but that hasnt played a huge part and it might change in future books.  The closest human character you could make an arguement for-not including secondary characters like Gregor or Vargo Holt- is Cersei, though I think her human failings and her concern over that Bran incident makes her grey.  Dark grey, but grey.

I dont think you can consider Twyin that type of character.  I think he truly woudl be a competent, if stern ruler, he just does whatever it takes to impose order.  Joffery is a psycho, but he was just a little brat and he's dead anyways.  As for good characters, the only one left alive is probably the wolf on the wall.

END

Modifié par Piecake, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[GameBoyish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

In Dragon Age 2 we have... a mystery! We know that Hawke will become the Champion of Kirkwall, but what is the central conflict for the story? Who is our main antagonist that Hawke must go against?

"Giant rats? It's like the start of every bad adventure tale my
grandfather used to tell."


I vote Giant Rats as the main antagonists.