885 réponses à ce sujet

[Davasar]

TheMufflon wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Or, maybe I do not wish to argue with the obtuse.

In fact it appears that you do not wish to argue at all, because all you seem to be doing is thinking up new reasons for why you can dismiss the arguments of others without actually considering them.

I have.

When their argument boils down to "imaginations doesnt matter in an RPG".  Imagination does matter.

Cause you know what?  I could buy into what they say as you said.

So lets do that.

Ultimately, I am sitting on a chair, staring at a screen, reading or listening to what some guy wrote or says respectively, and I am clicking mouse and keyboard buttons for no reason other then to see scene changes.

There.  Total reality. 

Should that be my game experience?

Because ultimately, playing a game does nothing for real life other then waste time.

That lacking enough in imagination for everyone?
 

[TheRevanchist]

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
We want our character to communicate, to interact with the world. If that means less choices total then it's a fair trade-off (to us).
In essence: a choice that matters gives more roleplaying freedom than a choice that doesn't.

I hope that makes sense

See bold above.  Myself and others like less choice over all.  You and others want it.

There is the crux of our disconnect.

Thank you for pointing that out.

That has nothing to do with your argument...you are simply leap frogging onto other arguments whenever you realized you lost one.

Or, maybe I do not wish to argue with the obtuse.

No..you simply don't want to admit that the tone you "imagine" your character saying does not mean anything AT ALL to the game.

Hey, just because you dont get as much out of it as I do because of my imagination isnt reason to get mad.

Omg thats my whole point...you ARNT getting more out of this then me...the game does not care what tone you imagine...it only cares about the tone the writers programed that choice with...you are still playing the writers game regardless of how you imagine it otherwise...because you can imagine whatever you want but that does mean anything to the games programing.

Hey, I dont spend my time trying to look behind you curtain like you do.  If that's how you play the game, then fine.

I prefer to take a journey further then most and my imagination is the key.

What arn't you understanding here!? you are incapable of "taking the journey further" because the game has built in limitations that prevent this from happening! It's not how "I choose to play" Thats simply HOW THE GAME IS PLAYED PERIOD. Nothing you do in your mind changes the outcome of the conversations because you are still following the path the writer wants you to follow! You do not have as much choice as you seem to think you do. You can't change the outcome of a book, you can't change the outcome of a game...you can't change anything by simply useing your imagination.

[upsettingshorts]

I think you're making unfair comparisons. Not all books are textbooks or informative nonfiction, and not all film is entertaining fiction. What of documentaries? What of long-form journalism? The idea that the written word is intrinsically valuable strikes me as archaic.

That and I'm also not sure how it's relevant.

[AlanC9]

Revan312 wrote...
....regardless I retain the argument that heavy readers are on a whole more intelligent than heavy video game/movie/tv watchers..

Depends on what 's being read and watched, doesn't it? If someone puts fans of Caprica up against John Grisham's readers, I'm taking TV.

[Davasar]

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
We want our character to communicate, to interact with the world. If that means less choices total then it's a fair trade-off (to us).
In essence: a choice that matters gives more roleplaying freedom than a choice that doesn't.

I hope that makes sense

See bold above.  Myself and others like less choice over all.  You and others want it.

There is the crux of our disconnect.

Thank you for pointing that out.

That has nothing to do with your argument...you are simply leap frogging onto other arguments whenever you realized you lost one.

Or, maybe I do not wish to argue with the obtuse.

No..you simply don't want to admit that the tone you "imagine" your character saying does not mean anything AT ALL to the game.

Hey, just because you dont get as much out of it as I do because of my imagination isnt reason to get mad.

Omg thats my whole point...you ARNT getting more out of this then me...the game does not care what tone you imagine...it only cares about the tone the writers programed that choice with...you are still playing the writers game regardless of how you imagine it otherwise...because you can imagine whatever you want but that does mean anything to the games programing.

Hey, I dont spend my time trying to look behind you curtain like you do.  If that's how you play the game, then fine.

I prefer to take a journey further then most and my imagination is the key.

What arn't you understanding here!? you are incapable of "taking the journey further" because the game has built in limitations that prevent this from happening! It's not how "I choose to play" Thats simply HOW THE GAME IS PLAYED PERIOD. Nothing you do in your mind changes the outcome of the conversations because you are still following the path the writer wants you to follow! You do not have as much choice as you seem to think you do. You can't change the outcome of a book, you can't change the outcome of a game...you can't change anything by simply useing your imagination.

You're wrong.  My imagination can take me further.

Sorry you dont understand.

[TheRevanchist]

Davasar wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Or, maybe I do not wish to argue with the obtuse.

In fact it appears that you do not wish to argue at all, because all you seem to be doing is thinking up new reasons for why you can dismiss the arguments of others without actually considering them.

I have.

When their argument boils down to "imaginations doesnt matter in an RPG".  Imagination does matter.

Cause you know what?  I could buy into what they say as you said.

So lets do that.

Ultimately, I am sitting on a chair, staring at a screen, reading or listening to what some guy wrote or says respectively, and I am clicking mouse and keyboard buttons for no reason other then to see scene changes.

There.  Total reality. 

Should that be my game experience?

Because ultimately, playing a game does nothing for real life other then waste time.

That lacking enough in imagination for everyone?
 

Then why do you even waste money on the games!? why not just stare at a wall and imagion yourself playing a game? because thats going to be the exact same effect....because your imagination has absolutly no effect on the game...so why are you even bothering with the game? just save your money and stare at wall...that your imagination will ACTUALLY affect the story!

[Flurdt Vash]

I Like Cheese

[upsettingshorts]

I get the imagination thing because Sylvius the Mad has explained much more effectively than anyone so far in this recent discussion has demonstrated.

It is a fundamentally different approach. The differences are not capable of being reconciled. One playstyle is no more valid than the other. But surprise surprise, those who inject their imagination into the story will prefer anything that gives them freedom and ambiguity, and those who follow the story as written by the writers will prefer anything that gives them depth and context. In the end, it's not that hard to understand why some folks would prefer a voiceover and some folks don't.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 novembre 2010 - 06:04 .

[TheMufflon]

Revan312 wrote...

I went to the movies last weekend to see Skyline (btw, don't bother with that mess) my sister read a book about female genital mutilation in Africa. I joked to her that I was guaranteed to have a better time and yet I'm almost not sure of that after seeing it.. I do know for a fact however that she gained much more insight and factual information based on what she did as opposed to me.

But what if you'd watched a documentary about female genital mutilation and she'd read a cheap sci-fi novel?

[Davasar]

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Or, maybe I do not wish to argue with the obtuse.

In fact it appears that you do not wish to argue at all, because all you seem to be doing is thinking up new reasons for why you can dismiss the arguments of others without actually considering them.

I have.

When their argument boils down to "imaginations doesnt matter in an RPG".  Imagination does matter.

Cause you know what?  I could buy into what they say as you said.

So lets do that.

Ultimately, I am sitting on a chair, staring at a screen, reading or listening to what some guy wrote or says respectively, and I am clicking mouse and keyboard buttons for no reason other then to see scene changes.

There.  Total reality. 

Should that be my game experience?

Because ultimately, playing a game does nothing for real life other then waste time.

That lacking enough in imagination for everyone?
 

Then why do you even waste money on the games!? why not just stare at a wall and imagion yourself playing a game? because thats going to be the exact same effect....because your imagination has absolutly no effect on the game...so why are you even bothering with the game? just save your money and stare at wall...that your imagination will ACTUALLY affect the story!

Oddly enough, I like to read.  I like good stories, and I like video games.  When they all come together, I like to see how they guide my imagination.

Is that so hard to understand?

[TheRevanchist]

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
We want our character to communicate, to interact with the world. If that means less choices total then it's a fair trade-off (to us).
In essence: a choice that matters gives more roleplaying freedom than a choice that doesn't.

I hope that makes sense

See bold above.  Myself and others like less choice over all.  You and others want it.

There is the crux of our disconnect.

Thank you for pointing that out.

That has nothing to do with your argument...you are simply leap frogging onto other arguments whenever you realized you lost one.

Or, maybe I do not wish to argue with the obtuse.

No..you simply don't want to admit that the tone you "imagine" your character saying does not mean anything AT ALL to the game.

Hey, just because you dont get as much out of it as I do because of my imagination isnt reason to get mad.

Omg thats my whole point...you ARNT getting more out of this then me...the game does not care what tone you imagine...it only cares about the tone the writers programed that choice with...you are still playing the writers game regardless of how you imagine it otherwise...because you can imagine whatever you want but that does mean anything to the games programing.

Hey, I dont spend my time trying to look behind you curtain like you do.  If that's how you play the game, then fine.

I prefer to take a journey further then most and my imagination is the key.

What arn't you understanding here!? you are incapable of "taking the journey further" because the game has built in limitations that prevent this from happening! It's not how "I choose to play" Thats simply HOW THE GAME IS PLAYED PERIOD. Nothing you do in your mind changes the outcome of the conversations because you are still following the path the writer wants you to follow! You do not have as much choice as you seem to think you do. You can't change the outcome of a book, you can't change the outcome of a game...you can't change anything by simply useing your imagination.

You're wrong.  My imagination can take me further.

Sorry you dont understand.

No...for god sake....YOU ARE WRONG! the ONLY way your imagination will "take you farther" is if you just daydream the entire game yourself while stareing at a wall...because that is the only way it will have effect!

[Leonia]

If it were a sandbox game with unlimited tools for the player to create their own world.. sure you could run wild with your imagination. At the end of the day, Origins was a linear game, regardless of what order you do the main plot points in and the dialogue is set by the writers. Now we have a voice to go along with our protagonist. Ok, but how is it really any different than before? You still are limited to the same options to respond with on the dialogue screen. You're not really going to get a free-for-all RP experience in a game where you aren't writing your own dialogue. You can get close, sure, but at the end of the day we are at the writers' mercy here.

I use my imagination when I write fanfiction or draw sketches of my characters saying and doing things beyond the realm of what is offered to us with the dialogue choices in the game. But while I am playing, I am not RPing the full extent of my character because I don't have all the options that my imagination posseses at my dispoal.  Origins has inspired me a great deal and often times when I am not playing the game I am thinking of things that the characters could have said or done during the game's plot or afterwards or before or whenever. But it will never impact my in-game experience because I can't just go inserting my own dialogue every where (well you probably could with the toolset but it would be one hell of an annoying exercise to do just for your own personal fulfillment).

Modifié par leonia42, 22 novembre 2010 - 06:10 .

[Atakuma]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I get the imagination thing because Sylvius the Mad has explained much more effectively than anyone so far in this recent discussion has demonstrated.

It is a fundamentally different approach. The differences are not capable of being reconciled. One playstyle is no more valid than the other. But surprise surprise, those who inject their imagination into the story will prefer anything that gives them freedom and ambiguity, and those who follow the story as written by the writers will prefer anything that gives them depth and context. In the end, it's not that hard to understand why some folks would prefer a voiceover and some folks don't.

Some day, I wanna grow up to be just like you.

Modifié par Atakuma, 22 novembre 2010 - 06:07 .

[Davasar]

kylecouch wrote...

No...for god sake....YOU ARE WRONG! the ONLY way your imagination will "take you farther" is if you just daydream the entire game yourself while stareing at a wall...because that is the only way it will have effect!

No, I am not wrong.

You aren't going to convince me that my imagination has no bearing on my enjoyment of an RPG.

So drop it.

[TheMufflon]

Enough with the pyramid quotes already!

[TheRevanchist]

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Davasar wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Davasar wrote...

Or, maybe I do not wish to argue with the obtuse.

In fact it appears that you do not wish to argue at all, because all you seem to be doing is thinking up new reasons for why you can dismiss the arguments of others without actually considering them.

I have.

When their argument boils down to "imaginations doesnt matter in an RPG".  Imagination does matter.

Cause you know what?  I could buy into what they say as you said.

So lets do that.

Ultimately, I am sitting on a chair, staring at a screen, reading or listening to what some guy wrote or says respectively, and I am clicking mouse and keyboard buttons for no reason other then to see scene changes.

There.  Total reality. 

Should that be my game experience?

Because ultimately, playing a game does nothing for real life other then waste time.

That lacking enough in imagination for everyone?
 

Then why do you even waste money on the games!? why not just stare at a wall and imagion yourself playing a game? because thats going to be the exact same effect....because your imagination has absolutly no effect on the game...so why are you even bothering with the game? just save your money and stare at wall...that your imagination will ACTUALLY affect the story!

Oddly enough, I like to read.  I like good stories, and I like video games.  When they all come together, I like to see how they guide my imagination.

Is that so hard to understand?

YOu keep jumping arguments to try and avoid deafeat...this is not your argument...your argument is how your imagination guide the game and changes based upon your imagination...you simply refuse to admit you are wrong and simply change your argument to something different.

[Davasar]

Atakuma wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I get the imagination thing because Sylvius the Mad has explained much more effectively than anyone so far in this recent discussion has demonstrated.

It is a fundamentally different approach. The differences are not capable of being reconciled. One playstyle is no more valid than the other. But surprise surprise, those who inject their imagination into the story will prefer anything that gives them freedom and ambiguity, and those who follow the story as written by the writers will prefer anything that gives them depth and context. In the end, it's not that hard to understand why some folks would prefer a voiceover and some folks don't.

Some day, I wanna grow up to be just like you.

And yet when I tried to say "to each their own" as it were, as this person did, I was told I was "wrong".

....So weird.

[Davasar]

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

No...for god sake....YOU ARE WRONG! the ONLY way your imagination will "take you farther" is if you just daydream the entire game yourself while stareing at a wall...because that is the only way it will have effect!

No, I am not wrong.

You aren't going to convince me that my imagination has no bearing on my enjoyment of an RPG.

So drop it.

Read.

[TheMufflon]

Davasar wrote...

And yet when I tried to say "to each their own" as it were, as this person did, I was told I was "wrong".

....So weird.

It's not weird at all; what people objected to wasn't that you had your opinion, but that you misrepresented their's.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 22 novembre 2010 - 06:10 .

[Revan312]

For a final post on reading and it's link to intelligence..

What Reading Does for the Mind

It's basing it's findings on not just what is read but just general reading volume.

Some quotes from a newsletter about it if you don't feel like looking through the study.

In studying reading volume over against more general abilities such as IQ, it was found “that even when performance is statistically equated for reading comprehension and general ability, reading volume is still a very powerful predictor of vocabulary and knowledge differences. …and is not simply an indirect indicator of ability.”

Reading volume explained the differences in several other measures of smartness: HS grade average, IQ tests, SAT-type math tests, adult reading tests, a Practical Knowledge test, and misinformation about the population of world religions. It was not surprising to find that TV exposure was related to misinformation. It was even found that reading volume can help to compensate for the effects of aging.

“This is a stunning finding because it means that students who get off to a fast start in reading are more likely to read more over the years, and, furthermore, this very act of reading can help children compensate for modest levels of IQ by building their vocabulary and general knowledge. In other words, IQ is not the only variable that counts in making a child smarter. Those who read a lot will enhance the IQ that they were born with; that is, reading will make them smarter.”

“A positive dimension of our research is that all of our studies have demonstrated that reading yields significant dividends for everyone - not just for the ‘smart kids’ or the more able readers. Even the child with limited reading and comprehension skills will build vocabulary and cognitive structures through reading.”

Modifié par Revan312, 22 novembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Davasar]

TheMufflon wrote...

Davasar wrote...

And yet when I tried to say "to each their own" as it were, as this person did, I was told I was "wrong".

....So weird.

It's not weird at all; what people objected to wasn't that you had your opinion, but that you misrepresented their's.

And yet I have kylecouch here telling me I am "wrong" in saying my imagination lets me enjoy the game more.

lol.

Weird.

[TheRevanchist]

Davasar wrote...

Davasar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

No...for god sake....YOU ARE WRONG! the ONLY way your imagination will "take you farther" is if you just daydream the entire game yourself while stareing at a wall...because that is the only way it will have effect!

No, I am not wrong.

You aren't going to convince me that my imagination has no bearing on my enjoyment of an RPG.

So drop it.

Read.

I don't need to...because you simply do not know how to debate.

[Morroian]

Davasar wrote...

And yet when I tried to say "to each their own" as it were, as this person did, I was told I was "wrong".

You've quite clearly been putting a pejorative slant on those with different opinions.

[Davasar]

Revan312 wrote...

For a final post on reading and it's link to intelligence..

What Reading Does for the Mind

It's basing it's findings on not just what is read but just general reading volume.

Some quotes from a newsletter about it if you don't feel like looking through the study.

In studying reading volume over against more general abilities such as IQ, it was found “that even when performance is statistically equated for reading comprehension and general ability, reading volume is still a very powerful predictor of vocabulary and knowledge differences. …and is not simply an indirect indicator of ability.”

Reading volume explained the differences in several other measures of smartness: HS grade average, IQ tests, SAT-type math tests, adult reading tests, a Practical Knowledge test, and misinformation about the population of world religions. It was not surprising to find that TV exposure was related to misinformation. It was even found that reading volume can help to compensate for the effects of aging.

“This is a stunning finding because it means that students who get off to a fast start in reading are more likely to read more over the years, and, furthermore, this very act of reading can help children compensate for modest levels of IQ by building their vocabulary and general knowledge. In other words, IQ is not the only variable that counts in making a child smarter. Those who read a lot will enhance the IQ that they were born with; that is, reading will make them smarter.”

“A positive dimension of our research is that all of our studies have demonstrated that reading yields significant dividends for everyone - not just for the ‘smart kids’ or the more able readers. Even the child with limited reading and comprehension skills will build vocabulary and cognitive structures through reading.”

Nice information.

Thanks.

[Apollo Starflare]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think you're making unfair comparisons. Not all books are textbooks or informative nonfiction, and not all film is entertaining fiction. What of documentaries? What of long-form journalism? The idea that the written word is intrinsically valuable strikes me as archaic.
That and I'm also not sure how it's relevant.

Beat me to it really, well said.

@Davasar: I havn't followed the whole debate but... mute the game and imagine what Hawke says based on the paraphrase? Or have subtitles on and imagine that? Hell you can turn voices down alone, so if you wanted to only stretch your beast of an imagination to voices you could still take in the more basic sensual experience of hearing swords clash and fireballs explode. Really a good imagination can easily find it's way around any of the supposed obstacles being mentioned here, not to mention that at the end of the day the words are all pre-written anyway with a set tone in mind.